[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

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Originally Posted by Echelon

I've been on 2 Forest for a long time. Trust me, it's fine. I'm @8 green fetch (10 fetch total) & 2 basic Forest. Most games I end up fetching 3 basics before anything else. Most testing I do is vs. Grixis Delver w/ Stifles and D&T - mana denial is not an issue.

Dare to be greedy!

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Against D&T you want as many colored sources as possible, they're going to Wasteland you and Port you, and since the Port's will really screw up your basics, you might as well just go all in on non basics. It's rare they have more than 1 early Wasteland.

Against Delver I disagree though because Wastelands in hand are something they won't be able to play and will instead Brainstorm away. It really screws up their denial plan.

Anyways for the math, if you're on 7 cards it's 77.1% with 11 basic Forests and 73.5% with 10. I try to always be above 75%, ideally I would like another source of a basic Forest and I've messed with the idea of a Misty Rainforest as my 9th Fetch, but I always change my mind because fetching the other basics is important too.

The other part of the argument though is that when you're topping out at 3, Phyrexian Tower offers a smaller benefit. The best thing it does for me is accelerate me to 4 mana to GSZ a Tracker, or an Eternal Witness to get back the Explorer and accelerate again next turn.

Or allow you to drop Deed through a Daze on T2, severly slowing down your opponents board development. Or have nut turns of GSZ for another VetEx, cast double Cabal Therapy and still have mana left to do stuff.

I'm a very greedy bastard in that regard :tongue:.

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Originally Posted by Brael

... but while I'm a pretty good theorist, actual playing experience gives better results to see why something may or may not be good.

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I think 2 forests are indeed fine. I play two as well and was never short on basics.
I play 2/2/2 but have more b spells in general.

If you replace courser with batterskull your xgg spells are reduced to 1 as well.

just consider it during your tournament if u really need the third basis, curious to hear the results.
good luck.

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Originally Posted by cherson

I think 2 forests are indeed fine. I play two as well and was never short on basics.
I play 2/2/2 but have more b spells in general.

If you replace courser with batterskull your xgg spells are reduced to 1 as well.

just consider it during your tournament if u really need the third basis, curious to hear the results.
good luck.

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I used to run 2/2/2, then for awhile I was on 3/2/2 but then I fell in love with Volraths and went to 3/2/1. When Sigarda was 100% in the deck it was 2 Plains/1 Swamp, but I'm not sure now. With the configuration I have now 2 Swamps look to be better game 1, although my SB options make 2 Plains better. If I don't like Tower with the plan of topping out at 3 I may consider going back to 3/2/2, though I love the Tower/Vet combo with a Tracker on board so maybe not.

The only reason you need two plains is realistically Sigarda. If you're not running her, you could cut down to a single plains if you wanted.

I'm in love with 3/2/2, not only due to Summer playability, but how it's run in the past. If you needed to, cutting to 2/2/2 isn't awful.

I currently run 2/2/1, cutting a Plains. I use the extra slot for a Karakas. I haven't had any trouble with it really, since Sigarda isn't a super important card against Wasteland decks and often gets boarded out there. I recognise that it makes me weaker to Lands since its harder to hold up Path against Wastelands + Ports + Loam, but if I'm getting in that sort of situation I'm probably screwed anyway so I try not to worry about it - and Karakas is relevant there although Waste-able, which helps. I do aim Surgical at Waste reasonably frequently.

Short report, pretty disappointing results with SFM. The meta just wasn't favorable this week, in my 4 rounds I played against MUD, Lands, Dredge, and Reanimator. Well, I would have played against Reanimator, I was so disappointed with those pairings that I just left early.

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Originally Posted by Navsi

I currently run 2/2/1, cutting a Plains. I use the extra slot for a Karakas. I haven't had any trouble with it really, since Sigarda isn't a super important card against Wasteland decks and often gets boarded out there. I recognise that it makes me weaker to Lands since its harder to hold up Path against Wastelands + Ports + Loam, but if I'm getting in that sort of situation I'm probably screwed anyway so I try not to worry about it - and Karakas is relevant there although Waste-able, which helps. I do aim Surgical at Waste reasonably frequently.

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I considered that as well but I simply think that u need 6 basics if u run the full set of explorers. often we have to fetch for basics because of wastelands and fetching two basics early stops u using explorer twice. depending on the build we have no way to tutor for karakas which means u might end up with one plain only whereas u need it for many spells.

