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Oh I remember people talking about that deck. Wasn't it also a Standstill and/or Gifts/Loam deck?Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
Whatever it was, it always seemed to be trying to do too many things at once, and thus did none of them well. What does Jace, VClique, or EE up to 4 give us that we don't already have? Jace draw, that's it. But Sylvan and SDT, along side other card advantage sources in the deck can keep us full of cards in hand
What are the valid options for lifegain in the board? I'm curious because I'm starting to seriously build The Rock for legacy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirrislegend
My guess would be:
Timely Reinforcements
Extra copies of Scavenging Ooze
Kitchen Finks
Anything else? Would Circle of Protection: Red be worth looking at if I expected to see a lot of U/R Delver or Burn?
@Mr. Safety
As stated before, ur delver has a better MU for us than burn, because it has "less" burn spells to make room for delver, cantrips and counterspells. We can deal better with creatures on the field than burns on our opponent's hand. I'm yet to test more against UR, but for monored, point discards, hymn and liliana usually do. I also run conversion on my sb, but don't take it as a parameter since my sb has a tutor package (then I run choke, conversion, deed plague, etc).
I also have a question for you all: is 3 top + 1 library too much? Should I take one of them away to add a second IoK, thus running 5 point discards?
It's the fear was sooooooo cool! It was a psycatog deck that dropped tog in favor of goyf. It ran counterbalance/intuition/Loam and turned out to be too slow at anything it did. It basically was mono blue with splashes for the best cards at the time.
For burn try gerrards verdict, it hits burn by discarding lands yourself and also hits combo and other land light decks; I would imagine timely reenforcemants is the best card for the slot though, if only it had a "if you have less lands than an opponent" clause.
P.S. glissa/EE out of the board is a house against creature decks.... They could be taking the infest/deed/persicution slots in my board.
On top/library: 4 is generally considered a correct number of library manipulation but it is, in most cases, a 2/2 split. If you wanted to shave off a card, then 1/2 top/library seems better
@Lavafrogg
Do you play cockatrice? If so, this weekend did you play against a BG pox then against a Rock?
My current list, seeking feedback and sideboard suggestions (please!):
4x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Terravore
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Tarmogoyf
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Eternal Witness
1x Birds of Paradise
3x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Pernicious Deed
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Life from the Loam
4x Raven's Crime
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Duress
1x Profane Command
1x Sylvan Library
3x Wasteland
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Bayou
1x Scrubland
1x Savannah
1x Dryad Arbor
3x Tranquil Thicket
3x Barren Moor
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Forest
1x Swamp
1x Plains
1x Treetop Village
1x Maze of Ith
Answers to burn decks vary based on what you're playing. Running Moxen and GSZ? Play Finks. Running Stoneforge? Laugh at them. Timely is an effective answer if you don't play Stoneforge nor acceleration. Playing ETutor board? Obviously Warmth.
Scav Ooze is not an optimal answer, to be honest. Yes, it can be good against them, but is slightly too slow to be truely effective.
On SDT/Library split: 3/1 seems excessive, as multiple Tops usually suck. I'd try for 2/2. The decision between 3/1 and 2/1 + IoK can only be made via personal preference and testing
@MrSafety:
You seem to be in DIRE need of Mox Diamond. It is perfect for your deck. -2 Deed (4 StP, 3 Pulse will suffice for removal), -2 Duress (recurring Raven's Crime covers discard well), +4 Mox Diamond. Probably up the land count a smidge too.
Sughayyer- I'm out of town this week but my best friend uses my account to play. According to him he played all weekend, my list. How did he do?
Yes! Someone playing more life from the loams!! I am a full supporter of GWB loam decks but I have to say there is not reason not to play 4 Dark Confidant especially in any deck that plays so many mana sources.
It doesn't have confidant?! Holy crap how'd I miss thatQuote:
Originally Posted by lavafrogg
I think that deck needs to be Dark Horizons or Rock, not attempting to be both at the same time and thus losing many power cards
Hey Mr Safety. Some things to think about.
Currently your list has 12.5 creatures
This is typically fine but, you've also brought into play 4x Loam. Loam does means you'll have infinite Treetop Villages and Dryad Arbors (barring hate) but, it also means that, any creature dredged, can be considered gone for good. Granted, you do have command and Witness but those can be dredged. If you dredge the command, you pretty much have to get witness asap to make sure you don't lose all of your win-cons. If you dredge the witness, you're down to praying. Volrath's Stronghold wouldn't be a bad idea to fix the issue.Quote:
Every deck that plays Loam 'effectively' has something to do with the extra lands (Assualt, Mox, Liliana, etc). Raven's crime is nice but once they're in topdeck mode you can't expect to Loam for much profit anymore. - I'm aware that the cycle lands are helpful in that matter but I think it may be a better idea to try and limit the amount of things you're spending your mana on. - You're a mana hungry deck, it may be more help to incorporate a way to either play extra lands or take advantage of the extras in hand beyond the crime.
