Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nok_
I'm new here, and looking to play a new Legacy deck (I played manaless dredge at GP Tacoma) as my current play group is trying to expand more into Legacy. This looks like my style, and I have a fair amount of the cards I'd need for the deck. After reading a lot of the posts on this thread, I've noticed that pretty much all the lists run 61 cards. Why does Nic Fit run 61 cards? Is it because we can due to the sheer number of tutor effects?
I'm currently looking at the BUG with Siege Rhinos list, which I think I'll be proxying and playing with my playgroup. We're doing a full-proxy (sorry, playtest card) tournament this weekend and I'll post the results of that. Should be pretty hard, I see that ANT is a bad match and there's at least one ANT player among us.
61 card special is a Matt trademark. he is that kind of special. The beauty of this deck compared to other legacy decks is that its so interchangeable and malleable that you can make it your own and build off what is originally in place. Tutor are strong but Skillerhino is stronger.
I would try abzan rhino fit for now. it is by far the most stable, at least in my opinion. Whats-his-name may be onto something with the wastes-post shell he posted a few pages back.
ANT is very beatable. Duress, cabal therapy and surgical pull a lot of weight. hand disruption and threats wins that game quick. the goal is to lead off with disruption, get a threat(preferably rhino), not them off Ad nauseam life and control their graveyard with DRS. Ideally you clock is faster than they can rebuild.
One of the keys to this archetype is CABAL THERAPY. Learn it, love it, know it. It is the single best 1 mana discard spell in magic and quite possibly the most knowledge testing.
that's all I have to say about that.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nok_
Should be pretty hard, I see that ANT is a bad match and there's at least one ANT player among us.
Often that 61st card gives you the right number of (specific) cards you want to run. 22 lands + 39 non-lands is pretty much standard, but not set in stone.
Any typical NicFit shell runs;
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thragtusk
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
The rest of the deck is highly tweakable, but most stuff has been tried and were somwhat on a concensus to what's good and what's not.
Fair.dec is your typical good match-up. And combo is your not so good match-up.
Depending on your meta you can tweak it to improve specific match-up.
Currently Junk is the color of choice since it has Path to Exile, which is the best spot removal a deck can run (sharing the symmetry with Veteran Explorer nullifies the negative side effect). And it helps deals with stuff we generally have difficulty dealing with; MUD, Marit Lage, Eldrazi.
On top of that, white has access to soome great hate bears, Gaddock Teeg being the most obvious one (ANT).
Lastly Junk runs the best creatures. Rhino is good and simple, but not my reason to run Junk. As a matter of fact, I believe that Junk is equally good without Rhino.
Sigarda is representing Junk. She is a nightmare for BGx and Swords.
Also you can run SFM package.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
What's your strategy against Shardless?
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Everything Shardless does is smaller than what we do and they hardly touch our GY.
B/c of Shardless Agent they can't run counters that aren't FoW so no need to worry about that. On blind Cabal Therapies just name FoW to clear those out as well. Their removal suite consists of Abrupt Decays so just drop Veteran Explorers and stuff with CMC > 3 on the board and you're fine.
Beside that, they tend to run Lilliana. Just drop a nice amount of creatures on the board or AD her, if you have it.
Shardless shouldn't be much of a problem. It should fold to our standard gameplan.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Echelon
Everything Shardless does is smaller than what we do and they hardly touch our GY.
B/c of Shardless Agent they can't run counters that aren't FoW so no need to worry about that. On blind Cabal Therapies just name FoW to clear those out as well. Their removal suite consists of Abrupt Decays so just drop Veteran Explorers and stuff with CMC > 3 on the board and you're fine.
Beside that, they tend to run Lilliana. Just drop a nice amount of creatures on the board or AD her, if you have it.
Shardless shouldn't be much of a problem. It should fold to our standard gameplan.
The problem is the absurd CA that can kill everything we put on the ground, and they have JTMS. Ancestral vision is the card that gets me dead usually.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rubblekill
The problem is the absurd CA that can kill everything we put on the ground, and they have JTMS. Ancestral vision is the card that gets me dead usually.
Goyf being 5/6 (and a lot more many times) and laughing @Rhino is another thing.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
I guess I'm just an incredibly lucky bastard.
What do they run in their deck that can kill everything that hits the ground on our side..? That lone Maelstrom Pulse and Toxic Deluge..? I'm perfectly fine with an opponent paying 5 life to answer a Siege Rhino.
Seriously, if you keep putting stuff on the board with CMC < 4 mana vs. Shardless you're the reason why the MU is hard. The same goes for when you refuse to power out a Meren to keep looping that stupid Dryad Arbor to perma-Fog their Goyf until you draw into a real answer. The deck plays so few real threats (read: Tarmagoyf. End of list) it shouldn't be a problem to answer those. Scavenging Ooze often also is a fine answer to Goyf. You just have to be careful for their ADs when taking that route.
Also, be aggressive with Cabal Therapy (and discard in general) to strip away anything that might possibly become a problem in the future. On your first Therapy name FoW and strip away stuff from there.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Echelon
I guess I'm just an incredibly lucky bastard.
