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It's definitely worth talking about. On the one hand, nobody wants to give away good decks, but on the other hand we need to agree on whether a deck does or does not work.
Mana Crypt + Donate + mass discard has been in my gauntlet since round 1 but worth making sure we all agree whether the deck does or does not work.
Isn’t the donate example in line with the rules as written? From the CR: “You” is the controller for permanents, the would be controller for spells and acitivated abilities, and the owner for triggered abilities.Quote:
Random effects always have the effect that is most favorable to the opponent.
Mana crypt is unlucky for the controller.
Emrakul shuffle is unlucky for the owner of emrakul.
Mana clash will do damage equal to the life total of whoever controls the spell. (When you would lose if the process stops and draw if it goes on forever, it is more favourable for the opponent if the effect stops)
I see I missed an apostrophe, so a search would not have found the cards with the ability I was referring to.Quote:
Originally Posted by dte
https://scryfall.com/search?q=oracle...rid&order=name
For these, if they're moving from a zone that's neither the battlefield or the stack,
then there is no controller, since none of the exceptions to rule 109.4 apply.
However, 108.4a and/or 109.5 probably fix anything which might need to be fixed in this respect.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dte
Which one is that?
my thought, including the epsilon exception
or
"For MC vs BB, I think MC should lose, even though the current rule has it win."
or
something else?
In any case, I now see the Mindslaver ambiguity in what I said. I think replacing "the effect's existence" with
"the match including an ability which creates the random effect" would fix that, although it's possible there are still others.
Incidentally, the particular Mindslaver example you gave is an epsilon situation, so
if that exception is included then the ambiguity's resolution doesn't actually affect it.
(I am well aware that there are probably other examples which would probably not be epsilon situations.)
YesQuote:
Originally Posted by dte
So glad to see a post where this is the only text printed, and nothing else!Quote:
Originally Posted by alphastryk
I assumed that donating a Mana Crypt would (eventually) kill the new controller, and if we're trying to settle any uncertainty then my vote goes to that interpretation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxx!
Since you put parentheses around eventually, I'm checking:
Do you mean
in usually 7 turns
or
only eventually: If there is any finite number of turns which works for the Crypt's recipient, then it would be such a number.
?
My understanding of maxx!'s "eventually" was to mean "in <life total>/3" turns, but perhaps I'm just projecting because that's what I thought the rules would be. I also vote for the rules to be this way, but I don't mind at all if I'm overruled.
There are cards that cause other players to shuffle, like Soldier of Fortune, though they're just unplayable in this format anyway.
I'm excited to have another mathy person who talks about things like events with probability 0. Indeed, I think we've had situations before that involved shuffling every turn and drawing the "wrong" card every single time forever to make a draw, though I can't recall the deck in question and I don't think I'd be able to find it.
As for Mindslaver, I guess controlling another player doesn't cause you to control any of their cards, so if you Mindslaver someone who has Mountaint + Mana Clash in their hand, you can kill them on the spot. This seems fine to me.
PS: I put in everyone's scores who did a write up.Only Nasst is missing... but it's the same deck as Asthereal. And I think I beat Reeplcheep, but Reeplcheep wasn't sure. We're both at 24 points without the matchup, so bans are at stake! Looks like a lot of bans this time!
Standings for round 2:
1. alphastryk: 54 - 5,4
2. dte: 45 - 4,5
3. RoosterCocoa: 39 - 3,9
4. maxx!: 33 - 3,3
5. Phasmoid: 30 - 3
5. silkster: 30 - 3
7. GoblinSmashmaster: 27 - 2,7
8. Reeplcheep: 24 - 2,4
9. FTW: 20 - 2
10. Asthereal (TO): 15 - 1,5
10. Nasst: 15 - 1,5
Which leads to a pile of bannings:
Ancient Tomb
Ashiok, Nightmare Muse
Chandra, Awakened Inferno
Chimeric Idol
Culling Scales
Dark Depths
Dreadship Reef
Dwarven Hold
Field of Ruin
Hive of the Eye Tyrant
Inquisition of Kozilek
Karakas
Mishra’s Factory
Mishra's Workshop
Pithing Needle
Serenity
Sphere of Resistance
Thespian's Stage
Trinisphere
Urza's Saga
And the season standings look as follows:
1. silkster: 7,5
2. dte: 7,3
3. alphastryk: 6,9
4. RoosterCocoa: 6,6
5. FTW: 6,5
6. Reeplcheep: 6
7. Phasmoid: 5,8
8. GoblinSmashmaster: 5,5
9. maxx!: 4,5
10. Nasst: 4,3
11. Asthereal (TO): 3,9
Let's stick to the standard rules for controller and owner, and random effects being to the disadvantage of the controller.
It's not like Crypt-Donate will dominate for a full season with our strict banning regime.
Anyway...
ROUND 3 OF SEASON 12: VINTAGE CREATURELESS BANNATHON has started.
I have PM'ed myself my deck for round 3, so you can start sending me your decks.
DEADLINE: Wednesday the 13th of April at 11:00AM Central European Time.
(That's my time zone. Pacific Time it'll probably be something like Tuesday night a bit past midnight, so keep that in mind.)
PLEASE NOTE:
The way you send your deck to me matters. Please send it in the way described below, so it doesn't cost me an hour of editing before I can post all the decks.
Please send your deck as follows: Mountain, Plains, Forest, Shivan Gorge.
So with card tags around each card, and not above eachother, and with your Username and 4CB S12R03 in the topic.
Don't forget to keep an eye on the banned list. You'll find it in the second post of the thread, or in our Google Spreadsheet.