I play 2/2/2 plus karakas, but I have 3 sfm, sigarda and at least one xww pw main.

You shouldn't be playing a certain number of basics just b/c you run a certain number of Explorers, you should play a certain number of basics b/c that's what you need to execute your gameplan.

If you don't cast cards >4 CMC, you could work off 5 basics regardless of the number of Vet Ex you're running. If you plan to cast cards >5 CMC, you need 6 or more. If you mean to cast Sigarda you need 2 Plains, regardless of whether you run 3 or 4 Vet Ex (and so on and so on).

Thinking you should run 6 basics b/c you run 4 Veteran Explorers is just wrong. As long as you have enough to allow you to execute your gameplan you're fine. So what if an Explorer doesn't get you 2 lands? That means that you already have a certain number of lands on the board (and/or in your hand). This means that in the worst case scenario your Explorers either become library shufflers for your Top/Courser or a body to carry your equipment (if you play any). You should be fine with that.

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Originally Posted by Echelon

You shouldn't be playing a certain number of basics just b/c you run a certain number of Explorers, you should play a certain number of basics b/c that's what you need to execute your gameplan.

If you don't cast cards >4 CMC, you could work off 5 basics regardless of the number of Vet Ex you're running. If you plan to cast cards >5 CMC, you need 6 or more. If you mean to cast Sigarda you need 2 Plains, regardless of whether you run 3 or 4 Vet Ex (and so on and so on).

Thinking you should run 6 basics b/c you run 4 Veteran Explorers is just wrong. As long as you have enough to allow you to execute your gameplan you're fine. So what if an Explorer doesn't get you 2 lands? That means that you already have a certain number of lands on the board (and/or in your hand). This means that in the worst case scenario your Explorers either become library shufflers for your Top/Courser or a body to carry your equipment (if you play any). You should be fine with that.

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but isn't it just better if the explorer can give u two lands instead of one/zero? pushing your tracker/clue/ca synergy. more lands means that u can do more things.
you are right that a low curve doesn't need that many lands but u can still use it to equip, truths, top, clue etc..
if your explorer doesn't get you two lands means that u have 4 basics max (considering u fetched basics only) which is not enough in my opinion. u want to play sfm, equip, pte, top etc..
maybe it's just me because my build still contains rhino and sigarda etc hence I need at least 6 basics just to avoid the wasteland issue which got me several times already.

I am just sharing my experience I have with this deck-

I run 6 too, but not b/c I play 4 Veteran Explorers. I run 6 b/c I need them to cast my stuff. The synergy with Tracker is mostly just a happy coincidence.

Hi!
A little report from my tuesday local tournament. 16 players, 4 rounds. I finish with 2/1/1.
As you can see, I made a full use of the previous advices of yours.

1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Bayou
2 Plains
2 Swamp
3 Forest
3 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Chromanticore
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Doomwake Giant
1 Eternal Witness
2 Eidolon of Blossoms
4 Academy Rector
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Eldrazi Conscription
2 Faith's Fetters
2 Dead Weight
2 Starfield of Nyx
2 Sterling Grove
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 1 Choke
SB: 1 Curse of Death's Hold
SB: 3 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 2 Humility
SB: 1 Aura Shards
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 1 Spirit of the Labyrinth

Round 1 Shardless BUG (splash W) 1-0
Dead weight works well on DRS, Faith's Fetter on Lili/Big crea and deed in complement. Cabal and Lili cleared the way to rector into Starfield.
I have the board and see no way to him to come back. So I let him dig his grave. Ultimately I rector a Eldrazi Conscription for the win. 7 min in the round for game 2.

Side: + 1 Leyline of sanctity + Aura Shards + Spirit of the labyrinth - Eldrazi Conscription - Chromanticore - 1 Eidolon of blossom

Spirit is obvious against Ancestral/brainstorm/Jace. This coming, I choose to get back one of my eidolons.
Eldrazi Conscription get down, because I lost it's secret effect and didn't really need that heavy spell there.
Chromanticore could have stayed in, but had to choose quickly.
I put a leyline in order to protect me against an eventual planeswalker ultimate. Lukily, I drew it in my opening hand.

The game 2 was going in my favor, but clock stopped the round.


Round 2 Painter 1/1/1
Cabal and deed put me in a good condition. Starfield settle things and gave me the first.

