[Deck] Aggro Loam

I was testing Assault main and board before Eldrazi became a thing and it was pretty solid in matchups like Delver and D&T as an extra way to mow down their guys if they dealt with Punishing Fire before I settled on Cabal Pit (which I'm now cutting). It's also not awful if you're concerned about Blood Moon, and puts durdly decks on a pretty tight clock. The downsides are that RRR can be hard to set up if you're also trying to get Liliana out, it's not much better than Stormbind without Loam (and probably harder to cast to boot), it can be Revokered, and it doesn't deal with large creatures like Eldrazi and Goyfs as well as other options while being notably slower than other removal options. I think it could be great as a 1-2 of in the 75, but it seems worse than squeezing in something like another Kolaghan's Command, which has been gas every time I've drawn it. For the record, Pit ultimately got the nod because it's a black source and didn't lower the land count.

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Originally Posted by sdematt

Yes, but Countryside is obviously now hot garbage. Seismic Assault seems like it could still be a thing.

Kronberger really pushed the deck into existence last year in Europe, and it's the 4C Loam lists people are playing now, basically.

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I agree. Kronbergers list is probably within 3 cards of most people's current lists. As much as I hate to say it, Jeff Hoogland also had a burning wish build going for some time but no one seems to be on that build anymore. The mana base would definitely need to be changed to accommodate RRR- likely some number of Graven Cairns to assist casting Liliana / Seismic. I'm on a Kronberger style list with DD / Thespian's. Did you have a list in mind? Naya / Jund / 4C?

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Originally Posted by sdematt

Anyone still trying to jam old school, non-Kronberger Loam? :P


-Matt

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I can't say I've tried anything out, but I would love to power out Avalanche Riders again.

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Originally Posted by sdematt

Yes, but Countryside is obviously now hot garbage. Seismic Assault seems like it could still be a thing.

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How dare you sully the name of the great H. Ross Perot?!?!

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Originally Posted by sdematt

Yes, but Countryside is obviously now hot garbage. Seismic Assault seems like it could still be a thing.

Kronberger really pushed the deck into existence last year in Europe, and it's the 4C Loam lists people are playing now, basically.

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I'd be interested in experimenting with this, but in order for this to work you have to be able to justify sacrificing access to the best cards in your strategy (Knight, Teeg, sideboard cards) for a more stable manabase. Assault could still be worth it, but Liliana is a powerful control/attrition piece and there's no real gains in mana efficiency going from a four-color manabase to a three-color one that has to support BBRRRG at various points in the game.

Actually, I wonder if the new Nissa has any merit. Her +1 and -2 can generate board presence from nowhere and her ultimate is legitimately good. She could do scary things in conjunction with Worm Harvest, a card that's long been good when it got going but was held back by the speed with which that was achieved.

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Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies

I'd be interested in experimenting with this, but in order for this to work you have to be able to justify sacrificing access to the best cards in your strategy (Knight, Teeg, sideboard cards) for a more stable manabase. Assault could still be worth it, but Liliana is a powerful control/attrition piece and there's no real gains in mana efficiency going from a four-color manabase to a three-color one that has to support BBRRRG at various points in the game.

Actually, I wonder if the new Nissa has any merit. Her +1 and -2 can generate board presence from nowhere and her ultimate is legitimately good. She could do scary things in conjunction with Worm Harvest, a card that's long been good when it got going but was held back by the speed with which that was achieved.

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I'd be interested in any testing results you could generate, but Worm Harvest +Nissa seems a little "Danger of Cool Things" for me, and trying to get 1GG AND 1BB by turn 3-4 is basically impossible without a Diamond unless you're willing to cut yourself off from both white and red. I think Liliana is much too good to cut for new Nissa or Seismic Assault.

I think new Nissa and Worm Harvest give you a way to win the game against control. I don't know that the Nissa-Lili pair belongs in a deck with Assault, though - if you run Punishing Fire instead you can reduce red and then you're mostly black-green, which is easier to build.

That said, I don't know if it really matters all that much. Assault gives you a way to win too, but it requires Loam and it requires a couple of turns and it requires making some sacrifices in your mana. With Crusher being hot garbage and no access to Knight you also don't have a creature-based way to put your opponent into easy burn range. Once upon a time, New Nissa would have been excellent for her ability to let your Tarmogoyfs eat their Tarmogoyfs in combat, but the era where that's a relevant consideration is long past.

