[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)

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Originally Posted by HardBrain

i think deck have so many answers that its enought o handle match with combo and fair deck. We are combo too with Thune+Feeder or Melira+Finks+Varolz Infinite life...thune add infinite dmg to it. Anyone think similar like me? it is good deck for playin?

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In general Nic Fit is not great against combo because we are to slow. Combo can go of turn 1 or 2. I played against combo several times and unfortunately died turn 1 before I could cast anything. The spikefeeder combo is very nice but takes time to set up.
On the other hand, each deck has its weakness and bad match ups. If you like the deck and get some practice in, it is great to play.
It has been said before but Nic Fit is difficult to pilot well (as I have found out from personal experience :smile:)

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Originally Posted by HardBrain

1 Yosei, the Morning Star
2 Archangel of Thune
3 Academy Rector
1 Sun Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Varolz, the Scar-Striped
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Spike Feeder
4 Veteran Explorer

2 Diabolic Intent
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith

3 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Recurring Nightmare
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Oblivion Ring

1 Scrubland
2 Phyrexian Tower
2 Savannah
2 Swamp
3 Bayou
3 Forest
3 Plains
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath

SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Qasali Pridemage
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 2 Nevermore
SB: 1 Nether Void
SB: 3 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 Curse of Death's Hold
SB: 1 Stony Silence
SB: 1 Choke


i think deck have so many answers that its enought o handle match with combo and fair deck. We are combo too with Thune+Feeder or Melira+Finks+Varolz Infinite life...thune add infinite dmg to it. Anyone think similar like me? it is good deck for playin?

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The problem with melira combo is that it's really hard to assemble. 3 cards is a lot more than 2, and melira is pretty much dead without kitchen finks or murderous redcap (which you don't even run). I also think 3 rectors is too much because deathrite shaman blanks it.

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

I've been starting to think that despite the fact that the new legend rule kind of dicks it over, Faith's Fetters may still be correct. Most "jace decks" are down to 2, MAYBE 3 copies due to True-Name having a good matchup against Jace as a card. While it's still not ideal, Fetters does shut down Jace for some number of turns while they need to dig up another one, which could buy us the necessary time to stabilize.

--Edit ---

It should be noted that Exclusion Ritual exists. That being said, I think that Ritual is just too damned expensive, and I remember that the 4 life on Fetters saved my ass more times than I care to admit.

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Hmm....

is it testing time?

Since my idyllic tutors aren't in the mainboard, and I don't think I can consistently rely on getting rector into my yard, I think the answer for jace will go in the side. Maybe a maelstrom pulse in the main. The only problem is what to cut from my side.

I'm still thinking about mindbreak trap vs. ethersworn canonist. I think mindbreak trap is harder to deal with, but ethersworn canonist is more versatile (ex. against omnitell and hypergenesis). Is that true? What other decks is canonist good against?

Canonist is good vs Elves, TES, ANT, Belcher, Cheeri0s, OmniTell, Doomsday, Spanish Inq, Hypergenesis, and some other random decks. Some people have brought in Canonist vs Scapewish and it's been annoying if not debilitating -- stops Therapy + flashback, Wish + kill you, etc. I kind of don't like bringing it in from the opposing deck's standpoint, but I can't deny that people have done it and it has (rarely) mattered. This suggests it might also be boardable, in theory, vs wish variants of Aggro Loam.

Pontiff is a reason to play GBW Pod-based versions atm. A tutorable way to kill True-Name is nothing to scoff at.

I wouldn't worry about Deathrite, pfire -- I'd run the full 3 Rectors if you want to play a specifically Rector build. Deathrite is falling out of favor, and you should be running probably around 4 spot removals at the moment anyway (something like 2 Decay, 1 Pulse, 1 Vindicate). Those coupled with your Deeds should be enough ways to get rid of DRS -- plus, a lot of your average legacy players still don't know the DRS trick anyway.

Arian, represent dude. Links to your video(s)?

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Originally Posted by hymntotourcock

Arian, represent dude. Links to your video(s)?