Side: - Chromanticore (cause blue) + Aura Shard - 2 Faith's fetters + 2 Leyline

On the second one, I don't remember it well, but it was a fast combo. I think I was in mana death?

The third, I was ahead with Liliana and aura shard at least on the board (I think Starfield or Solid grove too). My opponnent had no more card in hand and a cleared board. But time's up.

Round 3 BUG control 2/0
a bit like the first round

Round 4 Storm 0/2
the first one was lost in advance, just had to hope him to fizzle.

Side: + Spirit + 4 Leyline + 4 extirpate/surgical - 2 dead weigt -2 Faith's Fetters - Chromanticore - Doomwake giant - Starfield - 2 Eidolon

I greedily kept a hand with 1 land, 2 top, 2 surgical and a cabal. Don't remember the last one. I should have be hunting the Leylines.
I miss a blind cabal on Brainstorm, see I. tutor, Dark petition, LED, Probe and cabal + lands. Probe and cabal... It already destroyed me at the first...

So I surgical his prob in response to his cabal (getting a new one he just draw). He named top.
Then during 2 or 3 turn I get my lands, but he played Ad Nauseam successfully. He had dark ritual, LED, both tutor and 3 brainstorm at grave. He got 3 dark ritual, Past in flame, 2 LED, brainstorm and 2 Lotus petal on Ad Nau. So when he plays LED I surgical dark ritual, but he already have enought to go on (2 different tutor, 2 different sources of choice colored mana).


My notes:

Eidolon of blossom are really great no that I play MD both 2 starfield and 2 Solid grove. They are better than Tireless in this list, distributing a good amount of CA ready to use because I don't pay for it.

So, Aura shards didn't was as good as expected. Too many conditions to get full use of it. I chose it to have a new response to needle. I will try Seal of Primordium instead and change one Faith's fetters to one oblivion ring.

I will put back the forth Leyline of sanctity in side too. Probably cut one humility to it.

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Originally Posted by Brael

Short report, pretty disappointing results with SFM. The meta just wasn't favorable this week, in my 4 rounds I played against MUD, Lands, Dredge, and Reanimator. Well, I would have played against Reanimator, I was so disappointed with those pairings that I just left early.

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Shouldn't MUD and dredge be fine, though?

Last time I played I faced tin fins in the last round. Game 1 he plays faithless looting discarding gris and iona... i therapy naming exhume (i didn't know what he was on). He shows 2 reanimates and a shallow grave and hits me for 22 next turn. I win game 2... and then game 3 he kills me before I get a turn, through both force and invasive surgery :frown:

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Originally Posted by Cliq

Shouldn't MUD and dredge be fine, though?

Last time I played I faced tin fins in the last round. Game 1 he plays faithless looting discarding gris and iona... i therapy naming exhume (i didn't know what he was on). He shows 2 reanimates and a shallow grave and hits me for 22 next turn. I win game 2... and then game 3 he kills me before I get a turn, through both force and invasive surgery :frown:

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I don't really think MUD is a good mu for us. Dredge, as it always can be, is a coin toss because it depends on their opener and how fast they can attack. Builds with maindeck DRS and Ooze do even have a chance to fight G1.

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Originally Posted by Cliq

Shouldn't MUD and dredge be fine, though?

Last time I played I faced tin fins in the last round. Game 1 he plays faithless looting discarding gris and iona... i therapy naming exhume (i didn't know what he was on). He shows 2 reanimates and a shallow grave and hits me for 22 next turn. I win game 2... and then game 3 he kills me before I get a turn, through both force and invasive surgery :frown:

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As long as you have no proper board, dredge will win before you play your second land.

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Originally Posted by Cliq

Shouldn't MUD and dredge be fine, though?

Last time I played I faced tin fins in the last round. Game 1 he plays faithless looting discarding gris and iona... i therapy naming exhume (i didn't know what he was on). He shows 2 reanimates and a shallow grave and hits me for 22 next turn. I win game 2... and then game 3 he kills me before I get a turn, through both force and invasive surgery :frown:

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Dredge can go either way, you need to see the right cards. Metalworker decks require lots of removal, which I simply didn't have, the guy who was on it is always on it. A couple weeks ago we played several games too and I only won 1 in 5 or so. It's probably a sign that I need more interaction in general.

