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In a four color build and also having problems with tokens + our soft locks means IMO Engineered Explosives has definite application in the matchup. Yeah, aggro has a little bit of difficulty utilizing it but I think it application against us, if you can get it to resolve.
-ABC
So, as the SCG 5K in Milwaukee approaches this weekend, I'm trying to re-educate myself for Legacy decks, since it's been awhile since I've actually played some matches. Something I remember as being an issue in the past for miracles it the Show and Tell matchup (Either Omni-tell, or more traditional put fatties into play Show and Tell). What do you guys to be your game plan against these types of decks, and what options for the main and/or sideboard can improve this matchup?
Also, how many miracles are too many miracles? (In terms of consistency)
I board out 4 Swords to Plowshares, 3 Terminus and 1 Rest in Peace. Board in 3 Red Elemental Blast, 2 Misdirection, 2 Ethersworn Canonist, 1 Venser, Shaper Savant. Can't loose the match after sideboard, atleast it feels that way, just too easy with all the counters and the flashcreatures.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valtrix
When you say a 4-color, non-Blue deck, I'm imagining something like Jund but with Stoneforge Mystic. That might not be exactly the direction you went, but it seems pretty strong against us. Utilize things like Bloodbraid Elf and Stoneforge to 1. get CA and 2. be able to pressure us without overcommiting. Abrupt Decay should be able to ensure that we don't completely lock you out with Counterbalance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Strassbaw
I think the key to beating Show and Tell consistently is having ORing/Venser effects for the early game and Counterbalance for the late game. I have a DSphere and a Venser main deck, with an ORing and another Venser in the SB. Cast Counterbalance aggressively and use FoW and REB to protect it if they want to fight over it. In the late game, they'll likely have more counter magic than you (especially Omnitell), so you can't rely on just beating them in a fair counter war. Ethersworn Canonist is another good thing to drop off SNT (against Omnitell mostly). Also, I would keep at least 2 Terminus against Sneak Attack.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valtrix
In general? I have had at most 6 in my deck at once (post-board), three Terminus and three Entreat. I haven't had too much trouble. Clique can also help smooth draws.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valtrix
Yep, the mono-blue version is a good matchup. My board is a bit different but that's almost the exact list of cards that come out. Sneak and Show is a bit tougher, as sneak attack can be difficult to interact with.Quote:
Originally Posted by useL
Vs S/T: Get Countertop online and they lose, especially G1. G2 I play a second Helm, ditch the Creaturey things, and pull in all of my Counterspells. Depending on the build I will add my second Enlightened Tutor, and Cliques. Generally the MU doesn't scare me. They can randomly kill you, but that's why I play 4 FoW, and in G2 you have Flusterstorm. The plan for me is just to get a Helm T5, and protect myself until then. Event a blind Helm is fine against the Emrakul builds, as you can tap low (but not necessarily out) and steal random Emrakuls.
EDIT: Does that work properly? I assume that it's a triggered ability and if I do it in their turn I steal their Emrakul, in my turn I get sad and lose my Helm?
It does work properly, regardless of whose turn it is since Helm's putting the creature into play is not a triggered ability because it happens as part of the resolution, whereas Emrakul has a triggered ability upon entering the graveyard. That said, it might take you quite awhile to helm them to Emrakul without RIP, but I suppose it's possible.
Sneak and Show is the difficult one, sometimes their draws are very explosive and consistent with multiple copies. Omni-tell I feel is easier, since they tend to goldfish a lot. If you watch enough Oarsman's Twitch clips, you'll get good at each decision making process in these combo match-ups.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valtrix
Flusterstorm, Swan Song, and maybe Ethersworn Canonist.
At least 2 Terminus and 2 Entreat, then you can up the count depending on the meta, never seen any lists with more than 3 EtA, maybe couple lists with 4 Terminus.
In addition to what everyone else had already said, Clique's are amazing. Drop them early, see what you're up against, and start beating down their life total. If they get down low, Griselbrand becomes a lot less scary. If you run the Legend list with double Karakas and Venser, the matchup is cakewalk.
Meddling Mage is usually the best sideboard card, but it doesn't see as much play is it should.
Do you guys really find Venser to be all that useful? I see a few people running him as a 1-of, but for 4 mana he just seems pretty expensive and card disadvantage when all I'm doing is delaying my opponent's threat, not actually dealing with it. I almost feel like I'd want to run 4 Cliques before I'd even consider the first Venser.* Clique just seems to actually handle cards that are problematic, while being a decent body, and impacting the game a turn sooner.