What do they run in their deck that can kill everything that hits the ground on our side..? That lone Maelstrom Pulse and Toxic Deluge..? I'm perfectly fine with an opponent paying 5 life to answer a Siege Rhino.
Seriously, if you keep playing stuff < 4 mana vs. Shardless you're the reason why the MU is hard. The same goes for when you refuse to power out a Meren to keep looping that stupid Dryad Arbor to perma-Fog their Goyf. The deck plays so few real threats it shouldn't be a problem to answer those.
Also, be aggressive with Cabal Therapy (and discard in general) to strip away anything that might possibly become a problem in the future. On your first Therapy name FoW and strip away stuff from there.
They decay our equipments and pulse, (edict, bounce) deluge the rest. Decay in particular can keep us off having 2 dudes on the ground in front of Liliana.
Goyf is huge because of artifacts and/or pw in the gy, plus they have a fair amount of pw, and I find that pws are a problem for us. Maybe they are not, but that's my feeling.
I'm not saying the MU is impossible, it still is better than Miracles, but in my experience it has been a bit harder than you think it to be.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rubblekill
They decay our equipments and pulse, (edict, bounce) deluge the rest. Decay in particular can keep us off having 2 dudes on the ground in front of Liliana.
Goyf is huge because of artifacts and/or pw in the gy, plus they have a fair amount of pw, and I find that pws are a problem for us. Maybe they are not, but that's my feeling.
I'm not saying the MU is impossible, it still is better than Miracles, but in my experience it has been a bit more hard than you think it to be.
Yeah... I don't play equipments... And your equipments are CMC 3... And SFM is a 2 CMC 1/2 creature... You're doing this to yourself, lol.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
I have been playing a Bug midrange similar to shardless and the times I have played against Rhino fit (like Jbone) I have won due to the game usually comes down to discard like hymn cleaning out the hand. Having jace /lily is a big deal especially when you give them 2 lands. It is also just easier to gas back up having brainstorm and visions (or in my case truths) I still think shardless is a positive match up for any veteran explorer deck but like any ramp deck it can suffer from not having/getting countered/discarded the bombs that you need to pull ahead.
I am actually looking to pick therapy back up on a blue list. I am having some cravings for deed that only nic fit can fill. Anybody play a Bug list lately? Otherwise I can post the most recent list I used for thought.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
The first time I faced Shardless I went T1 Therapy on FoW, hit. T2 Land, Explorer, flashback Therapy on a known Hymn, double hit (he drew the second copy). The turn after that I drop a DRS and another Cabal Therapy on a known Lilliana. Hit and see Jace, immediately flashback Therapy taking that. Every once in a while this deck can be so unfair.
Game 2 I had a blind CT double hit on Tarmogoyf (my opponent waited with cracking a fetch on his first turn so I figured he wanted to wait and see if he could fetch up Bayou instead of an Underground Sea. And what costs 2 mana that bothers me and he would want a green source for? Yeah). My opponent was not having a good day, lol.
It was insane.
Rhino Fit has been wonderful vs. Shardless so far but again I'm an incredibly lucky bastard.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ricardio
Sofi is definitely the correct sword even though im a fan of sobm (but bruh, wolves)
Ask and you shall receive.
http://i.imgur.com/HK0m5rp.jpg
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tom4ik
I am actually looking to pick therapy back up on a blue list. I am having some cravings for deed that only nic fit can fill. Anybody play a Bug list lately? Otherwise I can post the most recent list I used for thought.
Be my guest !
This list is extremely resilient to the actual meta but kinda very slowish...
But if you like giving no hope to your opponent, it is tailor made ;)
BUG Walker Fit by Ralf
1 Polluted Delta
2 Forest
2 Island
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Bayou
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Thragtusk
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Wall of Blossoms
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 Ob Nixilis Reignited
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Negate
1 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
SB:
2 Extirpate
2 Flusterstorm
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Thoughtseize
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Engineered Plague
Edit: Here are some explanations about all those choices:
Two years ago, I have built and played a Walker Fit list to some few very good finishes (a little before Mc Darby's version).
You can find the former list: here
At that time, the list was very "raw" and I needed more playtests, ideas etc...
1) Wall of Blossoms has replaced "Baleful Strix"
It tooks me quite a while to realize that there was a problem that I could not solve:
How to have access to U, G and B to be able to properly cast Baleful & Decay by T2 without fearing wasteland ?
=> One had to go and at that time Wall of Blossoms seemed to be a "not-so-bad" substitute.
Since the deck is a bit more focused on green and black, the early game is much much smoother.
Hundred of games later, Wall of Blossom proved to just be plain superior to Baleful:
- It does not die to bolt. So at least you can block once with it, and look at your opponent wasting a bolt to get rid of it.
- It doesn't grow Tarmo
- It blocks Thalia
- It is GSZable
2) E.W had to go.
The deck wants B,G & U as fast as possible. One of each.
I lost many games because of E.Witness "GG" mana cost.
Here again it took me quite a while to identify the issue and to solve it.