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Originally Posted by Brael

Dredge can go either way, you need to see the right cards. Metalworker decks require lots of removal, which I simply didn't have, the guy who was on it is always on it. A couple weeks ago we played several games too and I only won 1 in 5 or so. It's probably a sign that I need more interaction in general.

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I think nic fit is better than most decks against dredge because we run so many sac effects, pernicious deed is actually quite good, and DRS even better. I will lose g1 but 2 & 3 i think I'm favored.

MUD seems to dump its hand, have only one or two real threats, and since they can usually be removed they just sit there until i find a deed and blow up all their mana. I do run Jace, force, strix etc so maybe the blue version is more favored. I will say that if they resolve an ugin, i just lose.

Hey, I'm new to this forum and this is my first post. Nic Fit is the deck I've been building and testing for the past yearish and my version has gone through many iterations. The current list right now is this and I'm kind of looking to get some feedback on it. Some of the choices that may seem strange are entirely budgetary constrains and card availability concerns (for instance: the mish mash of fetchlands).

Lands

3x Windswept Heath
1x Marsh Flats
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Verdent Catacombs
1x Polluted Delta
2x Bayou
2x Scrubland
3x Swamp
3x Forest
1x Plains
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Dryad Arbor

Spells by CMC

One (15: 6 creature/9 non-creature)
3x Veteran Explorer
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Thoughtseize
3x Deathrite Shaman
2x Sensei's Divining Top

Two (5: 1 creature/ 4 non-creature)
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Night's Whisper

Three (10: 1 creature/ 9 non creature)
3x Liliana of the Veil
3x Pernicious Deed
1x Eternal Witness
1x Painful Truths
1x Vindicate
1x Maelstrom Pulse

Four (6: 5 creature/ 1 non-creature)
4x Siege Rhino
1x Garruk Relentless
1x Meren of Clan Nel Toth

Five (3: 1 creature/ 2 non-creature)
2x Ob Nixilis, Reignited
1x Titania, Protector of Aragoth

Six (1: 1 creature/ 0 non-creature)
1x Grave Titan

Sideboard

2x Duress
2x Pithing Needle
2x Rest in Piece
2x Choke
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Krosan Grip
1x Swords to Plowshares
1x Dismember
1x Sylvan Library
1x Thragtusk
1x Golgari Charm

In my local meta I find that the major decks to beat are either Miracles or some variation of Delver (that being said, I have faced aluren, storm, D&T, Shardless, Burn and Sneak and Show with some regularity) This deck is heavy on the planeswalker theme and I am considering trying to fit in a Sorin, Grim Nemesis in the main and an Elspeth, Sun's Champion in the board. It fights really well against miracles and can grind out advantage like a machine. It does require a lot of set up though, leaving me soft to aggressive decks. For instance I find that the R/U delver deck to be the most difficult match up of all the varients and even with 4 siege rhinos I feel like the burn match up is a coin flip.

If anyone has any suggestions or critiques I would love to hear some. I'm in love with this deck, it's my child and I've built it from the ground up (using established versions as guidelines and points of references). The sideboard is a mess. I don't know how to build one that I've been happy with so I would love to hear some feedback on that as well.

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Originally Posted by Cliq

I think nic fit is better than most decks against dredge because we run so many sac effects, pernicious deed is actually quite good, and DRS even better. I will lose g1 but 2 & 3 i think I'm favored.

MUD seems to dump its hand, have only one or two real threats, and since they can usually be removed they just sit there until i find a deed and blow up all their mana. I do run Jace, force, strix etc so maybe the blue version is more favored. I will say that if they resolve an ugin, i just lose.

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Ugin is strong, Steel Hellkite also makes me sad, and I cease to play Magic after a Sundering Titan. Wurmcoil Engine and anything else they might run like Emperion is beatable and Ugin can be prevented but the other two are basically auto win cards.

Nights whisper is not good enough. Truths is way better. Draw 2 is just not a powerful enough effect to actually play a card to do. Just swap that out.

Unless your meta is super miracles/bug decks the 5/6 drops seem like they could be green creatures so that they can double as Gsz targets as well.

3 Drs is too much. I dont mind 1 as a back up to vet and as a utility dude to grab in cases.

Without pfire or some other engine I think 3 lily is too much. We need our land drops and our cards so lily is usually not breaking as much symmetry. I only ever played 2 at most in non fire lists. YMMV.