I can confirm Crusher is hot grabage-I tried a few lists with him relatively recently in both a Jund list (literally 0-4 at my weekly) and a Naya list. I would 100% rather play Terravore for "Big stupid CMC3 dude that isn't Knight". While I'm here, I will say that I crushed people with the Terravore playing Naya.

So for a Red-oriented list, your "payoff" card is basically either Seismic or Devastating Dreams, the latter of which I'm much more interested in. Its been on my radar to test a Dreams-centric list but I've been busy playing other decks.

I thought about a traditional oldschool list at the beginning of playing this deck too but at the end of the day I just had to recognize that the old Seimic Assault/Devastating dreams list is just way less flexible and more dependent on Loam...You just have a strict worse MU against Combo decks because you just lose this Zenith, Ooze, Teeg, Sage package...GY hate like RIP or Surgical just hurts you alot more than with the Kronberger list...

So you get powerhouse cards like Assault/Dreams which are absolutley king in creature based MU´s and even good against Miracles (When you can Keep CB of the board!) but you lose alot of flexibility in a variety of other MU´s...

The other thing is that nowadays people have way more natural weapons for the Loam/Assault Combo in form of Abrupt Decay, Phyrexian Revoker, Zentih packages, Councils Judgement, Wear//Tear etc...

I played a traditinal Jund Loam list years ago (Survival/Vengevine era) for a long time and the Assault/Loam/Dreams engine was just huge but today the game has evolved and how I said earlier we have just way more hate for it, so at the end of the day I think it´s not really a stronger or even build to the Kronberger list...We got Abrupt Decay but thats it...

Edit: When I would play the Assault/Dreams list I would definitly go with Knights nevertheless (He just improves the Combo MU´s like Sneak & Show or Reanimator), every other option is just strict worse and way less flexible. And he´s really managable even in a heavy R list with assault especially with Mox Diamonds...Tried it out couple years ago...

With all this talk or extra wincons/more resilient threats I was wondering if any one had tested Centaur Vinecrasher? I know the Sylvan Plug/Sylvan Stompy deck was trying him out as a one of and some people seemed the have decent results with it.

On another note how do people feel about the Eldrazi stompy match up? I've only played against it a few times but it seems like a very easy match up for us. I think the only game I've lost was like Eye into x2 Mimic, then ancient tomb into a thoughtknot seer.

Vinecrusher seems like the best threat of all the extras that have been proposed, though I'd still rather have an MD Kolaghan's Command.

As for Eldrazi - I think our matchup against them is strong. Shardless's is definitely better, but we've got so much good stuff against them and we have fewer dead lock pieces preboard, so unless they have a crazy Mimic draw they usually can't keep up.

Does anyone actively stream with this deck? I've been having AWFUL results in Leagues with a fairly standard build. It feels as though I'm either mulliganing incorectly, or I'm just completely incompetent. However, I've been on and off with the deck since the lead up to GP SEATAC, and felt comfortable with it at the GP.

Really feel that watching someone in action with it would help me a lot if it exists.

Crusher is garbage as a beater, but that was never the point of having him in the deck. The point was that he tutored for a business spell every turn in a deck that ran 25+ lands. That he got huge in doing so was just icing on the cake before every deck was making shitloads of tokens.

Speaking of Nissa, did anyone ever try the Origins version? Decent etb trigger, pretty easy to flip, +1 is great, can protect herself, ultimate probably wins, and easy to cast.

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Originally Posted by Richard Cheese

Speaking of Nissa, did anyone ever try the Origins version? Decent etb trigger, pretty easy to flip, +1 is great, can protect herself, ultimate probably wins, and easy to cast.

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I mean, having seven lands on the battlefield is rarely a good thing and an overcosted basic Forest tutor is basically worthless.

I was thinking something along the lines of:

4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Terravore
1 Eternal Witness


2 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Life from the Loam
3 Seismic Assault
2 Burning Wish
2 Devastating Dreams
3 Punishing Fire
4 Mox Diamond
3 Sylvan Library
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Abrupt Decay
37

3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Forgotten Cave
2 Bayou
2 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Karakas
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
3 Wasteland
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Volrath's Stronghold
24

1 Worm Harvest
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Meltdown
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Regrowth
1 Hull Breach
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Life from the Loam
2 Sphere of Resistance
3 Thoughtseize
1 Scavenging Ooze

But obviously without Knight to stabilize the manabase. Could be easy enough to just shove Goyfs in and call it a day.