The creature base is it's susceptibility to mass effects (I'm going to clump a bunch into the removal category). I don't mean things like Wrath and Terminus (since they hit almost every creature) but Perish (really good against you) and to a lesser extent Tormod's Crypt are extremely effective against you. If someone pops a Relic: 2 of your creatures will die, 4 will become 2/2's, 1 will become a 0/1 and 1 will become a 'vanilla' 2/1. That's 8 of 12.5 creatures. The surviving creatures can rebuild but, limiting the effectiveness of hate may be more helpful.
On burn hate, with your list I would run the Enlightened Tutor (e.tutor) package. You have a high cmc for your spells and the e.tutor package can give you plays to make in the early turns.
Yeah, second comment: you need a stronghold in your list. Third thing: four mox diamonds, with. Four loams they have almost no drawback. I would suggest looking at my Liam Rick list from. A few pages back or searching for my aggro dirt thread.
This is how I will refer to Loam Rock decks from now onQuote:
Originally Posted by lavafrogg
Lavafrogg, if we are talking about the same person, I won 2-0 playing bg pox (also, check out my post in that thread, you might like it since you are a fan of loam rock), but when I played Dark Horizons I made a stupid mistake and he took over, making 1-0.Quote:
Originally Posted by lavafrogg
Tomorrow I'm going to play again at my local shop. Then I'll post news! :D
Thank you for the in-depth comments. I am working on getting the Mox Diamonds now, they were already on my radar screen (considering 4 Loams.)Quote:
Originally Posted by damionblackgear
What do you suggest for creatures given that 8 out of 12 are somewhat tanked to my own synergy (dredging)? I figured Knight/Vore would be the best beaters I could possibly use. As far as Eternal Witness goes, I think of myself as playing 4 functional copies because of Green Sun's Zenith. Witness and Loam are the main reason for using Profane Command...it can be an incredible late-game plan hitting for repeatable damage or just getting my threats back.
Grave hate is an issue, of course. Volrath's Stronghold wasn't on my radar screen, and it's great, but I don't know what to do against Relics/Crypts. Pithing Needle? Phyrexian Revoker? I'm quite open to suggestions for boarding an answer to grave hate.
I am not using Dark Confidant because I opted for the slower but less painful Loam/cycle lands. I'm not opposed to Confidant but I'd probably rework the deck to include Kitchen Finks x4. Sylvan Library is also another option for digging for extra cards when I have the life to spare.
This is my revised list that I'm considering using, with a rough sideboard included, based on suggestions here:
4x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Terravore
1x Tarmogoyf
1x Birds of Paradise
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Eternal Witness
3x Mox Diamond
3x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Life from the Loam
1x Sylvan Library
2x Profane Command
3x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Swords to Plowshares
3x Raven's Crime
4x Duress
3x Wasteland
1x Volrath's Stronghold
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Marsh Flats
2x Bayou
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
1x Maze of Ith
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Treetop Village
1x Dryad Arbor
3x Tranquil Thicket
3x Barren Moor
1x Swamp
1x Forest
(yes, I realize that is 61 cards...the 61st card is Volrath's Stronghold)
Sideboard:
1x Bojuka Bog
4x Pithing Needle
3x Kitchen Finks
2x Pernicious Deed
4x Tidehollow Sculler
1x Infest
Sculler is strictly for the combo matchup, giving my discard teeth. Testing it to see what becomes of it.
Still looking for feedback, and I'm receptive to anyone with a good amount of experience with Rock in legacy. I'm especially looking for folks who use Loam.
Other cards on my mind to put to use:
Smallpox
Bloodghast
Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Liliana of the Veil
Armageddon
Liliana specifically is on my mind...I would love a way to squeeze her in there. With the Moxen, I'm not sure I have room...feedback appreciated!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
If you want to run ghast, smallpox, liliana, then you could go BG. There's a nice array of options, like innocent blood and worm harvest - but then, I think it'll become a totally different deck.
Also, Mr. Safety, I *think* you can move bojuka bog to the main deck - I did it and it pays: on the first games I played in here in wich I used it maindeck, I was able to surprise a few opponents and get some advantage (or outright victory). But, it's just a suggestion.
Finally, about mox/liliana: it is great to be able to cast liliana on turn 2, and exceeding moxen are excellent pinches for her +1 ability.
Hope my post wasn't too confusing, it's late at night and I'm sleepy :tongue:
This is my Liam Rick lust(what the hell auto correct?), I have played everything from the eternal witness/small pox plan to terravore and SFM. The problem with BG loam lists is that it doesn't do anything that strong. Lilliana does everything that the whole deck wants to do and still leaves room for the rest of the deck.