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If you google "twitch tales of adventure" you'll find the videos. I'll try to put up a link tonight if I can remember. You'll have to skip around a little until you find where I come on -- the stream is compressed into like 3-4 huge videos.

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

If you google "twitch tales of adventure" you'll find the videos. I'll try to put up a link tonight if I can remember. You'll have to skip around a little until you find where I come on -- the stream is compressed into like 3-4 huge videos.

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You're on the first, about an hour in if I remember correctly.

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

Canonist is good vs Elves, TES, ANT, Belcher, Cheeri0s, OmniTell, Doomsday, Spanish Inq, Hypergenesis, and some other random decks. Some people have brought in Canonist vs Scapewish and it's been annoying if not debilitating -- stops Therapy + flashback, Wish + kill you, etc. I kind of don't like bringing it in from the opposing deck's standpoint, but I can't deny that people have done it and it has (rarely) mattered. This suggests it might also be boardable, in theory, vs wish variants of Aggro Loam.

Pontiff is a reason to play GBW Pod-based versions atm. A tutorable way to kill True-Name is nothing to scoff at.

I wouldn't worry about Deathrite, pfire -- I'd run the full 3 Rectors if you want to play a specifically Rector build. Deathrite is falling out of favor, and you should be running probably around 4 spot removals at the moment anyway (something like 2 Decay, 1 Pulse, 1 Vindicate). Those coupled with your Deeds should be enough ways to get rid of DRS -- plus, a lot of your average legacy players still don't know the DRS trick anyway.

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I like Canonist the most of any hate bear for a non blue fit deck. I hate MB trap. Any good storm player can easily play around it. It is much better in a fast deck where you can limit the amount of time that they can play around it. Unfortunately nic fit is much too slow most of the time. I think a hard lock piece like Nether Void or something is much more effective. Unless my meta was like 50% T1 combo deck, I would not run MB trap in this deck.

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

I wouldn't worry about Deathrite, pfire -- I'd run the full 3 Rectors if you want to play a specifically Rector build. Deathrite is falling out of favor, and you should be running probably around 4 spot removals at the moment anyway (something like 2 Decay, 1 Pulse, 1 Vindicate). Those coupled with your Deeds should be enough ways to get rid of DRS -- plus, a lot of your average legacy players still don't know the DRS trick anyway.

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Good point.

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

I like Canonist the most of any hate bear for a non blue fit deck. I hate MB trap. Any good storm player can easily play around it. It is much better in a fast deck where you can limit the amount of time that they can play around it. Unfortunately nic fit is much too slow most of the time. I think a hard lock piece like Nether Void or something is much more effective. Unless my meta was like 50% T1 combo deck, I would not run MB trap in this deck.

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Ok then, switching out the traps.

...do realize that I run nether void as well.

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...I think I'm going to make some swaps in thune fit. I don't know if teeg is worth it in the mainboard. I have no idea what to cut from my side though.

1 Nether Void
1 Humility
2 Thoughtseize
1 Memoricide
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Orzhov Pontiff
3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Harmonic Sliver
2 Idyllic Tutor
2 Ethersworn Canonist

After that, I think I want a mainboard way to deal with jace. This will probably be faith's fetters. I'll also see what maelstrom pulse can do, though I think fetters is just better since it can be tutored for with rector and idyllic.

Have people had problems with batterskull in nic fit?

Does no one run Thrun as a way to get at a Jace? In Thune fit you could run Sigarda. Obviously it doesn't KILL Jace. But you know, it kills Jace.

For those of you wondering about the rector version here's my updated list. I've been on rector for over a year now and the deck has served me well. I don't quite understand what the thrill about thune combo is, I simply think it adds too many individually dead cards to the deck. Anyway I'll be running this at a local on Saturday and if anyone wants to pick my brain feel free. Also Exclusion Ritual is pretty great when you put it on a Jace.