After the deadline has passed, I will post all decks on the forum here, and you can start puzzling out your scores.
If you have any questions, please read the first two posts of this thread first. If you can't find the answer there, drop a message here. We'll answer a.s.a.p.
Happy deckbuilding! :smile:
It sounds like we've got clarification (for this season anyway) from Asthereal, but just to answer your question, I meant "in ~7 turns"Quote:
Originally Posted by Phasmoid
Deadline has passed, and it looks like I'm only missing Nasst. I'll give you some more time while I do work stuff.
Do we have to beat the sample deck? I don't always Backbuild around it.
I mean, you never know if somebody will just submit the sample deck... :DQuote:
Originally Posted by FTW
I will never again forget to metagame against Black KnightQuote:
Originally Posted by alphastryk
It is a bit tougher now that both field of ruins and pithing needle are banned to play around shivan gorge...
I'm here! I'll think and submit my deck in 10 mins or so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
EDIT: Done!
Indeed we are complete. Let's go!
DECKS FOR ROUND 3 OF SEASON 12: Vintage Creatureless Bannathon
1. Asthereal (TO): Force of Negation, Snap, Subterranean Hangar, Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath
2. GoblinSmashmaster: Pendelhaven, Mox Emerald, Channel, God-Pharaoh's Statue
3. dte: Commandeer, Force of negation, saprazzan cove, Shark Typhoon
4. alphastryk: Force of Negation, Sea’s Claim, Island, Mutavault
5. Phasmoid: Tropical Island, Daze, Crashing Footfalls, Crashing Footfalls
6. Reeplcheep: Mana Crypt, Grist, the Hunger Tide, Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast, Interplanar Beacon
7. RoosterCocoa: Undiscovered Paradise, Crashing Footfalls, Evil Presence, Curse of Silence
8. maxx!: Inkmoth Nexus, Cathedral of War, Ratchet Bomb, Leyline of Sanctity
9. silkster: Gemstone Mine, Restore Balance, Crashing Footfalls, Specter's Shriek
10. FTW: Saprazzan Cove, Force of Negation, Commandeer, Kasmina, Enigmatic Mentor
11. Nasst: Mutavault, Mox Sapphire, Mox Ruby, Wistful Thinking
Please post your scores and cross-check with the opponents.
I'll create a tab for the round in our Google Spreadsheet, so you can enter your scores there as well: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing
10. FTW: Saprazzan Cove, Force of Negation, Commandeer, Kasmina, Enigmatic Mentor
I see dte and I were on the same wavelength here. But of course should have thought of Shark Typhoon as a wincon (I'm even playing Legacy Standstill right now). Much better than Kasmina, especially in the mirror. I got stuck on planeswalkers and couldn't think of a good threat with Mu Yanling banned. Flash and uncounterable is such a big difference. I end up with a lot of draws.
1. Asthereal (TO): I can always wait to have an extra UUU to cast Kasmina with Force backup, so Kasmina will resolve, but then you get Ob Nixilis. That's bad for me. So instead I do nothing and hold up Commandeer (you can't protect with FoN on your turn). You can't play Ob Nixilis, so we stare. Shark Typhoon would win this. DD 2-2
2. GoblinSmashmaster: Since FoN beats this, I can just tick up to Kasmina and win. WW 6-0
3. dte: We both stare and tick up for a long time, but eventually you make an EOT Shark and I can't interact. At 7 mana I can cast Kasmina and defend with FoN, but Kasmina loses to Shark. LL 0-6
4. alphastryk: If you Sea's Claim my land, I Force pitching Commandeer. Then before Mutavault kills me I can make Kasmina and 2 2/2s, out-Grizzly Bearsing you. If you don't Sea's Claim, you have FoN up, but I can wait until turn 9 (7 mana) to cast Kasmina with extra UUU for hardcast FoN backup. Kasmina will resolve before Mutavault does lethal. WW 6-0
5. Phasmoid: If you suspend Crashing Footfalls, I'll be able to Commandeer one & pay for Daze before it resolves, so our Rhinos crash into each other. If you don't suspend one, I can't really get anywhere with my non-Shark wincon, so I have to wait and hold up Commandeer. DD 2-2
6. Reeplcheep: FoN on Mana Crypt stops your deck, then Kasmina gets there. WW 6-0
7. RoosterCocoa: Good tech. If you cast Evil Presence last, I can't sabotage your mana with Commandeer, and you can still disrupt my land before Footfalls resolves or I could cast Kasmina. I have to let Evil Presence and Curse resolve. You name Commandeer (because that's much worse for you), so I just FoN Footfalls to draw. DD 2-2
8. maxx!: I can Force Ratchet Bomb, but get punished again for not making a flying Shark. T6 Kasmina is slow vs doubled Inkmoth. LL 0-6
9. silkster: How did Specter's Shriek dodge the ban hammer when we banned all the Thoughtseizes? If you wait to suspend first, you can dodge the downsides of losing a card or getting Commandeered back at you. You discard FoN, and then I can't stop Rhinos. LL 0-6
11. Nasst: FoN stops Wistful Thinking, then T6 Kasmina stabilizes with 2 2/2s vs your 1 2/2. WW 6-0
30 points (8 wins, 6 draw, 6 loss)
dte must have gotten a good score because Shark makes a difference in many matchups.
Edit: GoblinSmashmaster's 7 2/2s would have done a lot better in this non-Sphere meta. Too bad for the switch. I played Commandeer in part because I feared that deck.
1. Asthereal (TO): Force of Negation, Snap, Subterranean Hangar, Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath
6-0, I kill with a Marit Lage sized shark.
