[Deck] The Rock

@Sughayyer: congrats again w/ your awesome finish, seems like you totally enjoy your list and your opponents hate it :) ohh i forgot you ask, how is your match up against maverick in that list?
Btw i would like to revive my old build of junk and test it this coming sunday in a place i dont know the current meta, here's the list

4 bob, 4 kotr, 4 goyf
4 seize, 4 hymns, 2 gerrard's verdict
4 stp, 3 pulse
2 deed
3 mox d, 3 SDT
2 bayou, 2 scrubland
2 swamp, 1 forest, 1 plains
4 verdant, 4 marsh flats
4 wasteland
1 karakas, 1 maze, 1 bog

SB
2 tormods, 3 extirpate, 2 diabolic edict
2 choke
2 duress
2 deed, 2 perish

any thoughts? thanks :)

Grats sug!!

Anything I have to say about your list is negated by the fact that you keep playing combo decks! :p
I love the 4 goyf/4 bob/4 knight set up and I feel it gives you a lot of game against much of the field.

Did Elspeth ever hit the board?

Ryn: I think you should cut 2 verdicts and get 2 Lillianas in your list. That card is dumb good..

@ ryn
I agree that liliana is better than veredict.

@ frog
with 24 lands +3 moxen, elspeth does hit the board. It is great against maverick and some control decks. When it hits the table it a) ends the game or b)gives me recursive threats/blocks). Of course, today she stayed out of my deck almost entirely.

about the match with maverick: it's been 2 weeks since I last played against maverick, but infest is simply great. combined with our great array of removals and discard spells, it's working fine (unless I do stupid things during the play that cost me the match, and that's what I usually do when in attrition). Deed, infest, and elspeth are great against maverick.

Even liking elsy that much, sometimes I consider shifting to another bob... but I'm still not sure.

Again, thanks for all your support and good night! I'm gonna sleep 'cause it's too late in here!

EDIT: just paid atention on ryn's side. I *think* nihil spellbomb is better than tormod's.It costs mana, but it "cycles" itself.

I have been thinking about Elspeth but the 4cc double white is a problem in my mind seeing how the matchups I am most concerned with RUG/Maverick can keep you off of double white or four mana for quite a long time.

I am hopefully going to get two tournaments in next week as I will be visiting my mom in San Diego!!! I am super excited about the amount of magic that will be in my life next week.

I look forward to Elspeth being tested in the non-Stoneforge versions of this deck. I expect it'll be amazing.

Sug, are you going to update your SB for Sneak and Show? I've always been terrified of that deck, leading to 3x Diabolic Edict in my SB.

Ryn_ball: 21 lands with 3 Mox Diamond? Mox Diamond with Pernicious Deed? I'd cut the 2 Verdicts for lands. I know Verdict is good, but I think it's most relevant in control builds.

@Sughayyer & lavafrogg: Oh my i almost forgot about liliana and yes i will cut 2 verdicts for her place, thanks guys about that. :)

@Mirrislegend: i think according to my list i have 23 lands :), and yes if i have engineered explosives (faster than deed) i will replace the deed by those EE so it doesnt hit my mox d. :)

@sughayyer: about tormod's crypt i think it is good (not downgrading the nihil) but for :0: cmc and :0: activation cost w/c is really awesome, it hurts dredge alot, not so for reanimator but it can play around daze plus ideally if i have 1 tormod's and i extirpate in hand i think that set up is quite boss plus of course land to cast extirpate w/ a back up proactive discards and maybe i will do combination of extirpate and surgicals for quite flexiblity :)

Hah, I'm an idiot, sorry. Anyways, the EE over Deed is great in your deck, because you have lots of pressure, so it's rare to have to explode the whole board.

Why is noone playing Teeg in their sideboards? Is it just the lack of GSZ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mirrislegend

I look forward to Elspeth being tested in the non-Stoneforge versions of this deck. I expect it'll be amazing.

Sug, are you going to update your SB for Sneak and Show? I've always been terrified of that deck, leading to 3x Diabolic Edict in my SB.

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On elspeth: even bob swings for flying 5 with her. I stated it before and I'm not exagerating: she ends games.
On sneak & show, I think the deck is already optimal for it. After he starts drawing cards with griselband, any attempt of removal/edict WILL be countered - or worse, misdirected. The way I see, knight and karakas is the key. Also, getting liliana online fast, since her edicts are "free", and uncounterable. Against these decks, I simply try to disrupt their hands as better as I can, and shove dudes on the field. Their counters are usually for protecting their combo (and their creatures), so if he starts countering your dudes he is in a terrible position and you are already winning. On the sideboard against them, I was -4 stp, +1 extirpate + 1 surgical + 2 duress.

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Also, I don't know if it's just me, but I can't run this deck with less than 24 lands. I even wanted to fit a sejiri steppe, "tested" it on cokatrice and it felt great. However, I don't have the courage to replace my plains with it in real life.
My manabase is like this:

4 marsh flats
4 verdant catacombs
4 wasteland
3 scrubland
2 bayou
1 swamp
1 forest
1 plains
1 horizon canopy
1 karakas
1 bojuka bog
1 maze of ith
...and the 3 moxen. Sometimes I wish I had 4...

Vs Sneak and Show

Liliana of the Veil (as compared to Diabolic Edict)
+:
Dodges Misdirection (!)
Useable later in the game for discard or more sac
Useable in other matchups

-:
Costs 3
Sorcery Speed

I still can't chose between the two. Currently I'm on Edict cuz I have it, and it's reliable

In expectation of seeing more Tribal and Miracles, I'm running:

1 Pernicious Deed
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormod's Crypt/Duress/Faerie Macabre
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Path to Exile
2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Virtue's Ruin
2 Choke

Essentially, the differences from last time are Duress became Gaddock Teeg, and 2 EE became 2 Path (Path giving me a bit more flexibility in also fighting Griselbrand. EE isn't as good against Goblins, but would be fine against Merfolk, so I'm a bit up in the air). I might just bring back the EE's since Merfolk on 2 is amazing, and taking out tokens against Miracles or CMC 1 against Maverick/Elves is great.