The List:

4x Therapy
4x Explorer
4x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Academy Rector
3x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Pernicious Deed
3x Marsh Flats
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Forest
2x Baneslayer Angel
2x Swamp
2x Plains
2x Windswept Heath
2x Thoughteize
2x Phyrexian Tower
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Sun Titan
1x Eternal Witness
1x Moat
1x Recycle
1x Fierce Empath
1x Kukusho
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Bayou
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
1x Reccuring Nightmare
1x Thragtusk
1x Sigarada
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Vindicate
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Garruk Relentless

Sideboard:
3x Carpet of Flowers
2x Thalia
2x Golgari Charm
1x Extripate
1x Cranial Extraction
1x Memoricide
1x Nethervoid
1x Teeg
1x Humility
1x Ashen Rider
1x Exclusion Ritual

Another small event today with Scapewish.
Beat Painter's Servant (2-0). 1st Turn Blood Moon both games. 1st game didn't matter much. 2nd game I had a Vet to stop him from attacking for a while before deed cleaned up.
Lost to Punishing Jund (0-2). Goyf beats the 1st game. His topdeck were better the 2nd. That's the matchup I miss decays.
Beat UWR delver. (2-0). He kept slow hands both games while I ripped his hand apart.
Drew with White Stax. (1-1) Drew so we both got prizes and drew anyways. A timely deed along with huntmaster sealed the first game. 2nd game his was down to 5 before smokestack took off. He cast Armageddon against me twice. :(

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

Brief report from the ToA 40 duals / 40 fetches event on Saturday.
R3: Bugstill

He mulls to 6. He doesn't do anything relevant, and I kill him.

Game two: he mulls to 5, doesn't do anything relevant, and I kill him.

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That was me! :tongue:

It was nice to meet you at the event, I didn't know your Source handle. Congratulations on your finish!



Side note to anyone, which 6-drops have people found to be highly impactful in a GWB shell, and which 6-drops are found to be unimpressive? There are so many True-Name Nemesis floating around that Moat is probably one of the stronger cards to run in Nic Fit.

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Originally Posted by TakeYourTime

That was me! :tongue:

It was nice to meet you at the event, I didn't know your Source handle. Congratulations on your finish!



Side note to anyone, which 6-drops have people found to be highly impactful in a GWB shell, and which 6-drops are found to be unimpressive? There are so many True-Name Nemesis floating around that Moat is probably one of the stronger cards to run in Nic Fit.

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Grave Titan, Yosei, and Sun Titan

Still testing others like Armada Wurm and other GSZ non prime time 6 drops

Ah, hey =)

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Originally Posted by Fizzeler

Grave Titan, Yosei, and Sun Titan

Still testing others like Armada Wurm and other GSZ non prime time 6 drops

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Pretty much this, although I maintain an intense hatred for Grave Titan. I'd add Primeval Titan and Kokusho to the list -- Primeval needs lands to get, though, and Kokusho is slow to kill, although it will actually kill someone unlike Yosei. They're much more situational, but they'll work.

Also, there is the old Gifts-build tech of Rune-Scarred Demon. I still say that RSD -> Nightmare is just waiting to be broken, even if Gifts isn't the answer. Making Nightmare GSZable, no matter how indirectly, is not something that we should scoff at.

Also, discussion flashpoint:

We've never really considered Tooth and Nail. Should we?

What could we do with it?

What would be the best color setup?

What advantages does it have over something like Scapeshift (I can think of two or three immediately)?

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

Also, discussion flashpoint:

We've never really considered Tooth and Nail. Should we?

What could we do with it?

What would be the best color setup?

What advantages does it have over something like Scapeshift (I can think of two or three immediately)?

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1) From my point of view. Never.
Why ? -> asking to pay 9 mana before permission IS a lot. Even soft counters are dealbreakers...

2) Slam Emrakul + another hasty dude giving haste to everybody (urabrask, kragma warcaller, Maelstrom wanderer) ?

3) Based on point n°2 UGR or BGR

4) None...except maybe a very slightly better MU against S&T ??

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

Also, discussion flashpoint:

We've never really considered Tooth and Nail. Should we?

What could we do with it?