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf(don't leave home without him)
4 Dark Confidant(kill this guy now)
3 Qasali Pridemage
Planeswalkers: 3
3 Liliana of the Veil
Spells: 18
4 Life from the Loam
4 Mox diamond
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Swords to plowshares
Land: 24
3 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Nantuko Monastery/maze of ith
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Wasteland
2 Tranquil Thicket
3 Barren Moor
Sideboard: 15
3 Choke
3 Extirpate
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Terravore
What happened right now is that I have moved the GSZ main and cut loams down to a 1/1 main side split. Green Sun's Zenith is the real deal right now and is just as much a 4 of as confidant is to me. You need a real reason to run 4x loam and the interactions with knight, Lilliana, mox and wasteland is a great reason without limiting yourself to playing sub par cards like smallpox...
What MU will you bring in GSZ? I always thought that these should be in main.Quote:
Originally Posted by lavafrogg
When I play this list I bring in the GSZ package to sidestep Loam hate in that I can cut down to 1-2 loams against decks where the game won't go long enough for Loam to matter. See the targets for the matchups it comes in for. Teeg is for combo, Ooze is for reanimator/dredge, terravore is to crush knight decks seeing how he is bigger than most knights.Quote:
Originally Posted by Angels
I did find that GSZ does not play that well with Loam as a 4 of and until the format slows down again or a new card gets played with an awesome effect with "discard a card" as a cost. My loams will be either in the board or in my box...
I am running a 1/1 split right now due to all of the positive interactions with my list. A resolved Loam also helps against RUG and Maverick due to the mana disruption that the top two decks pack.
Hey guys! I won today's (tonight's) tournament. Playing this list:
3 thoughtseize
2 inquisition of kozilek
4 hymn to tourach
3 maelstrom pulse
4 swords to plowshares
2 sensei's divining top
3 mox diamond
1 sylvan library
3 dark confidant
4 tarmogoyf
4 knight of the reliquary
2 liliana of the veil
1 elspeth, knight-errand
SB:
2 enlightened tutor
2 pernicious deed
1 engineered plague
1 conversion
1 choke
1 nihil spellbomb
1 surgical extraction
1 extirpate
1 infest
1 life from the loam
2 duress
1 thrunn, the last troll
a few decks present were: 3 sneak & show, 3 or 4 TES, 1 merfolks, 1 goblins, 1 esper blade, 1 br reanimator (very funny deck with a funny combo in it, involving necrotic ooze, phyrexian devourer and triskelavus), 2 gw, a br aggro deck that ran kiln fiend and blightning, an ur delver, and I forgot the rest
round 1: show & tell
game 1 I had my hymn misdirected (the forst of four of the night), he s&t a griselband while i put a knight. he draws a lot. I am too coky and get the karakas soon. next turn he s&t a sneak attack for grisel and emrakul. Yummy.
game 2 my seize gets countered, i wasteland him and then I cast surgical on his volcanic, so I can see his hand. nothing scary, then I proceed on knight, he starts working, I win.
game 3 I don't remember very well, but I had a discard misdirected (so nice). Nevertheless, I manage to put enough pressure and resolve enough disrupts to win the game.
round 2: show & tell (part II - the mission)
g1 he doesn't find anything - ANYTHING - and I win.
g2 Misdirection on inquisition. It's so nice. And he manages to play griselband with sneak attack. he draws 14 cards, swings, draws 7.... you all know the rest.
g3 was a bit tough, but I was able to disrupt, wastelock and pressure him. By the time he S&T a griselband I had liliana online, and there wasn't much to do since bob and goyf were punishing him.
round 3: TES
g1 I mulligan in search for a single discard, and I find none. He starts with a duress on my liliana, I dont draw anything useful, he starts his ad nauseam and wins.
g2 I could find some discards this time (funny in a deck that runs 11 +2 lilianas) but he was too fast and had the right draws.
round 4: TES
g1 i mulligan searching for discards again, but this time i find a quite decent hand. He silenced me 2 consecutive turns, really refreshing. afer that he goes off on me.
g2 tourach on tun 1, then waste, then bob. then, liliana, seize, and another discard from liliana ends the game.
g3 the disruptions worked out this time, hitting 2 discard spells. Then I leave him woth no lands, move to beatdown with a bob and 2 goyfs.
round 5: merfolks
he agreed on conceeding to me - it was quite late and we had to go home (São Paulo is a really big city but we don't have buses or subway all night long).
My list is basically the same as always - only -1 top + 1 inquisition main deck, and a few changes to side. Sometimes I wish I had 4 mox diamonds. Sometimes I wish I had 4 bobs. But I don't know what to take away.
And of course, being hit by your own hymns to tourach and winning brings an exceeding ammount of joy :tongue:
Again, thanks for all your support and oppinions!