Yeah, didn't think so :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Ectoplasm
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Yeah, didn't think so :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Ectoplasm
Anyone feverishly testing this guy:
http://wizards.com/mtg/images/tcg/pr...i5pr61m_EN.jpg
What did you take out for him?
Also, are you testing Goblin Guide and if so, again, what are you taking out for him?
I took out 2 mogg war marshall and 2 chieftain for Instigator.
The list I'm playing has:
4 waste
2 caverns
17 mountains
4 matron/chief/lackey/ring/vial/pile/gempalm/instigator
1 siege gang
2 chieftain
2 stingscourger
I'd like to fit 3rd and 4th chieftain, 3rd scourger, 2nd SGC, but the deck has become really tight..
My current list:
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Aether Vial
2 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Stingscourger
2 Boartusk Liege
1 Wort
1 Lightning Crafter
1 Goblin Chieftain
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Gemstone caverns
1 Badlands
2 Taiga
1 Forest
7 Fetchlands
3 Wastelands
6 Mountain
Pyrokinesis and Stingscourger are great with instigator and lackey, and the solo caverns has helped me a lot to drop turn one instigator.
What about the 2/2 Haste for R goblin (goblin guide). Would his drawback really crippling (whenever ~ deals damage to an opponent, that player reveals the top card of his/her library. If it's a land put that to it's owners hand)?
Read the past four or five pages. The debate is that for a 2/2 haste, the drawback isn't worth it. Consider you're giving away CA and not gaining much tempo off the back of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by (nameless one)
Wait why does everyone like WI so much?
Its only a 1/1 that cost RR.
It doesn't make any of our bad MU's better.
Its a bad top deck and bad off ringleader.
If you run 6-8 lackey effect don't you run a higher chance of connecting with lackey and only having a WI to put into play?
This deck still has a hard time vs. goyf, combo, landstill(moat/humilty).
I think making room for thoughtseize would make more sense, BUT I don't think I need it gobs runs great without this little doublestrike guy.
What is the reasoning behind running Gemstone Caverns over Chrome Mox?
You don't need to remove a relevant card.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayzonious
Fixed.
...Quote:
Originally Posted by jimirynk
http://sales.starcitygames.com/cards...ne_caverns.jpg
>_>
They're both bad..
I'm not lucky enough to ever get this in a keepable hand on the draw.
I found that getting enough red mana was hard enough with out more lands that dont produce red mana.(beside the off chance I get lucky..)
Inb4 sex joke.
I more or less agree with this. He's another dead goblin when you're losing and win more when you're winning.Quote:
Originally Posted by jimirynk
It's the worst when you're in an unfavorable board position and you really need a CA spell (or to chain a few CA spells) to dig back out: Ringleader, Matron, Siege-Gang, Mogg War Marshall, Sting Scourger; these can all buy you some time by providing a body + w/e: a FoF, a Demonic, 3 tokens, 2 tokens, a bounced threat.
I want to test it some more, but I really don't see this Goblin as being an x4 unless maybe there is a drastic design shift that utilizes him more. The deck is already running alot of cards to cheat casting costs: Lackey, Warchief, and Vial; Instigator does not seem better than any of these. And as mentioned above the deck needs to maintain a solid balance between it's means of cheating Goblins into play, and it's Goblins that are worth cheating into play.
I've found Caverns to be quite good personally. I'm running 3 of them in Mono-Red currently along with 4 Wasteland and 16 Mountain and I've yet to see trouble with Red sources.Quote:
Originally Posted by jimirynk
Maybe you've been unlucky with it, idk, but I've found the trade off is really quite reasonable. You're losing your worst card to start off with a land in play and since you're on the draw you're still starting with 7 cards in hand. Most of the time there is a card that doesn't fit the hand, something that is sub-par against a particular strategy, sometimes you can just pitch an extra land. Whatever is pitched is helping push you into the mid-late game faster than your opponent, giving you a tempo advantage.
Caverns also just meshes so well with some of the other cards in the deck (and counteracts popular opposing cards): it allows you to pair a 1 drop while attacking their development with a Wasteland, gives you Daze proof Vial or Lackey, nets you turn 2 Warchiefs, etc etc.
Just wanted to post this cause I thought it was rather interesting. This has probably been discussed before. I know this is not an optimal build of Goblins.