*Remember, I haven't actually played with Venser or 4 Cliques before
Venser isn't stellar in any matchup, but he's good all around. Say your opponent is attacking with Goyf and a Deathrite. Venser will bounce the Goyf, and kill the Shaman. Also works well against equipped dudes. It works off Show and Tell. It bounces problem enchantments and artifacts (Counterbalance, Batterskull, Choke) to give you another shot at countering them. It's great at dealing with Planeswalkers (just like Clique). In tight situations, you can also use it as a pseudo counterspell. I'd say he's pretty good. His usefulness goes way up if you run 2 Karakas. Like others have said, check out Joe Lossett's stream on twitch. He puts them to good use.
I've been playing a second Venser in my SB for a while, and I find myself bringing him in against just about everything that isn't aggro-control or packed full of burn. Perhaps he isn't the most high impact card I could run, but he is usually good when I draw him. Venser is pretty unfair against SNT and Reanimator, but even just stalling a fair deck for a turn can be a great play.
A week or two ago I was playing against Nic Fit and Entreated for 3 EoT to put him on a two turn clock. I swing once, with Venser and Counterspell in my hand. On his turn, he plays Thoughtseize and tanks for a while before taking the Counterspell and dropping a Deed. I Venser it back, he can't replay it, and I win on my next turn. Sure Venser wasn't the only card that could have helped me there, but having more ways to interact with his potential Maelstrom Pulse or Deed is what allowed me to have a pretty clean win.
Quite often Venser has been great against non-SNT combo as well. Against High Tide, I let a Pact of Negation resolve on my EoT Clique before, only to then main phase bounce his fifth land with Venser. Against ANT, it's particularly tilting to let them storm out, play Infernal, crack their LED, then bounce a land back to their hand to ruin Hellbent (being Duress-proof helps). Jace bouncing my Venser has let me hold off an Enchantress player's Replenish for enough turns to lock the game down.
Venser is rarely super impressive, like everyone else is saying, but he almost always can do something pretty useful. Don't forget he can bounce your own stuff too. I find myself doing this quiet often, when returning a harmful spell to the opponents hand is not good enough. I've saved my Jaces from Pulses, CB from decay, and my karakas from wasteland with venser. He can even let you break through a mom/teeg "lock" if you have another cheap removal spell in hand.
The least you can do, is Venser + Karakas + Top to generate CA. Oarsman has reiterated this usage many times. If you are extremely behind, Venser most likely will not be the bomb that would bring you back even. However, he could keep you ahead when you have a slight edge. Saving your own CB from Abrupt Decay or saving your Karkas from Wasteland sure is nice.
Resolve Venser, target Karakas, retain priority, tap Karakas to bounce Venser... oh the beauty!Quote:
Originally Posted by TheArchitect
I'm having a lot of trouble with the imperial painter match up. I have 7 basics in my deck but that doesnt seem to be enough even on the play. On the draw I fold to a turn 1 magus or actual blood moon everytime, especially in game 1. I tried switching one of my Pyroblasts to Hydros post board, but that is still only good post board. Plus I feel overwhelmed boarding since I want to bring in a bunch of combo hate/EEs/etc but still need to leave in removal, I'm not even sure what to take out. Is it even correct to bring in REB/Pyro banking on them playing the Servant? I feel like this isn't a match up that should be so difficult, but I guess I'm wrong. I forgot to mention that Chandra is nigh impossible to beat barring a BEB/Oring(which I don't always bring in). Any tips?
Terminus is kind of clunky against them. Other than that, most of the MD is pretty good. Counterbalance is really good, but be ready to protect it from REB apocalypse. Unlike most combo, Swords is pretty good too (but watch out for Spellskite). Leyline might be alright to bring in. Entreat is maybe a little on the clunky side if you need more room. RIP is nice against Goblin Welder, but probably not essential. Bringing in REBs yourself and waiting for them to cast Painter is a little on the cute side, but not horrible.... ;pQuote:
Originally Posted by Zllig
I usually bring in 2 REBs, since they can act as Moon removal with a P. Servant on the battlefield. Moreover I recommend playing 2 Wear/Tear in board, those are obviously golden in many MUs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zllig
They dont have to name blue on painter. Their rebs already counter/destroy all your spells they care about. My painter opponent usually names green, which is why i dont board in rebs.