6
2. GoblinSmashmaster: Pendelhaven, Mox Emerald, Channel, God-Pharaoh's Statue
6-0, whether I counter or not.
12
3. dte: Commandeer, Force of negation, saprazzan cove, Shark Typhoon
Me. Playing FoN vs the worst combos. Shark typhoon I found only because I was looking for a card that would prevent a draw against an army of zombies that no one played, but turned out pretty well.
4. alphastryk: Force of Negation, Sea’s Claim, Island, Mutavault
6-0
18
5. Phasmoid: Tropical Island, Daze, Crashing Footfalls, Crashing Footfalls
2-2, rhinos crashing into each others..
20
6. Reeplcheep: Mana Crypt, Grist, the Hunger Tide, Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast, Interplanar Beacon
6-0, FoN
26
7. RoosterCocoa: Undiscovered Paradise, Crashing Footfalls, Evil Presence, Curse of Silence
2-2 I would think. If you play curse I commandeer it and we draw, if you play footfalls without curse I commandeer it...
28
8. maxx!: Inkmoth Nexus, Cathedral of War, Ratchet Bomb, Leyline of Sanctity
6-0, FoN on bomb
34
9. silkster: Gemstone Mine, Restore Balance, Crashing Footfalls, Specter's Shriek
0-6. Well balanced deck!
34
10. FTW: Saprazzan Cove, Force of Negation, Commandeer, Kasmina, Enigmatic Mentor
6-0, big sharks eat Kasmina
40
11. Nasst: Mutavault, Mox Sapphire, Mox Ruby, Wistful Thinking
6-0, FoN
46
7 2/2s are only good for the mirror. Playing 6 2/2s also beat spheres. As it were, only maxx! and me would have 6-0 the zombies. crypt donate would have fare great too (39 i I replace my deck with it?)Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
I really like the new banning systems, the decks and meta are completely new every round. Here was FoN vs footfalls all along, while neither card have seen play before.
This meta turned out a lot different than I expected! Really enjoying the score-based bannings as every round feels fresh.
1. Asthereal (TO): Force of Negation, Snap, Subterranean Hangar, Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath
I assume Snap was meant to be Snapback? With a non-blue storage land, you can't use your FoN to protect your threat. WW
6-0
2. GoblinSmashmaster: Pendelhaven, Mox Emerald, Channel, God-Pharaoh's Statue
Pendelhaven just to get it banned? FoN stops you. WW
6-0
3. dte: Commandeer, Force of negation, saprazzan cove, Shark Typhoon
*disagreement* You can always FoN my Sea's Claim, but I can't FoN your Shark token. Will come down to a race. OTP, Mutavault kills on my turn 11. You can make a 4/4 Shark on your turn 7, which kills on your turn 12 (that was the fastest kill I found). Instead, you make a smaller shark that I cannot attack past to force the draw. DD
2-2
4. alphastryk: Force of Negation, Sea’s Claim, Island, Mutavault
me
5. Phasmoid: Tropical Island, Daze, Crashing Footfalls, Crashing Footfalls
I can FoN 1 Footfalls through Daze, but not two. LL
0-6
6. Reeplcheep: Mana Crypt, Grist, the Hunger Tide, Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast, Interplanar Beacon
FoN on Mana Crypt does the job. WW
6-0
7. RoosterCocoa: Undiscovered Paradise, Crashing Footfalls, Evil Presence, Curse of Silence
Curse of Silence is a great find. If you lead with suspending Footfalls, I can't stop more it with FoN because I need Sea's Claim to stop Presence and Curse. LL
0-6
8. maxx!: Inkmoth Nexus, Cathedral of War, Ratchet Bomb, Leyline of Sanctity
You start attacking with Inkmoth on your turn 3, killing on your turn 8. If I Claim Inkmoth, you take two turns off attacking to blow up Claim with Bomb, killing on your turn 10 instead. That's always 1 turn before my Mutavault can get the job done. LL
0-6
9. silkster: Gemstone Mine, Restore Balance, Crashing Footfalls, Specter's Shriek
Footfalls and protection. LL
0-6
10. FTW: Saprazzan Cove, Force of Negation, Commandeer, Kasmina, Enigmatic Mentor
You can play Kasima with FoN backup on your turn 9, which is before my Mutavault wins on my turn 11. LL
0-6
11. Nasst: Mutavault, Mox Sapphire, Mox Ruby, Wistful Thinking
I always have to FoN Wistful Thinking or a Mox to keep my hand, then our Mutavaults stare. DD
2-2
Total: 22 points.
6. Reeplcheep: Mana Crypt, Grist, the Hunger Tide, Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast, Interplanar Beacon
I thought this would be a better version of the crypt donate deck. It was not since everyone played forces.