@ removedfromgame- as far as sideboard construction goes id take a list of the matches you plan to face you feel unfavored vs and list your 12-15 worst cards in each matchup. Then id make a list of the best cards you could possibly see in each of them in desecending order. Keep notes of where they over lap and construct based on overall vesatility vs absolute nutters. Then you should test a variety of boards until you get a feel for exactly how impactfull the cards are in practical application. Some matchups are un winable and honestly in some instances its best to pretend like those decks dont exsists have zero cards specifically for them and just accept that there will be atleast one round in a large event where you can comfortably get some food and turn off for a bit.

Concerning MUD/Dredge - those MUs both can go either way.

To beat MUD you have to break through several lock pieces as quickly as possible before you can start turning the game around. Path to Exile to get rid of Blighsteel Colossus can be a thing here. When you get to the late game, assemble Qasali Pridemage & Meren of Clan Nel Toth if you can.

Dredge either blitzes you or dies trying. Take out the Ichorids w/ DRS, Scavenging Ooze or Path to Exile and you take over the game eventually. No Ichorids means no beats and not many creatures to give them tokens. Fetch into Dryad Arbor can be a game changer here.

@The new deck: You're playing white but are not using it to complement your removal suite? Why? Answering problematic creatures for 1 mana is one of the best things about the deck.

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Originally Posted by Echelon

Concerning MUD/Dredge - those MUs both can go either way.

To beat MUD you have to break through several lock pieces as quickly as possible before you can start turning the game around. Path to Exile to get rid of Blighsteel Colossus can be a thing here. When you get to the late game, assemble Qasali Pridemage & Meren of Clan Nel Toth if you can.

Dredge either blitzes you or dies trying. Take out the Ichorids w/ DRS, Scavenging Ooze or Path to Exile and you take over the game eventually. No Ichorids means no beats and not many creatures to give them tokens. Fetch into Dryad Arbor can be a game changer here.

@The new deck: You're playing white but are not using it to complement your removal suite? Why? Answering problematic creatures for 1 mana is one of the best things about the deck.

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Dredge is a match I know well, I know all the tricks in it. You still need to draw the interaction though just as in any other match. I think that was my problem the more I think about it. Unfortunately, I'm out of town this next Friday... upside it means I'm getting a good sized Legacy FNM full of people I've known for a decade this next Friday. Downside, I know all their decks and they lean towards either Miracles or the unfair and I only have a handful of cards with me to make substitutions (don't even have Rhinos with me) so I'm probably not going to get much feedback that's useful.

@Tom4ik I totally agree that night's whisper isn't strong enough, I just found that more than one painful truth's felt clunky in my hands. I feel like one truths plus 2 top is good for velocity, but I want something else in the early game to help smooth out my draws. It's possible I should just be playing the library main too. Now in terms of DRS, the reason I have 3 is because this version of the deck isn't green sun based, which means that I need alternative ways of gaining advantage/powering out my late game. The theory behind this version is that my plainswalkers are my midgame, my rhinos and my fatties are my closers. I dunno, it seems to work really well against the grindier decks. I mean, I still haven't found a creature better than Grave Titan to close out the game with. Now that I'm thinking about it, I could see cutting a deathrite and the night's whisper for 2 green sun in the main. I just honestly don't know what else is a good green finisher.

@uncletiggy Yeah, that's sound advice. I really need to sit down and draw out a sideboard map. Thank you!

@Echelon Previous iterations of the deck had varying numbers of swords. The white splash is really for the rhinos and rest in piece in the board. I feel between 3 decay and 3 deed, plus lily, ob nixilis, (to a smaller extent garruk), pulse, vindicate and my big creatures, I can deal with most creatures. I have a swords in the board, could be main, but I want to feel like I should, at some point, be a little more proactive.

In a meta of Storm, Burn, Reanimator, Miracles, and T2 combos what would you rather run? The PW build or the SFM build? Or a hybrid of both? I'm leaning towards a hybrid build with combat walkers+equipment since I don't feel my previous attempt at SFM was representative of how it should perform.

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Originally Posted by removedfromgame

@Echelon Previous iterations of the deck had varying numbers of swords. The white splash is really for the rhinos and rest in piece in the board. I feel between 3 decay and 3 deed, plus lily, ob nixilis, (to a smaller extent garruk), pulse, vindicate and my big creatures, I can deal with most creatures. I have a swords in the board, could be main, but I want to feel like I should, at some point, be a little more proactive.