Has anyone tried a purely Junk colored version?


4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
2 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Life from the Loam
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Toxic Deluge
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Sylvan Library
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
2 Barren Moor
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Dark Depths
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Thespian's Stage

Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Containment Priest
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Choke
1 Maelstorm Pulse
1 Golgari Charm
1 Engineered Plague


Knight is always quite good with Deluge, often surviving no matter how much life you pay (at least vs non fatty cheat decks). Inspiration came from Kronberger.dec and this Caleb Durward article

Played in a 6 round tournament yesterday, went 4-2 and lost my win and in with both losses coming against Eldrazi. I don't think this deck can ever beat their average draw of turn 1 mimic, turn 2 seer and turn 3 smasher if they are on the play and it felt like this happened more often than I expected. Even a steady stream of 4/4s and 5/5s starting from turn 3 or 4 with their "slow" draws felt really tough to deal with as your only creature that can block and not die are the Knights and well, they have more fatties than you have Knights. Not too sure how to sideboard properly as the two lists I played against were fairly different, one had a lot of punishing fire and abrupt decay targets, the other did not so it just felt very frustrating. Maybe we might have to revert to playing Devastating Dreams again? ugh....

All of my wins otherwise felt fairly easy. Won against ANT, Dredge, 4c Delver and Infect.

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Originally Posted by pocari79

Played in a 6 round tournament yesterday, went 4-2 and lost my win and in with both losses coming against Eldrazi. I don't think this deck can ever beat their average draw of turn 1 mimic, turn 2 seer and turn 3 smasher if they are on the play and it felt like this happened more often than I expected. Even a steady stream of 4/4s and 5/5s starting from turn 3 or 4 with their "slow" draws felt really tough to deal with as your only creature that can block and not die are the Knights and well, they have more fatties than you have Knights. Not too sure how to sideboard properly as the two lists I played against were fairly different, one had a lot of punishing fire and abrupt decay targets, the other did not so it just felt very frustrating. Maybe we might have to revert to playing Devastating Dreams again? ugh....

All of my wins otherwise felt fairly easy. Won against ANT, Dredge, 4c Delver and Infect.

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I did not played the MU till now with this deck but the only way I see losing to it is when they're OTP and go T1 Mimic, T2 Seer, T3 Smasher and we have a slow start without Mox. If we're OTP and have a fast Mox opener with Decay, Lili & Knight for example we are definitely in the driver seat I think.
But yes seems like you got crushed by they're perfect starts...

Sideboarding depends on your build but if your playing the Kronberger list I would board like this:

- 4 Chalice of the Void
- 1 Gaddock Teeg

+ 2 Thoughtseize (We both board out Chalice for sure...)
+ 1 Toxic Deluge
+ 1 Reclamation Sage
+ 1 Maelstrom Pulse

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Originally Posted by Manipulato

I did not played the MU till now with this deck but the only way I see losing to it is when they're OTP and go T1 Mimic, T2 Seer, T3 Smasher and we have a slow start without Mox. If we're OTP and have a fast Mox opener with Decay, Lili & Knight for example we are definitely in the driver seat I think.
But yes seems like you got crushed by they're perfect starts...

Sideboarding depends on your build but if your playing the Kronberger list I would board like this:

- 4 Chalice of the Void
- 1 Gaddock Teeg

+ 2 Thoughtseize (We both board out Chalice for sure...)
+ 1 Toxic Deluge
+ 1 Reclamation Sage
+ 1 Maelstrom Pulse

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That's exactly how I sideboarded. I did mulligan aggressively as I kept on getting hands where I couldn't do anything until turn 3 and I think if you are not able to make plays like turn 2 cast a 3 drop or turn 2 cast a bob + wasteland something, you will be extremely behind as all of their creatures are just bigger than yours. Feels like an uphill battle right now, need to test this matchup for sure.

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Originally Posted by pocari79

That's exactly how I sideboarded. I did mulligan aggressively as I kept on getting hands where I couldn't do anything until turn 3 and I think if you are not able to make plays like turn 2 cast a 3 drop or turn 2 cast a bob + wasteland something, you will be extremely behind as all of their creatures are just bigger than yours. Feels like an uphill battle right now, need to test this matchup for sure.

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Would playing a maindeck pulse over a abrupt decay with another pulse in the board help improve the matchup.