1. Asthereal (TO): Force of Negation, Snap, Subterranean Hangar, Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath
Fon my crypt LL 0-6
2. GoblinSmashmaster: Pendelhaven, Mox Emerald, Channel, God-Pharaoh's Statue
Daretti kills artifacts WL 3-3
3. dte: Commandeer, Force of negation, saprazzan cove, Shark Typhoon
foN my crypt LL 0-6
4. alphastryk: Force of Negation, Sea’s Claim, Island, Mutavault
FoN my crypt LL 0-6
5. Phasmoid: Tropical Island, Daze, Crashing Footfalls, Crashing Footfalls
Daretti wins the ground and eventually lets me cast grist through daze to win. WL 3-3
7. RoosterCocoa: Undiscovered Paradise, Crashing Footfalls, Evil Presence, Curse of Silence
Daretti wins the ground. I can’t cast grist through both curse and presence though. I don’t think grist wins the race with blockers involved. DL 1-4
8. maxx!: Inkmoth Nexus, Cathedral of War, Ratchet Bomb, Leyline of Sanctity
Daretti kills ratchet bomb. Racing is easy when I don’t have to worry about crypt. WW 6-0
9. silkster: Gemstone Mine, Restore Balance, Crashing Footfalls, Specter's Shriek
I can’t win the race if restore balance resets my board. But you can’t balance or footfalls if you take my grist. DD 2-2
10. FTW: Saprazzan Cove, Force of Negation, Commandeer, Kasmina, Enigmatic Mentor
FoN my crypt. LL 0-6
11. Nasst: Mutavault, Mox Sapphire, Mox Ruby, Wistful Thinking
I don’t think I can win the race through a mutavault. DL 1-4
4W 4D 12 L for 16/60. Not the best.
@alphatryx, I make a shark at instand speed. So once I have 5 counters available, you cannot attack or I block and kill. And if you wait, a 20/20 flying shark works.
Yep, that does it. Thanks, will update the spreadsheet.Quote:
Originally Posted by dte
Before all that discussion, I was actually planning to play Crypt Donate this round. Then it got spoiled so I figured everyone would play it or have an answer, so I went for FoN + Commandeer instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by dte
6 2/2s still loses to Shop+3ball. Not sure it's worth playing around 1 of 2 legal sphere effects. Then both got banned together anyway, so 7 2/2s looks good again. I thought more people would be on it, so I had Commandeer (but still cannot win, only draw).
Apoligies for the spoil on crypt!Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
On the 2/2s, sphere of resistance is not really banned ;)
maxx!: Inkmoth Nexus, Cathedral of War, Ratchet Bomb, Leyline of Sanctity
1. Asthereal (TO): Force of Negation, Snap, Subterranean Hangar, Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath
I think Snapback was maybe the intent here? I'll assume Snap though. Force counters Bomb, so it's just a race between Inkmoth and Ob making a flying Demon. Looks close.
OTP
T1 Cathedral / Hangar
T2 Inkmoth, Ratchet (FoN) / Add counter (1c)
T3 Attack (2p) / Add counter (2c)
T4 Attack (4p) / Add counter (3c)
T5 Attack (6p) / Add counter (4c)
T6 Attack (8p) / Add counter (5c)
T7 Attack (10p)
I barely get there OTP, so you stabilize at 8 poison OTD and then tick up Ob to kill me while the Demon plays defense. 3-3
2. GoblinSmashmaster: Pendelhaven, Mox Emerald, Channel, God-Pharaoh's Statue
The GPS tax doesn't stop Inkmoth. 6-0
3. dte: Commandeer, Force of negation, saprazzan cove, Shark Typhoon
Shark Typhoon can make a flying blocker, but I get in enough attacks beforehand that you have to stay back forever. Since you only need to make a 2/2 to draw, you're a turn faster than Asthereal (4 mana instead of 5), so you can get the draw going both ways. 2-2
edit: See next post. I can force you to trade creatures OTP to draw, but not OTD. 1-4
4. alphastryk: Force of Negation, Sea’s Claim, Island, Mutavault
Sea's Claim! Fortunately, I have Ratchet Bomb. You can't FoN if you cast Sea's Claim, and if you Claim either of my lands, I play Ratchet Bomb and blow it up. Even with the extra turn or two of playing around your disruption, my clock is still faster than yours. 6-0
5. Phasmoid: Tropical Island, Daze, Crashing Footfalls, Crashing Footfalls
Pretty sure I'm faster. Double checking
OTD
T1 Suspend (4) / Cathedral
T2 Suspend (4, 3) / Inkmoth, Ratchet (Daze)
T3 Pass (3, 2) / Attack (2p)
T4 Pass (2, 1) / Attack (4p)
T5 Pass (1, 0) / Attack (6p)
T6 Attack with the 2 Rhinos that aren't summoning sick (12L) / Attack (8p)
T7 Attack (-4L)
So I'm a turn too slow OTD, which means I'm just in time OTP. 3-3
6. Reeplcheep: Mana Crypt, Grist, the Hunger Tide, Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast, Interplanar Beacon
Inkmoth is never a creature during your turn, so the only thing your walkers can do is make tokens. Daretti's tokens have defender, and I can set off a Ratchet Bomb for 0 if you get enough Insects to threaten racing me. 6-0
7. RoosterCocoa: Undiscovered Paradise, Crashing Footfalls, Evil Presence, Curse of Silence
Leyline stops Curse, and Ratchet Bomb can blow up Evil Presence (if I'm fast enough to win) or Rhinos (if I need to draw). I think I'm fast enough to win.
OTD
T1 Suspend (S4) / Cathedral
T2 Evil Presence (S3) / Inkmoth, Ratchet, add a counter
T3 Pass (2) / Sac Bomb, Attack (2p)
T4 Pass (1) / Attack (4p)
T5 Pass (0) / Attack (6p)
T6 Attack (12L) / Attack (8p)
T7 Attack (4L) / Attack (10p)
6-0
8. maxx!: Inkmoth Nexus, Cathedral of War, Ratchet Bomb, Leyline of Sanctity
This is me :]
9. silkster: Gemstone Mine, Restore Balance, Crashing Footfalls, Specter's Shriek
Leyline stops Specter's Shriek. Restore Balance will shut off my manland, but doesn't touch Bomb, so I can at least force a draw if I need to. I kill on turn 7, and Restore Balance goes off on turn 7, so I should win OTP and draw OTD. 4-1
10. FTW: Saprazzan Cove, Force of Negation, Commandeer, Kasmina, Enigmatic Mentor
Exalted Inkmoth is faster than Kasmina and I never have to cast any spells. 6-0
11. Nasst: Mutavault, Mox Sapphire, Mox Ruby, Wistful Thinking
Leyline blocks Wistful Thinking and my manland races yours. 6-0
3+6+1+6+3+6+6+4+6+6 = 47
I was expecting FoN this round, so I wanted to play a deck that could win without casting spells. Ratchet Bomb was a late catch-all that I added to beat token combo. Overall pretty good!