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Well, good luck vs. at least Grixis Delver & Eldrazi (just looking at the DtB section here). Looking forward to the complaints about Gurmag Anglers & Eldrazi.

@Brael: Yeah, that happens. Better luck next time!

Arian I am trying something resembling your list, and while I like it, It's giving me a bit of a problem in that it can often struggle against burn and delver. Am I an incompetent pilot? I have never lost to burn with rhino time, and against delver yesterday I lost 2 matches in a row, while I used to feel favoured before. 1 tusk 1 rhino are not enough imo, to the point that I feel the need to play in the sideboard either rhinos or bad cards like feed the clan. Am I going crazy? Because all this feels wrong, but the struggle is real

Going to be playing the CFB 3k tomorrow. Haven't really played Nic Fit since the last 3k. Hopefully with a few tweaks, my deck will still run fine.

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype...g-26711#online

Just noticed someone went 5-0 in the most recent legacy challenge with SFM fit. I wonder if they frequent here at all? Like to hear their thoughts on the deck :)

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Originally Posted by rubblekill

Arian I am trying something resembling your list, and while I like it, It's giving me a bit of a problem in that it can often struggle against burn and delver. Am I an incompetent pilot? I have never lost to burn with rhino time, and against delver yesterday I lost 2 matches in a row, while I used to feel favoured before. 1 tusk 1 rhino are not enough imo, to the point that I feel the need to play in the sideboard either rhinos or bad cards like feed the clan. Am I going crazy? Because all this feels wrong, but the struggle is real

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That is definitely strange, at least as far as Delver goes. Sometimes Burn just burns -- I've definitely lost that matchup on 3x Rhinos, usually when they keep a one lander and I set off a Vet, and then they just splooge me.

Delver has felt hilariously favored for me. It could certainly be that we're playing the deck differently and it's just a playstyle issue. I will note that I have gone back and forth on wanting a second Thragtusk, though, so what you're thinking/feeling isn't necessarily a bad impulse. I've wanted more lifegain, too, but I've been sticking it out for two reasons: 1) Gitrog is insane, but he's almost certainly the cut for Thrag #2, and I'm not sure I'm ready to do that since the Hypnotoad HAS been very good to me, and 2) Honestly, having less lifegain in the deck makes me play tighter. This is more of a psychological thing than anything else, and it's more reflective of my overall playskill being poorer than I want it to be, but when I have a pile of lifegain in the deck, I tend to get lazy, and that's a personal issue, nothing against having more in the abstract or for you / other players.

Generally the goal against Delver is to remove their first threat and hopefully their second with spot removal, stabilize on to the board a little to make them overcommit to have to go around you, then slam a sweeper, then Zenith up / play either one of the heavy card advantage bombs in the deck (Master of the Wild Hunt, Elspeth SC, Garruk Relentless, etc), or get Sigarda out and just 5 them to death. Usually this all plays out with you only going down to maybe 12 or so life, before any life gain, which should be more than enough -- especially since they usually bolt a Tireless Tracker somewhere in there.

Here's what I've been working on:

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Master of the Wild Hunt
1 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 The Gitrog Monster
1 Dragonlord Dromoka

1 Garruk Relentless
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith

3 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Vindicate

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge

2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sylvan Library

3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower

sb::
2 Thoughtseize
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Gaze of Granite
2 Tsunami
2 Pithing Needle
1 Celestial Purge
1 Krosan Grip

Still tinkering with the sideboard. I'm actually almost to the point of wanting Leyline of the Void, which feels wrong, but might not be as bad as I think? Maindeck changes from the GP atm are -2 Painful Truths, +1 Nissa, +1 Sorin. These are mostly oriented around my decreasing opinion of Painful Truths in this deck -- but while taking them out is fine, I did want something card advantage-y to replace them. Sorin is a natural fit -- he was only in the sideboard because I couldn't find room for him in the maindeck, and that gives me +1 sb slot. Nissa is something that I want to give another try. It could be that she'd just be better as Tracker #2 or Recurring Nightmare, which are currently my other top picks for her slot, but I think that she's worth another look...I mean, she's a Zenithable planeswalker. That can't ever really be bad. But, again, Tracker #2 and Nightmare are currently my other choices if she's bad. Note that if Nightmare DOES come back into the deck, Gitrog goes out for Thrag #2 at that point. Until that happens, I'm willing to stick with the Toad.