3) Ooze "All Stars"
The only difficult MUs at that time were any Punishing list and lands.
Actually adding another Ooze has fixed the 4c loam MU (Jund in a lesser extend) in the sense that we have a tool now to properly fight back.
Ooze is also a monster in so many MU and as we have access to so many creature removals, you will really be able to take full profit of him.
4) Ob Nixilis
I knew I wanted to play the guy. I wouldn't say it is "better" than Vraska, but geez, its ultimate is WOW.
I have killed with Vraska before, but one can handle 3 assassin's tokens.
5) Playtests
The deck has been properly playtested during Christmas break against the whole deck-to-beat section and a few T1,5 / T2 decks.
As long as you like being in the control seat, you won't be disappointed and might be very suprised.
If you have any questions, feel free to shoot !
Ralf
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Ashiok sucks balls and since when is Negate a thing..? I'd take Spell Pierce over Negate.
Also... No MB DRS to help power out all those Walkers/at least put your opponent on a 10 turn clock..? And don't you have better cards for your SB than DRS..?
Wall of Blossoms is useless. Yes, it replaces itself, but it can't block Delver and dies to Goyf/Batterskull/Gurmag Angler/opposing Rhinoes etc. At least Strix kills something whenever it blocks.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Negate has always been NicFit's allround counterspell. It's a hardcounter.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bobmans
Negate has always been NicFit's allround counterspell. It's a hardcounter.
Still sucks balls. And that's why I dislike blue Fit. Your opponents play 8 free counters while you durdle w/ keeping 2 mana open at all times. Or 3 whenever your opponent runs Daze. Or 4 when you expect Spell Pierce.
Talk about opportunity cost...
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rubblekill
thank you for making my morning!
I looked at my mtgo list last night and saw the sfm build I currently have is only 1 deed in the board with 3 sfm, 1 jitte, 1 sofi, 1 batterskull and 2 lingering souls.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
The way you beat Shardless is to win the skies and prioritize Vets. That's all there is to it. Zenith up / play as many Vets as you possibly can, get a huge mana advantage over them -- and then play large flying monsters. Baneslayer is the best option because of first strike (Strix), but AAoT is very strong too. We clog the board enough / sweep the board enough to deal with the Goyfs, and their Visions are offset through our repeated X-for-1s + our own natural CA, which is nothing to scoff at.
If you're worried about Shardless beyond any of this, run/sideboard 4-mana combat walkers. Elspeth Knight-Errant, Sorin, Lord of Innistrad, and the newest (4-mana) Gideon are all viable contenders. Gideon is probably the worst of these, but if you don't have access to older cards because new to format, he'll do for now. The key is you need planeswalkers that are just out of Abrupt Decay range, which also defend themselves and pressure Shardless's walkers.
Matt and I both favor 61 cards, as do several other prominent posters, and our disease has spread to most of the rest of the people in here (with some stalwart exceptions). Bottom line is that the < .5% you're missing out on a given card in your opener isn't worth losing the toolbox option for Zenith, and the moment you set off a single Veteran, you've already surpassed that negligible disadvantage.
Negate is fine. Ashiok is actually quite strong, although the format is too fast for her right now. None of these things LOOK good, I'll grant you -- but neither did Painful Truths, and now look at us. Blue versions run a lot of cards that look like garbage even to other Nic Fitters, but they get the job done because blue versions operate on a completely different axis. They're glorious bastards.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arianrhod
Negate is fine. Ashiok is actually quite strong, although the format is too fast for her right now. None of these things LOOK good, I'll grant you -- but neither did Painful Truths, and now look at us. Blue versions run a lot of cards that look like garbage even to other Nic Fitters, but they get the job done because blue versions operate on a completely different axis. They're glorious bastards.
Actually negate in this particular build is very very fine.
You have tons of out to creature spells:
- 4 decay
- 3 deed
- 3 Liliana
- 3 Jace (+ cabal therapy for example)
- 2 Ob
- some creatures to Wall
The UU requirement for a standard counterspell is really pushing hard and something you cannot afford.
And you definitely cannot play mana conditional counterspells in a Nic Fit shell...This is asking to be punished really hard in control mirrors.
As aforementioned in the past, ashiok can be seen as Liliana n°4.
Its ability is unique and it does give you another wincon because this PW kills. Yes, it kills.
It has to be dealt with. Sometimes it will be a 3 turns fog and nothing else. Sometimes, it will runaway with the game.
Obviously he is weak in several MU that's why I am not playing more than one copy.
I think this version can be seen (or at least as I see it) as an ultimate control Nic Fit.
You won't win big. Most opponents will just concede to Liliana + Jace + OB (or whatever PW you have elected) in play. Because eventually you'll reach that point.
This doesn't mean you won't be able to win through Thragtusk or ooze beats. It will mostly depend on what you are trying to achieve, clock wise.
Sideboard is mainly dedicated to combo MU. DRS will mainly replace or complement Veteran by lowering the curve while providing a not so bad clock. Most PW would be sided out and you will just transform into a bear + counter/discard backup BUG shell.
For those interested, I can also provide sideboard tables.
Ralf.