You can FoN bomb, but you can't make a 2/2 shark until your turn 6 (or 3/3 on turn 7), and by then I've already hit you for 6+ poison counters. I don't think you can ever attack me at that point without just dying to Inkmoth counterattacks. Draw?Quote:
Originally Posted by dte
edit: Actually the Shark coming down at instant speed complicates things. If I can't force you to make a 2/2 to block, you can just store counters forever threatening to flash block until you eventually make a 20/20 Shark. Need some math.
edit2:
OTP
T1 Cathedral / Cove
T2 Inkmoth, Ratchet (FoN) / Pass
T3 Attack (2p), EOT add counter (1c) / Pass
T4 Attack (4p), EOT add counter (2c) / Pass
T5 Attack (6p), EOT add counter (3c) / Pass
T6 Attack (8p), EOT add counter (4c) / Pass
T7 Attack, Cycle Shark Typhoon (X=2), block. Now nobody wins
OTD I'm a turn slower, so you can make a 3/3 Shark to block. I can't attack into that, so I sit back while you add counters until you have enough to make a 20/20 Shark, then you cycle at my EOT and then attack on your turn. I have to block and can't win from there. DL for me?
I don't have to expose Bomb to your walkers. I can just play it and blow it on the same turn once you have a few rounds of tokens. I didn't do the math before, but offhand it looks pretty hard for you to race me with 1/1s when I can spend a turn bombing. Calculating nowQuote:
Originally Posted by Reeplcheep
me OTD
T1 Grist +1 (1 insect) / Cathedral
T2 Daretti +1 (2 insects, 1 construct), Attack (19L) / Inkmoth
T3 Plus the walkers, (3I 2C), Attack w/ 2 insects (17L) / Attack (2p)
T4 Plus the walkers, (4I 3C), Attack w/ 3 insects (14L) / Attack (4p)
T5 Plus the walkers, (5I 4C), Attack w/ 4 insects (10L) / Attack (6p)
T6 Plus the walkers, (6I 5C), Attack w/ 5 insects (5L) / Ratchet Bomb, sac it
T7 Plus the walkers, (1I 1C) / Attack (8p)
T8 Plus the walkers, (2I 2C), Attack w/ 1 insect (4L) / Attack (10p)
At some point in there you have to use Daretti to kill your Crypt, since it kills you on your turn 8, but I don't think it really matters when since Daretti only makes tokens with defender anyway. I think this is 6-0 for me.
7. RoosterCocoa: Undiscovered Paradise, Crashing Footfalls, Evil Presence, Curse of Silence
1. Asthereal (TO): Force of Negation, Snap, Subterranean Hangar, Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath
I first Curse of Silence naming Force of Negation, then Evil Presence the Hangar, so you can't stop my tokens. WW
2. GoblinSmashmaster: Pendelhaven, Mox Emerald, Channel, God-Pharaoh's Statue
OTP I play Curse of Silence naming Mox Emerald and you can't do anything. OTD I can't cast anything through the tax. WL
3. dte: Commandeer, Force of negation, saprazzan cove, Shark Typhoon
I think we always draw? DD
4. alphastryk: Force of Negation, Sea’s Claim, Island, Mutavault
If I play Crashing Footfalls, you can always use Force of Negation and pay for the tax from Curse of Silence. I use Evil Presence on you Mutavault, so we draw. DD
5. Phasmoid: Tropical Island, Daze, Crashing Footfalls, Crashing Footfalls
OTP I play Curse of Silence and name Crashing Footfalls, which means you can't resolve either of yours. I then suspend my Crashing Footfalls, and keep my land untapped when it comes off of suspend so you can't counter it with Daze. OTD you suspend a Crashing Footfalls and have Tropical Island in play. I play Evil Presence targetting your Tropical Island, if it resolves you can't Daze anymore since you don't have an Island, so you have to Daze. Then I play Curse of Silence naming Crashing Footfalls and play my own Crashing Footfalls, so I still win. WW
6. Reeplcheep: Mana Crypt, Grist, the Hunger Tide, Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast, Interplanar Beacon
OTP Curse of Silence naming Mana Crypt means you can't play anything. OTD you get one of your planeswalkers, then I Evil Presence your land. If you play Grist, I suspend Crashing Footfalls on my turn 2. You make a 1/1 each turn, so on turn 2 I go to 19, on turn 3 17, on turn 4 14, on turn 5 10, on turn 6 5, then on my turn 6 I get my two 4/4s. By my turn 6, you are at 5 life from your mana crypt, on your turn 7 you can use Grist to sacrifice one of your insects to kill a rhino and attack with the others, but I survive at 1 life and then win by attacking back. If you instead play Daretti, you can destroy your Mana Crypt but can't win, so we draw. WD
8. maxx!: Inkmoth Nexus, Cathedral of War, Ratchet Bomb, Leyline of Sanctity
Ratchet Bomb and Leyline of Sanctity beat all of my hate cards. LL
9. silkster: Gemstone Mine, Restore Balance, Crashing Footfalls, Specter's Shriek
I think we draw? DD
10. FTW: Saprazzan Cove, Force of Negation, Commandeer, Kasmina, Enigmatic Mentor
You let Curse of Silence and Evil Presence resolve and Force of Negation my Crashing Footfalls. DD
11. Nasst: Mutavault, Mox Sapphire, Mox Ruby, Wistful Thinking
OTP I play Curse of Silence naming Wistful Thinking, then Evil Presence on your Mutavault. OTD you make me discard my hand. WL
7W 9D 4L = 30
I prepared for Force of Negation, but wasn't ready for Commandeer to be in the same deck.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
The above is an illegal deck:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
As additional support, I note that this matches standard MtG rules and the specific rulings on Grist:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MagicCompRules 113.6a
Quote:
Originally Posted by MagicCompRules 604.3
Quote:
Originally Posted by the top Gatherer ruling for Grist, the Hunger Tide
Quote:
Originally Posted by the tweet linked to by Scryfall for Grist, the Hunger Tide
5. me: Tropical Island, Daze, Crashing Footfalls, Crashing Footfalls
I had this in mind since before Round 1, and decided to play it this time.