What would be the best color setup?

What advantages does it have over something like Scapeshift (I can think of two or three immediately)?

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Iona+painter?

Slap in some grindstones for the hell of it too. Name green with painter and use gsz to tutor for any creature in your deck? Just an idea

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Originally Posted by Ralf

1) From my point of view. Never.
Why ? -> asking to pay 9 mana before permission IS a lot. Even soft counters are dealbreakers...

2) Slam Emrakul + another hasty dude giving haste to everybody (urabrask, kragma warcaller, Maelstrom wanderer) ?

3) Based on point n°2 UGR or BGR

4) None...except maybe a very slightly better MU against S&T ??

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Let me frame the question a bit:

I'm wondering if T&N might be a way to emulate Scapewish's success while simultaneously removing Scape's inherent flaws.

For reference, the advantages I thought of earlier:

-) "Combo pieces" are creatures, which means that they do something when you randomly draw one. Randomly drawing a Valakut / having one in the opening hand sucks.
-) Your combo doesn't lose to wasteland. It may lose to Swords to Plowshares, depending on what the combo is, but we can protect that with Therapy. We can't Therapy Wasteland.
-) If you draw / lose a combo piece at some point, Toothing for like a Titan + a Thrag is still probably fine, even if it doesn't win on the spot. Disabled Scapeshifts are basically 4-mana do-nothings...they can shuffle for Top, but that's it.
-) Fewer manabase constraints means more stability. You still would run a heavy ramp creature package, though, which means that your manabase would actually be probably the most stable manabase in the entirety of legacy.

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Iona + Servant is a good one. Grindstone gives the deck a nut draw: T1 Therapy, T2 Explorer, flashback, Painter, Grindstone, pass and dare you to do something about it after two Therapies. Iona is castable and improves the Show and Tell matchup marginally. Servant calling green seems reasonable -- Green Sun for Canonist is legit.

If we're in GBW anyway, there may be something to be done with Rector shenanigans -- Tooth for Rector + Varolz might go places.

Thune + Spike, too, which is a combo that some versions are already running anyway.

It's also important to remember that Tooth for 7 can do things -- we don't necessarily need the full 9. Double 1-sided Show and Tell can be good sometimes, too -- especially with something like Living Wish or Fierce Empath (Worldly Tutor or Eladamri's Call, even?) to help assemble.

Grave Titan is okay, I want that slot to be GSZ right now and Primeval Titan is not the best in Pod (although he can fetch up Township)

Tooth and Nail is interesting can tutor up several 2 card combos ones I can think of (that have not been mentioned)

Conscript + Kiki (or any untap creature with kiki)

Necrotic Ooze + Corpse Connesuir

Elesh Norn + God head of Awe

Sun Titan + E Witness (not a combo per say, but still good)

Rector + Sac outlet

Resto + some ETB creature

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

Let me frame the question a bit:

I'm wondering if T&N might be a way to emulate Scapewish's success while simultaneously removing Scape's inherent flaws.

For reference, the advantages I thought of earlier:

-) "Combo pieces" are creatures, which means that they do something when you randomly draw one. Randomly drawing a Valakut / having one in the opening hand sucks.
-) Your combo doesn't lose to wasteland. It may lose to Swords to Plowshares, depending on what the combo is, but we can protect that with Therapy. We can't Therapy Wasteland.
-) If you draw / lose a combo piece at some point, Toothing for like a Titan + a Thrag is still probably fine, even if it doesn't win on the spot. Disabled Scapeshifts are basically 4-mana do-nothings...they can shuffle for Top, but that's it.
-) Fewer manabase constraints means more stability. You still would run a heavy ramp creature package, though, which means that your manabase would actually be probably the most stable manabase in the entirety of legacy.

It's also important to remember that Tooth for 7 can do things -- we don't necessarily need the full 9. Double 1-sided Show and Tell can be good sometimes, too -- especially with something like Living Wish or Fierce Empath (Worldly Tutor or Eladamri's Call, even?) to help assemble.