-Matt

I'm back to troll a little bit, slinging Life from the Loam. I believe I will be using a close version of Liam Rick (thank you for the list!)

My big question is this: With Mox Diamond and Life from the Loam...does Armageddon become a potential game plan?

Against what decks? You're basically using Armageddon as a control-blowout, but the Wasteland + Loam plan is probably just better against most decks in the format anyway.

The problem I see with Armageddon is say you play it while behind to try to break the game open. Then, if they can counter your Loam for a few turns, how behind do you get versus them?

It's ball-busting against Miracles/Stoneblade, and basically meh against everything else. I think I'd rather just have Choke, but I'd say to give it a shot for sure.

-Matt

When building a deck around such a strong card like life from the loam, you have to make sure that your cards are good on their own and you aren't looking at an Armageddon in your hand against an active planeswalker or a couple heirarchs while you have a mox diamond.

I know that you can argue that all cards are useless in certain situations but it's just a thought...

I'm not sure whether I will have 4 GSZ or 3 life from the loams in my list this next week... I will most likely have 4 GSZ and 1/1 Loam but I will be sad about it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

I'm back to troll a little bit, slinging Life from the Loam. I believe I will be using a close version of Liam Rick (thank you for the list!)

My big question is this: With Mox Diamond and Life from the Loam...does Armageddon become a potential game plan?

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It'll work, just remember to have things to deal with the aggro decks as well. Tabernacle (land) is a good call at that point. You'll have Diamonds and probably no more than a couple creatures on the field. An Armageddon into Tabernacle would suffice to kill off majority of threats. Just remember that the land is a destroy effect now and the creature a sacrifice (as was the land's oracle text at the time).

I know it'll work because I had a list using Crucible with 3 Armageddon's main. Granted, instead of Diamonds, I was using Exploration.

You can't Armageddon with Teeg out. I think Choke + Teeg will beat blue based control much more reliably than Armageddon

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mirrislegend

You can't Armageddon with Teeg out. I think Choke + Teeg will beat blue based control much more reliably than Armageddon

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True. Even in my old list I swapped Armageddon for Choke post board. That's post board though.

I was considering Armageddon for the sideboard, mostly for the control decks. It won't be very useful against decks that use acceleration like Bant and Maverick but it would be fairly great for decks like Miracle Control and Nic-Fit. I guess I'm looking for a little surprise-factor, I mean who plays Armageddon now? Dutch Staxx and a few fringe decks? Armageddon hits at a different point of the game, too. Blue players will expect to see Choke turns 2-3 whereas Geddon is a turn 3-4 play. The off-beat timing could be good.

Anyways, I'm testing it x3 in the board (online.) I'll let folks know what happens.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

I was considering Armageddon for the sideboard, mostly for the control decks. It won't be very useful against decks that use acceleration like Bant and Maverick but it would be fairly great for decks like Miracle Control and Nic-Fit. I guess I'm looking for a little surprise-factor, I mean who plays Armageddon now? Dutch Staxx and a few fringe decks? Armageddon hits at a different point of the game, too. Blue players will expect to see Choke turns 2-3 whereas Geddon is a turn 3-4 play. The off-beat timing could be good.

Anyways, I'm testing it x3 in the board (online.) I'll let folks know what happens.

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Are you having trouble vs Nic-Fit? What goes wrong for you?

Also, Armageddon would be fine against Bant and Maverick, except for KotR

Not having trouble with Nic-Fit at all...it was just a general comment that Armageddon would be big game against a mana-ramp deck like that. They play a lot of basics so Wasteland isn't good in the mid-late game, even with a Loam/Waste lock. Armageddon just blows them all up. I think maindeck Pernicious Deed and Maelstrom Pulse are fantastic against Nic-Fit and Loam really tips the scales.

I have added a Nantuko Monastary to complement my Treetop Village and I have decided that I will play Raven's Crime in lieu of Liliana. Her best abilities are discard and removal. Raven's Crime is one sided and fantastic with Loam. I have a boatload of removal already (Swords, Deeds, Pulses, Profane Command = 10)

A card that I'm really curious about is Realms Uncharted. For a Loam deck it's guaranteed to give me 2 more Raven's Crime activations or simply feed me man-lands, Wasteland, and cycle lands. I wouldn't play more than 2 and I'm testing one. I haven't pulled the trigger on Diamonds yet...but I am using 24 lands. It feels right ATM, time will tell. My only chance to playtest so far was Esper Stoneblade...and I murdered the guy on MWS. It was a long game but I kept attacking his Jace until I finally topped a Pulse. Raven's Crime started raping turn 2 and he never had more than one card in hand after turn 3, except during his turn when he activated Jace. I feel good about that matchup, bringing in Infest x2 and Armageddon x3 from the sideboard.

Safety- please don't cut Lilliana for ravens crime, one is a good card and one is part of a slow "combo" that doesn't win the game or even hold the board down. As you add all of these cute cards you become more and more susceptible to hate both main board and sideboard.

You need to plan on games where you will not resolve life from the loam at all, and also games where you have your graveyard nuked multiple times/leylined/oozed with mom protection.

You also don't want to have too many expensive cards; with maverick and RUG as the best decks in the format you need to be able to play on a tight mana budget, through many wastelands.

All I am really saying is watch out for the danger of cool things, take that from someone who has played with Loam since it was printed.