1. Asthereal (TO): Force of Negation, Snap, Subterranean Hangar, Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath WW 6-0
As pointed out by maxx!
(I wrote most of this post while thinking it was Snapback, and only realized when I saw maxx!'s post)
, you can't cast Snap.
However, that doesn't matter against me, since against me, FoN is also better than Snapback.
If Ob Nixilis gets countered, then I will win with at least 2 Rhinos.
Also, note that the turn after Ob Nixilis enters, my attacks can still reduce your life total to at most
what is was just before he entered minus 4 times ( number of Rhinos I controlled just before he entered minus 1 )
, since his +2 shifts each of our life totals by just 1, leaving me with at least 19
and counteracting less than 1 Rhino's attack, and his -2 gives you only one blocker.
The soonest you can cast Ob Nixilis is T7. That on its own doesn't save you, since by the above note, my T7 attacks would still leave you with at most 0 life. Thus, before T8, you must cast FoN or Snap and not let it be countered. T7 Ob Nixilis would leave you with no mana for Daze, so you must cast FoN or Snap before Ob Nixilis, and still not let [whichever of those 2 you cast] be countered. The best of those options for you is Forcibly Negating my first Footfalls. I respond with Daze, and you must pay, since you can't let your spell be countered. This both removes 1 storage and misses 1 storing. Those 2 things together slow down Ob Nixilis by 2 turns, so he will enter on T9. I create 2 Rhinos on T6, and they attack on turns 7 and 8 for 16 total damage. By the above note, my T9 attacks will leave you with at most 0 life.
2. GoblinSmashmaster: Pendelhaven, Mox Emerald, Channel, God-Pharaoh's Statue WL 3-3
When I am OTP, I Daze Channel, after which my Rhinos win. When I am OTD, I just lose to the Statue.
3. dte: Commandeer, Force of negation, saprazzan cove, Shark Typhoon DD 2-2
You can untap Cove on T3 with 1 stored, which lets you Commandeer my first Footfalls through Daze, so you don't lose.
I suspend on T1 and T2. The Footfalls will be cast on T5 and T6, whereas you can't cast Shark Typhoon before T8. I won't cast Daze after Shark Typhoon enters the battlefield, so your other spells won't have targets while Shark Typhoon is on the battlefield, so Shark Typhoon's cast trigger won't do anything. If you Comandeer 1 of my Footfalls, then you have no other threats and your 2 Rhinos only get 1 attack each before my 2 Rhinos are created, so Commandeer doesn't let you win. Thus cycling Shark Typhoon is the only way you might win. Even without me doing anything, the fastest your cycling-Shark can win is T13, which would be by being a 4/4 or 5/5 (Chronomaton math). Even if my first Footfalls is Negated, my T7+T8+T9 attacks would deal 20 damage total to you even against a single T9 block, so you must cycle no later than my T8. That gives you at most a 4/4, which does no better than trading. Therefore you don't win.
4. alphastryk: Force of Negation, Sea’s Claim, Island, Mutavault WW 6-0
Mutavault can't attack before T2, so you can't win before T11. I can always suspend 1 Footballs before I lose my {G} source. You can't both Claim my land and Forcibly Negate something, so I get at least 2 Rhinos no later than T6. Mutavault can't do better against them than a chump-block, so I win no later than T9.
5. me: Tropical Island, Daze, Crashing Footfalls, Crashing Footfalls
6. Reeplcheep: Mana Crypt, Grist, the Hunger Tide, Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast, Interplanar Beacon illegal deck
As explained in my above post, Grist is not legal this season. To avoid a possible waste of effort, I will probably wait on this until we've decided how it will be handled.
7. RoosterCocoa: Undiscovered Paradise, Crashing Footfalls, Evil Presence, Curse of Silence LL 0-6
Evil Presence handles Daze, and you Curse me naming Crashing Footfalls, after which your Crashing Footfalls wins for you.
8. maxx!: Inkmoth Nexus, Cathedral of War, Ratchet Bomb, Leyline of Sanctity WL 3-3
I Daze the Ratchet Bomb. Inkmoth can't attack on T2, since either it's summoning-sick or Cathedral is tapped, in which case Inkmoth can't both animate and attack. I would lose to poison on your T7, and you would lose to Rhinos my T7 (Ratchet gets Dazed). Thus whoever is OTP wins.