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1) Well, having a tooth & nail in your opening is like a mull to 6. Nothing different than scape.
2) If I had to pay 9 in Legacy I wish my spell to be a end-gaming one.
3) Your combo also die to wasteland, just in a different manner, except if you plan to go for at least 9(7) basics...

Don't take me wrong. I did play Tooth & Nail years ago. I like the card but to make it viable in Legacy and in Nic Fit is just another story.

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

Does no one run Thrun as a way to get at a Jace? In Thune fit you could run Sigarda. Obviously it doesn't KILL Jace. But you know, it kills Jace.

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I run sigarda as well, but it's always good to have multiple options. I only run 3 gsz, and jace decks can just swords/force all your creatures so it could be hard to pod into sigarda. It also gives your opponent a turn to brainstorm.

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Originally Posted by plogan

For those of you wondering about the rector version here's my updated list. I've been on rector for over a year now and the deck has served me well. I don't quite understand what the thrill about thune combo is, I simply think it adds too many individually dead cards to the deck.

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If you would call thune or feeder individually dead, then yes.

Thune is arguably even better than baneslayer, and feeder buys a lot of time and has a lot of utility.

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Originally Posted by Ralf

1) Well, having a tooth & nail in your opening is like a mull to 6. Nothing different than scape.
2) If I had to pay 9 in Legacy I wish my spell to be a end-gaming one.
3) Your combo also die to wasteland, just in a different manner, except if you plan to go for at least 9(7) basics...

Don't take me wrong. I did play Tooth & Nail years ago. I like the card but to make it viable in Legacy and in Nic Fit is just another story.

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Don't get me wrong -- I'm not suggesting that we all rush out and buy a set of Tooth and Nails. It's mostly just a discussion point. Nic Fit as an archetype is capable of virtually anything, and it's always good to have a robust debate.

That said, allow me to continue to play devil's advocate...

1) False. There are very, very few instances where I consider any card to be an auto-mull in my opening hand. If I'm playing a Kiki-jiki to Tooth for in a GBW deck with 0 red sources, then yes, that counts. If I open a Scapeshift in my 7 with Scapewish, I'm actually usually pretty happy about it -- it means I don't need to dig for the win. I already have it -- it's just a matter of getting to it and resolving it safely. While it doesn't do anything by itself, just the knowledge that I have it allows me to play differently -- I can use my Wishes to either get protection (Thoughtseize) or answers for various problematic board states to stall out until Scape comes online. And so forth. Tooth, I think, is the same way. I wouldn't really care if I opened one in my 7 because then I wouldn't have to go looking for it later, and I could focus on just ramping / controlling the game to that point.

2) This I agree with. That being said, all I'm suggesting here is that if the cogs get screwed up and we HAVE to Tooth for JUST a Titan + a 5-drop, well oh well. I am 100% in favor of the idea that if Tooth resolves, you should win immediately. A lot of the more enginey things that Tooth can do need to be dismissed for this reason -- like Ooze + Corpse Conn is cute, but highly unlikely to win the game on the spot unless you have a gajillion life and you go get Griselbrand....but then that requires you to run a Griselbrand, which is in itself weak to graveyard hate.

It's also the problem with Iona + Servant -- if you're dead on board, it doesn't win you the game. Ironically, ThuneFeeder might be one of the best combos, here -- if you're dead on board when you Tooth for ThuneFeeder, you're not going to be dead on board anymore, even if your entire board gets annihilated or some such.

3) Ehhhhhhh. I usually run between 7 and 8 basics in Nic Fit. While Wasteland is still annoying, I don't consider it a deal-breaker. We'll get to that much mana. Hell, I've been able to hardcast Emrakul a few times. Wood Elves and Sakura-Tribes would help with this, too. You aren't realistically going much further than Scape does -- one more land drop is irrelevant in decks with this much stable mana.

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Originally Posted by pfiremc13

I run sigarda as well, but it's always good to have multiple options. I only run 3 gsz, and jace decks can just swords/force all your creatures so it could be hard to pod into sigarda. It also gives your opponent a turn to brainstorm.