Sideboard is kind of a mess, as noted, but beyond that, this is my current go-to deck. If I had a major tournament in the next week or two, this is what I'd be rocking, and it's my current plan assuming I can make it up to SCG Worchester.

That being said, I have been brewing other things as well:

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
2 Obstinate Baloth
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Reality Smasher
2 Primeval Titan
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Gaze of Granite
1 Maelstrom Pulse

2 Abrupt Decay

3 Pernicious Deed

3 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Llanowar Wastes
4 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Wastes
2 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Phyrexian Tower

sb::
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Krosan Grip
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
2 Trinisphere
2 Thoughtseize
1 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Snuff Out / Dismember

This is my current look at the GB<> option. Maindeck ObBaloths are a concession to Delver and Shardless being less great matchups here than they are in other variants.

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman

2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Deadly Recluse

1 Eternal Witness
1 Ophiomancer
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Kitchen Finks

1 Academy Rector
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Restoration Angel
1 Master of the Wild Hunt

1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Shriekmaw

1 Sun Titan

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Green Sun's Zenith

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare

3 Birthing Pod
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath

sb::
1 Hall of Gemstone
1 Nether Void
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Krosan Grip
2 Dismember
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction

This is also something I've been tinkering with -- it's very rough at the moment, but I did say that I wanted to look into Pod lists after Columbus, so, here we are. This is much more of a control Pod than a combo Pod, but I'll look into those after I work on this for a bit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jain_Mor

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype...g-26711#online

Just noticed someone went 5-0 in the most recent legacy challenge with SFM fit. I wonder if they frequent here at all? Like to hear their thoughts on the deck :)

---

I proposed a VERY similar list to some gents in Europe. Glad to see in theory you can do rhino sfm fit and have it do alright.

One more week of exams, then ill grind some Miracles testing.

Think this is what I'm going with this weekend. Keep in mind I have to build from a limited card pool since I'm traveling and don't have much on me. Much higher curve/lower creature count than what I typically play.

Land 21
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Phyrexian Tower

Creatures 11
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness

Planeswalkers 5
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 Garruk Relentless
1 Nahiri, the Lithomancer

Spells 14
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Path to Exile
1 Vindicate
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Enchantment 3
3 Pernicious Deed

Artifact 7
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Haven't built the sideboard yet but it's going to include Thoughtseize, other swords, Freyalise, Sigarda, GY hate, and so on.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jain_Mor

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype...g-26711#online

Just noticed someone went 5-0 in the most recent legacy challenge with SFM fit. I wonder if they frequent here at all? Like to hear their thoughts on the deck :)

---

I play a quite similar deck just minor differences.
Three sfm, no Arbor.
Vindicate instead of Pulse. Considering beast within after the discussions here.
Just one drs, but one ste. Ste is a great blocker and half ramp.
3 i/o 2 Deed, card seems too important for me. Consider to switch 2 deeds, 1 toxic
1 i/o 2 painful Truths, two feels clunky and life loss is anot issue tbh.
3 i/o Decay
21 lands, no stronghold

Still on 61 cards which I don't really like, but tbh no clue what I could cut.
I am very happy with the deck but unfortunately I miss tests against miracles.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brael

Think this is what I'm going with this weekend. Keep in mind I have to build from a limited card pool since I'm traveling and don't have much on me. Much higher curve/lower creature count than what I typically play.

Land 22
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Phyrexian Tower

Creatures 11
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness

Planeswalkers 5
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 Garruk Relentless
1 Nahiri, the Lithomancer

Spells 14
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Path to Exile
1 Vindicate
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Enchantment 3
3 Pernicious Deed

Artifact 6
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

Haven't built the sideboard yet but it's going to include Thoughtseize, other swords, Freyalise, Sigarda, GY hate, and so on.

---

No chance to get some ca cards? Tracker, Truths, SoFaI? I am afraid you could run out of gas if u don't draw additional cards. Good luck and looking forward to see the report how sfm performed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cherson

No chance to get some ca cards? Tracker, Truths, SoFaI? I am afraid you could run out of gas if u don't draw additional cards. Good luck and looking forward to see the report how sfm performed.

---

I have Tracker with me alongside a full set of Swords. Fire and Ice would be SB but I don't think I want much CA in game 1, the PW take space and so does the SFM package, and there's not room for CA on top of that without further compromising removal.