9. silkster: Gemstone Mine, Restore Balance, Crashing Footfalls, Specter's Shriek DD 2-2
I don't win, even if you don't have Specter's Shriek:
On T1, I suspend a CF and you suspend Restore Balance. If I suspend my other CF on T2, then you too suspend yours on T2, else you suspend yours on T3. In each case, my Rhinos deal at most 16 total damage to you before Balance is Restored. In the former case, no Rhinos will be created after Restore Balance resolves, so the game will be a draw. In the latter case, you stack your Restore Balance trigger above your CF trigger, so that you create 2 Rhinos immediately after Restore Balance resolves. I create at most 2 Rhinos after Restore Balance resolves, so I don't win. You suspend no later than T3 and cast no sooner than T6, so you can pay for anything I Daze.
I don't lose, even if I never cast Daze:
I play nothing (not even my land) until [Restore Balance resolves] or [you suspend Crashing Footfalls] or [you cast Specter's Shriek]. Start by supposing Restore Balance resolves before you do either of the other two. I discard Daze and 1 CF. At that point, exiling immediately with Specter's Shriek would leave you with no threats, and otherwise I suspend my remaining CF to hold off your CF. Thus Restore Balance resolving isn't the first of those three, so now suppose CF is the first of those three. I suspend 1 of my CFs. Your Rhinos will be created before my Rhinos, so Restore Balance won't help you with creatures, and otherwise, my Rhinos hold off your Rhinos. Thus CF also isn't the first of those three, so Specter's Shriek is the first of those three. If it exiles your own CF, then you have no threats left. If it exiles Restore Balance, then I have at least 1 CF remaining against your CF. Thus Specter's Shriek exiles nothing. (Restore Balance means it's not obvious that this can't help you.) I play my land. If you suspend CF before Restore Balance resolves, then I get at least a draw for the same reasons as if that was before you cast Specter's Shriek, so Restore Balance resolves before you suspend CF. I keep a CF in my hand. After Restore Balance resolves, if you still control Gemstone Mine, then I still control my land, in which case my CF holds off your CF. After Restore Balance resolves, if you don't control Gemstone Mine, then you lose any mana from it at the end of your upkeep, which stops you from suspending your CF.
10. FTW: Saprazzan Cove, Force of Negation, Commandeer, Kasmina, Enigmatic Mentor DD 2-2
You can untap Cove on T3 with 1 stored, which lets you Commandeer my first Footfalls through Daze, so you don't lose.
I suspend on T1 and T2. If you Comandeer 1 of my Footfalls, then you have no other threats and your 2 Rhinos only get 1 attack each before my 2 Rhinos are created, so Commandeer doesn't let you win. You can't cast Kasmina before T6, so your Wizards can't attack before T7, at which point I will have at least 2 Rhinos. You can't make more than 2 Wizards, so you don't win.
11. Nasst: Mutavault, Mox Sapphire, Mox Ruby, Wistful Thinking WL 3-3
When I am OTD, you cast Wistful Thinking, locking me out, and then win with Mutavault. When I am OTP, I T1 suspend Crashing Footfalls. That is enough on its own, and I can also win 1 turn faster by Dazing any of your spells to let me suspend my other Crashing Footfalls on T2.
27 points, plus 0 or more against Reeplcheep (illegal deck)
Me. silkster: Gemstone Mine, Restore Balance, Crashing Footfalls, Specter's Shriek
Here's me jamming some Restore Balance. I wonder how long it takes for someone to be known for a specific card.
1. Asthereal (TO): Force of Negation, Snap, Subterranean Hangar, Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath
We're both turn-7 decks, so on the play, I get there first. On the draw, it looks like I'm exactly fast enough to attack for 8 twice, then you make a 5/5 and one Rhino still gets through.
WW
2. GoblinSmashmaster: Pendelhaven, Mox Emerald, Channel, God-Pharaoh's Statue
Ooh, I definitely thought we'd seen the last of God-Pharaoh's Statue. I looked at Channel, but I figured this round would be heavy on Force of Negation.
Discard versus turn-1 deck is WL. Is the Pendelhaven just to get more cards onto the banlist?
3. dte: Commandeer, Force of negation, saprazzan cove, Shark Typhoon
I can hide my spells in exile and then play a discard spell. It's almost like I specifically designed my deck to beat yours.
I didn't realize how good Shark Typhoon was until I finished the rest of this and looked back at the other writeups. For a moment I thought it might be close against the Inkmoth Nexus, but you can just save up for a 20/20 and you're defended by the threat of an instant speed blocker. And Saprazzan Cove coming in hot over Sand Silos. Very nice!
WW
4. alphastryk: Force of Negation, Sea’s Claim, Island, Mutavault
Restore Balance is just a fluff card in this match to pitch to Specter's Shriek, and then the Rhinos clean up.
WW
5. Phasmoid: Tropical Island, Daze, Crashing Footfalls, Crashing Footfalls
On the play, I can nab a Footfalls then pay for Daze and we trade down to nothing.
On the draw, you suspend Footfalls, and I suspend Restore Balance. If you don't suspend the second one, you'll only get 16 damage in, so you suspend the second, which forces me to suspend mine. Some Rhinos trade, and the rest becomes even in the balance.
DD
6. Reeplcheep: Mana Crypt, Grist, the Hunger Tide, Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast, Interplanar Beacon
On the play, I take your mana.
On the draw, if you lead on Grist, I take Daretti, then suspend Footfalls the next turn. My two blockers land exactly in time and provide exactly enough bodies that I win at 1 life.