If you would call thune or feeder individually dead, then yes.

Thune is arguably even better than baneslayer, and feeder buys a lot of time and has a lot of utility.

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Vouch for Thune and Feeder being good on their own. I do think that Baneslayer is still better when going solo, but Feeder can be unexpectedly amazing.

Thrun gets chumped for days, and doesn't get around a blocking True-Name. He's okay for like GB versions, and GBR Punishing because they usually run Kessig Wolf Run...but outside of those two instances, I wouldn't touch Thrun. Waste of a slot.

Carpet helps with Jace, because it helps you get your stuff deployed before he comes down, ensuring that when he does, he's dead immediately. That said, even with Carpets in my list I've sometimes still randomly lost to Jace. At least Jace's popularity is declining in the metagame at the moment. I keep hoping we'll get an Acidic Slime variant that can nuke planeswalkers. It's an obvious print, and it's one of those things that would immediately give Nic Fit as an archetype a huge power spike.

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Originally Posted by pfiremc13

I have no idea what to cut from my side though.

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This will be a canonist I think. There is already a lot of combo hate in my board.

On the basics I'm at 7 now in Pod, but is 8 correct? It feels right given I have Pods 3 4 drops, 3 5 drops, and 2 6 drops

I have also been Testing Whip Of Erebos to some good success, the reanimation is great with Pod and lifelink beats most midrange and tempo decks outright

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Originally Posted by Fizzeler

On the basics I'm at 7 now in Pod, but is 8 correct? It feels right given I have Pods 3 4 drops, 3 5 drops, and 2 6 drops

I have also been Testing Whip Of Erebos to some good success, the reanimation is great with Pod and lifelink beats most midrange and tempo decks outright

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I can see the Whip being solid. I'm not sure which is better between Whip and Nightmare -- are you running both / do you have any insights on this?

For GBW versions I tend to run 8 (3 forest, 3 plains, 2 swamp). The extra basic is usually worth in these versions because they are typically the 2 Phyrexian Tower builds, and having an extra Plains to still enable the turn 2 Baneslayer / Thune scenarios when there's a Plains stuck in your hand proved to be worth the trouble when I was running Rector.

For other versions I tend to run 7, in a 3-2-2 split. Blue versions that run Counterspell would be an exception, since I would want to be able to Vet for Island + Island to hold up Counterspell. That being said, I think that Negate has kind of trumped out Counterspell in most BUG lists anyway, so that's probably irrelevant.

Emrakul + hasty beast could be an end-gaming shot.

Anyway, I'll put these considerations aside. If someone wants to give this idea a shot, I'll enjoy reading results about it.

Back to regular Nic Fit.

So, I'm currently testing (aside my Nic Fit Planeswalker build) some new tweaks to my scape list:

Here you go:

1 Karakas
2 Bayou
2 Mountain
2 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
3 Badlands
3 Forest
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Taiga
1 Eternal Witness
1 Primeval Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Shattergang Brothers
1 Wood Elves
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Thragtusk
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Scapeshift
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
4 Burning Wish
4 Green Sun's Zenith

SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 Massacre
SB: 1 Slaughter Games
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 4 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Scapeshift
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 Innocent Blood

As already posted, S&T is back in da YARD (Sneak, omni)... What should I do. And don't tell me to drop Nic Fit...
Cards in bold are my recent changes (still testing).

1) Shattergang is maybe too cute and far too slow. But I kinda love the fact that it can answer both Omni/Sneak as you can kill Emmy, Sneak & Omni recurring a pernicious in game 1 (and obvisouly a carpet in game 2). It can also profit the second sensei you let on top of your library !!!

2) Karakas. As a 1-of, it is not what I would call "OUTSTANDING" but as long as I don't lose games because of it (and yet to happen), If only I could take at least a game 1 against S&T with it (or reanimator), I will be happy.