I would rather have interaction, and the format I'll be playing in is about 1/3 Reanimator, 1/2 Miracles, and the rest assorted decks like Storm, Jund, and Burn. With the high curve I want something that can swing past Griselbrand and I want the ability to untap and cast another spell. Swinging past Goyf for a tempo boost is another nice factor.

Alternatively, I could play something like this, and SB into the PW plan. I kind of want all the PW's MB though due to the prevalence of Miracles. I usually have no problem beating average Miracles pilots but I would rather not have as many drawn out games. I took an Abzan Stoneblade deck that did well, and started adapting it to Nic Fit for this list. I don't think anything major is missing, and it's 60 cards though it does involve taking out Deeds due to the lower curve.

Land 22
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Creatures 16
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
3 Tireless Tracker

Spells 15
3 Path to Exile
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Vindicate
1 Toxic Deluge

Artifact 7
4 Sensei's Divning Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of X and Y

The thing about Thragtusk is that he's really good against Miracles as well as saving your life against most fair decks when you cast him. Running two has been great.

I'm also running 3 leyline of the void and haven't looked back. The card is great, and we can even hard cast it early enough to matter.

Im so glad swag tusk is back in favor hes been slighted for far too long and ive done a terrible job selling him to the thread...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by uncletiggy

Im so glad swag tusk is back in favor hes been slighted for far too long and ive done a terrible job selling him to the thread...

---

I mean, Thrag immediately went back in as soon as I realized that Our Lord and Savior was in fact the leader of a cult in disguise. The whole trick, for me at least, in restoring my faith in the deck, was just to move away from Rhinos. Yes, the concept can work, especially if you're running Elspeth Knight-Errant, hybridizing with SFM, and/or running Price of Progress if you're a savage. But it's very much not my speed of the deck. I don't like what that approach does to the deck's pace, tempo, matchups, and philosophy. Yes, you can get just the right matchups and you can crush all the way in -- adding more Rhinos to the deck does have its upside, it does improve some matchups, certainly. Overall, though, I think it's far more damaging than its worth.

I'm also glad that I thoroughly explored that path of the deck, though. I don't feel that I wasted my time doing so -- I'm glad it's over, but it was a worthwhile experience.

So I just finished up a new version based on what i've been seeing here. I like the spice of the Planeswalkers plus card advantage builds that i've been seeing, and I ended up with something that looks a lot like Arianrhod's most recent post. It's essentially the PW build, but with more creatures jammed in instead because I really like the ability to GSZ for anything, even a threat on the same level as a walker.

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
3 Tireless Tracker
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Dragonlord Dromoka

4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sylvan Library

4 Abrupt Decay
3 Path to Exile
3 Pernicious Deed

1 Garruk Relentless
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis

(excuse the mana, Budgetize me Captain!)

1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
5 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains

1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Thragtusk
1 Anafenza the Foremost
1 Rest in Peace
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Golgari Charm
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction

I haven't updated my sideboard since moving away from 4 rhinos, save moving in an Elspeth in place of Garruk. Basically I have a few questions. First, I see a lot of people rocking Sakura Tribe Elder. I'm wondering if my build would benefit from this inclusion, especially with the amount of basics that I have to fetch up. I am a bit more top heavy, so maybe the 5th ramp spell is worth the include? Second, I see a lot of people are saying that they are moving away from Rhino and Painful Truths. I can get behind PT because every time I cast it it just seemed like it wasn't doing enough to be worth the slots in my deck. I'm hopeful that the additional tireless trackers and added library would make up for it. Lastly, in a build like this that doesn't use rhinos, is Path or Swords the better include? I am totally behind playing path in a rhinos deck because you don't want to negate the impact that rhino has on your tempo, but with the grindier version is swords just the better include because it doesn't give the opponent any more basics, or do I still not care because veteran explorer? I'm just thinking that something like merfolk, miracles, or D&T would much rather have the land than the life boost, and does the advantage I get from having access to more walkers justify giving them a land.

I look forward to any information that I can get here. I know I don't post much, but i'm pretty much glued to my phone every night when I get that subscription email, just wanted you all to know that your input and work on this deck is much more appreciated than you might realize. Thanks y'all!

@Vestige: Why the Anafenza in the SB?

Also, hail Siege Rhino! I'm either not quite there yet or really in denial.