R/u Goblins
// Lands
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [U] Volcanic Island
4 [BD] Mountain (2)
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [REW] Wasteland
// Creatures
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
2 [PLC] Stingscourger
4 [EVG] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [EVG] Goblin Warchief
4 [EVG] Goblin Matron
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
2 [SHM] Boartusk Liege
2 [10E] Siege-Gang Commander
// Spells
4 [DD2] Daze
4 [DS] AEther Vial
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [5E] Pyroblast
SB: 3 [PS] Rushing River
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
I know that the lack of Weirdings is bad. I know that a lack of artifact/enchantment removal is bad. However, I think it's still a very interesting build. Let me explain why:
Daze is great at building tempo. It allows early protection for Lackey and can keep other problem stuff off the board too (Goyf, etc). With Wasteland and Port, the potency of Daze becomes stronger, allowing it to counter stuff like Engineered Plague and Wrath of God. Boartusk is great for getting out of Pyroclasm and Firespout range, while pumping your guys out of Engineered Plague range (I had considered Chieftan, but decided Boartusk did more for this version because of the lack of everything else).
The sideboard is a total mess, not sure what should go there honestly.
Like I said, I know it's not an optimal version, and probably worse than the other splashes. However, what do you guys think? It's fun, at the very least.
It deals 2 damage to the opponent when attacking, so it probably should be considered a 2/1.Quote:
Originally Posted by jimirynk
Yeah, combo is still a bad matchup, and all, but I guess it improves the matchup against Goyf.dec. I'll explain below.Quote:
Originally Posted by jimirynk
So were Fanatic, Lackey, War Marshall. Unless your curve starts at 3, you will run bad ringleader topdecks.Quote:
Originally Posted by jimirynk
I'm running WI instead of 2 War Marshals and 2 Chieftain. If this is the problem, just take out the 2 War Marshals and play with 6 Lackeys effects. What do you want to play with lackey? War Marshall?Quote:
Originally Posted by jimirynk
vs Combo there's nothing we can do unless we're willing to devote 8 SB slots to fight it.Quote:
Originally Posted by jimirynk
Against Goyf WI works almost like War Marshall: it buys time. Either they're removing it, or they will keep the goyf on the defense.
Against Landstill/MWC/MUC and other almost creature-less decks, this guy is good. Would you prefer War Marshall or WI? The opponent must answer it NOW or you're getting an insane advantage with matron or ringleader. It exchanges with a just played Mishra, and the opponent needs more than a single Soldier token (elspeth or decree) to kill him.
Here's a game I had against Quinn:How is War Marshall ever better than this?Quote:
I start with lackey, he swords.
I play Istigator. He doesn't have a second sword. I drop a Ringleader (revealing ringleader) and Ringleader (revealing Warchief+Pile). I drop a Chieftain.
Oh yeah, this is much better with ringleader than WI.Quote:
Originally Posted by jimirynk
My thoughts on Warren Instigator:
This is an excellent card for goblins and should be run as a 4-of. It actually changes the way you play the deck. You now have 8 creatures (along with Vial) that allow you to "cheat" in creatures much faster than their casting cost allows. To maximize this, I recommend the following.
1) Play at least three Siege-Gang Commander. Connecting with a Lackey/WI early and getting SGC on the battlefield early will cause a lot of decks to just scoop.
2) Do not skimp on removal. It is imperative to clear a path for your Lackey/WIs, so you should at least eight removal spells. Ideally, this involves a light black splash for Warren Weirding, which gets rid of big creatures and Mongoose. I recommend Stingscourger as the other removal spell. It does not matter much that it is not permanent removal. It gets all of the commonly-played creatures off the board (except Mongoose). Once you connect with a WI, you are in such a great position to win, that it won't matter if they replay their Gofy (or whatever). This probably means cutting Gempalm Incinerators, which can be great in the late game, but fail to remove a lot of problem creatures early (Gofy, Tombstalker, Mongoose, Dreadnought, Nacanti, Ape, etc.).
3) Do not cut piledrivers. Make sure that you run a full set of these. Just because WI is a two-drop, this does not mean that you should be cutting piledivers to make room for it. The two cards serve different functions. Piledrivers are needed deal a lot of damage quickly, and they can be a great late-game draw. In fact, WI's ability to put two goblins on the battlefield makes piledriver even better than it was before. You should instead cut your War Marshalls, Frogtossers, etc.