If you lead on Daretti, I nab the Grist, the suspend Restore Balance, then wait a turn and suspend Footfalls. You have to -1 Daretti once so you don't die to Crypt. My Restore Balance lands on turn 8, so Daretti has 3+7-1=9 counters. You go to 10 and make a 1/1, then I attack Daretti for 8. You can kill one Rhino, but the other finishes off Daretti.
WW
7. RoosterCocoa: Undiscovered Paradise, Crashing Footfalls, Evil Presence, Curse of Silence
Curse of Silence is a really nice find. For a moment I regretted not trying to ban it from the start, but then I reread it and realized that it doesn't quite beat storage lands, so I'm glad it's an option. I remember vetoing its inclusion two seasons ago, but the creatures-only season in between knocked this off my radar.
I think the best I can do is go for a draw. On the play, I can exile the Footfalls. On the draw, you either start with Footfalls or Curse of Silence. If you start with Footfalls, then I suspend mine tooand you can't stop mine without also stopping yours.If you Curse on Shriek, then my Footfalls is safe to trade with yours.
DD
I might have misread Curse of Silence. Hmm. You lead on Footfalls, then I lead on Balance. If you Presence, Shriek still takes Curse and Balance will protect me in time. If you Curse on Balance or Footfalls, the other trades with you Footfalls. Okay, still DD.
8. maxx!: Inkmoth Nexus, Cathedral of War, Ratchet Bomb, Leyline of Sanctity
You kill on turn 7, which means that I'm just fast enough on the play to force a draw.
DL
10. FTW: Saprazzan Cove, Force of Negation, Commandeer, Kasmina, Enigmatic Mentor
I hide my spells, then exile the Force. WW
11. Nasst: Mutavault, Mox Sapphire, Mox Ruby, Wistful Thinking
Classic WL against discard.
12W, 5D, 3L = 41 points, though many of those matches were quite close and might have mistakes.
@FTW, Specter's Shriek comes with a drawback, like Inquisition of Kozilek and Curse of Silence. I was all for banning the others that are strictly better and also because they're almost always identical.
From Under the Floorboards would have done quite well this round. I considered it myself, but I thought Tabernacle would be a larger player this round.
:laugh::wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by dte
Yeah, I'm glad for cards doing their thing and then moving on. There were too many 55%ish decks that kept hanging around last time.Quote:
Originally Posted by dte
Unforunately for you, Grist is black.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reeplcheep
I think Alphastryk can pay the 2 for the Curse of Silence. Evil Presence still stops Mutavault, so it looks like DD to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by RoosterCocoa
That looks correct, I forgot that you don't need a storage land to pay for the curse.Quote:
Originally Posted by silkster
@Maxx!, your analysis is right, LD for you and WD for me.
Swamp is actually colorless.Quote:
Originally Posted by silkster
Oh man, I was so confused for a minute, and I was worried that my correction was wrong and too smug, but I eventually figured it out. (Though not before going back to see whether Reeplcheep had submitted Swamp.) :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
Screwed up the deck because it was a last minute change from oko.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phasmoid
1. Asthereal (TO): Force of Negation, Snap, Subterranean Hangar, Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath same 0-6
2. GoblinSmashmaster: Pendelhaven, Mox Emerald, Channel, God-Pharaoh's Statue Swamp lets me draw OTD lol 2-2
3. dte: Commandeer, Force of negation, saprazzan cove, Shark Typhoon same 0-6
4. alphastryk: Force of Negation, Sea’s Claim, Island, Mutavault same 0-6
5. Phasmoid: Tropical Island, Daze, Crashing Footfalls, Crashing Footfalls I think I still stabilize? 1-4
6. Reeplcheep: Mana Crypt,Grist, the Hunger Tideswamp, Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast, Interplanar Beacon me
7. RoosterCocoa: Undiscovered Paradise, Crashing Footfalls, Evil Presence, Curse of Silence swamp lets me cast my cards lol 2-2
8. maxx!: Inkmoth Nexus, Cathedral of War, Ratchet Bomb, Leyline of Sanctity LLper maxx 0-6
9. silkster: Gemstone Mine, Restore Balance, Crashing Footfalls, Specter's Shriek i don’t think I win the board anymore if you restore balance right away. LL 0-6
10. FTW: Saprazzan Cove, Force of Negation, Commandeer, Kasmina, Enigmatic Mentor same 0-6
11. Nasst: Mutavault, Mox Sapphire, Mox Ruby, Wistful Thinking can’t win 1-4
6 points
As someone who has also submitted an illegal Grist, I feel you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reeplcheep
Swamp gives you the mana to cast Mana Crypt, but you still only have 4 total which isn't enough to cast Daretti while paying the 2 extra. So these matches should be DL. But I did the scores for Smashmaster too, so someone should double check this. Crucially, the difference between DD and WD for RoosterCocoa is the difference between making and not making the banlist cut off.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reeplcheep
On the play, you get 5 turns before the first footfalls lands. So you can tick Daretti up to 8 and have 5 1/1s. Then you can sac the crypt to kill one Rhino, and block the next with 4 1/1s. Now you have Daretti at 6 loyalty with no creatures facing two Rhinos. Perhaps you thought you could be single blocking them while using more -2s, but the Rhinos have trample.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reeplcheep
I agree with your analysisQuote:
Originally Posted by silkster
Saddest part of this story is that Reep sent an illegal deck before, which I caught, but I didn't pick up on this one.Quote:
Originally Posted by silkster
Anyway, it's been rather busy around Easter, and I see there's still a few disagreements. Let's push the deadline for next round a week.