4) Do not load up on "lords." Some players want to play more lords to take advantage of WI's double strike ability, but this is a mistake. It doesn't matter much if WI swings in for 4 instead of 2. The only thing that is important is that WI connects and cheats in goblins. If you are skimping on removal to make way for more lords, you are not taking proper advantage of this new card. Goblin Chieftain is the most playable of the three lords, but I plan on cutting mine altogether.
5) You do not need to play WI on turn one. Many players seem to think this card is worthless if you can't get him on the board during the first turn. They are talking about running cards like Simean Spirit Guide, Chrome Mox, or Gemstone Caverns. I think that this is unnecessary. A turn one Vial or Lackey should draw out the countermagic or removal that your opponent has. You may find yourself resolving and connecting with WI more than you might expect because of these other "must counter" spells. If you have two other red goblins in hand and you imprint one on a mox, then you aren't taking full advantage of it's ability. I've never tested Caverns, but I am skeptical, considering that it will be colorless most of the time and is a dead card in multiples.
O I'm running a 3 color list with 4 waste 3 muta's and a swamp so It gets tricky sometimes.Quote:
Originally Posted by from Cairo
The MD I've been fucking around with.
4 Aether Vial
1 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Mogg Fanatic
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
4 Warren Weirding
2 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Mountain
3 Mutavault
1 Swamp
2 Taiga
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
It's dead in multiples, unless you can pitch one to the other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin
The fact that on the play it's just colorless doesn't matter much, considering it's just a 2of, and you still have 17 red sources.
Remember that you can pitch whatever to Caverns (lands, vials, lackeys...), and that its ability is optional. In case, even if on the draw and with it in hand, you can decide to just play it like a colorless one.
Caverns is also a permanent mana source, and this allows you to do broken things even when there's no WI involved, like turn 2 warchief, turn 3 Matron, Pile, Pile.
For the other things I'm with you, but some number of lords, likely 6, are required in the deck:
- Haste is indeed good for the team, end especially with 8 lackeys. The opponent is going to fear the lackey+attack in the same turn quite a bit.
- The lords help you not overextending into mass removal. With haste the opponent has to wrath the Lord, or risk an alpha strike for 10+ dmg.
- The lords are good creatures to lackey in. We don't want to play stingscourger out of Lackey, don't we?
- The lords are good both when you're winning and when you're losing.
EDIT: oh, also the SGC thing. I don't think we need more of those: if WI connects we can still go matron->SGC, play SGC. 2 should be the right number, but right now I prefer playing only one, with 6 lords and 6 removal in the deck.
I simply stated that TS will improve your bad MU's more than a 1/1.Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenOne
You guys realize that Warren Instigator's never a dead goblin, right?
If your opponent has two threats on the board and you have a Warren Instigator, how many of these threats do you think your opponent's going to risk swinging with? The answer is between 0 and 1, depending on the durability of the threat. Your opponent might risk it with a Tarmogoyf left back to block, or something else strong against your removal suite.
Additionally, before, whenever you had a Vial at one, your opponent would often have to leave a blocker back (Or mana untapped) for fear of EOT Vial Lackey, untap, swing. Now, with Warren Instigator, you get to extend this threat another turn. Vial at 2 has often been the lag turn where your opponent can do whatever without fearing Matrons/Chiefs yet. Now there's a legitimate threat to it.
Making your opponent not swing is what Warren Instigator's going to do beautifully. The advantage of this? You're Vial Goblins. You are the Jesus of Magic decks by turn five or six. Time is your friend.
Also, uh, when he hits? Epic succeed.
So by my count, this makes him an improvement against -every- matchup. Here's the breakdown.
Aggro: He makes them not swing as heavily. If they have removal, the argument of what he does is pointless, because all 2-drop goblins are equally dead to removal. Forcing your opponent to remove him is actually an advantage.
Heavy Control: Another guy they have to have removal for, another guy who lets you cheat Goblins into play while dodging counters and disrupting manabases.
Countertop: This means you have more Lackeys than they have removal spells. Neat.
Combo: Once he's on the board, you at least don't have to spend your mana on any more Goblins ever. He can't hurt.