3) Slaughter has been removed from MD. In TS ! SG is a game ending spell against some combo MU but it has been so DEAD vs a lot of fair decks and against combo, IT HAS TO COME ON TIME (which barely happened). Multiple times I wish I had a cheaper disruption in hand...
But, I consider adding a 1-of, Liliana over the third TS MD (or might be 2).
Amusingly, this has freed up a slot in SB -> 4th REB but this could become some kind of grave.hate

Any ideas will, as usual, be more than welcomed.

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

I can see the Whip being solid. I'm not sure which is better between Whip and Nightmare -- are you running both / do you have any insights on this?

For GBW versions I tend to run 8 (3 forest, 3 plains, 2 swamp). The extra basic is usually worth in these versions because they are typically the 2 Phyrexian Tower builds, and having an extra Plains to still enable the turn 2 Baneslayer / Thune scenarios when there's a Plains stuck in your hand proved to be worth the trouble when I was running Rector.

For other versions I tend to run 7, in a 3-2-2 split. Blue versions that run Counterspell would be an exception, since I would want to be able to Vet for Island + Island to hold up Counterspell. That being said, I think that Negate has kind of trumped out Counterspell in most BUG lists anyway, so that's probably irrelevant.

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I have not tested them together, they are both better in different situations, Whip is great when you have no creatures in play and a pod active. As I said the lifelink is huge vs other midrange decks and tempo I raced 3 flipped delvers with a Whip

I'll move up to 8 then with so many lategame sinks I felt I wanted the extra land, I may do Swamp over Plains because of Titan and Whip, although I can see Grave Titan becoming Thune

Regarding Tooth and Nail, you could run like a BUG version with like Plasm Capture ( http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardd...product=446814 ) to help ramp up to 9 mana. I thought about making a deck like that in modern. Seems hilarious if nothing else.

What about a BUG pod deck that played like Painters Servant and Trinket mage to search for Grindstone?

The advantage of having creatures with the tooth and nail kill seems like more of a disadvantage to me. For most of the creature combos, the creatures you have to play are either not very good on their own (painter's servant, spike feeder) or uncastable (emrakul, Iona if you aren't playing white). Valakut you can at least play as a land and get mana. Also re: discard. While it's true you can't make them discard their wastelands, if you are playing creatures for tooth and nail, they can make you discard them, seriously compromising your combo. Finally the 9 mana vs. 7 lands difference seems pretty huge to me, though I haven't played the shift version so maybe it's not a big of a deal as it looks.
Maybe we should be looking for a way to deal with wasteland if that's a big problem. Either our own wastelands or a way to reshuffle in valakuts if they get wastelanded.

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Originally Posted by GtF

The advantage of having creatures with the tooth and nail kill seems like more of a disadvantage to me. For most of the creature combos, the creatures you have to play are either not very good on their own (painter's servant, spike feeder) or uncastable (emrakul, Iona if you aren't playing white). Valakut you can at least play as a land and get mana. Also re: discard. While it's true you can't make them discard their wastelands, if you are playing creatures for tooth and nail, they can make you discard them, seriously compromising your combo. Finally the 9 mana vs. 7 lands difference seems pretty huge to me, though I haven't played the shift version so maybe it's not a big of a deal as it looks.
Maybe we should be looking for a way to deal with wasteland if that's a big problem. Either our own wastelands or a way to reshuffle in valakuts if they get wastelanded.

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Loam? Helps to hit land drops. Sucks that you may end up milling your good spells though. I mean you can always EWtiness back a Valakut.

Also if you are running Tooth and Nail, you could always run Emrakul so even if they discard it it just shuffles back in

Way to pick cards back in? Sweet I get to bring up the other card I going to be testing in Pod:

Bow Of Nylea

I tanked on it but it seems.like recurring pod creatures is enough value to run it, but if you meed more it kills delver, gains life, and pumps our creatures. Add to that the fact that it allows all your creatures to attack into an opponents board

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Originally Posted by Fizzeler

Way to pick cards back in? Sweet I get to bring up the other card I going to be testing in Pod:

Bow Of Nylea

I tanked on it but it seems.like recurring pod creatures is enough value to run it, but if you meed more it kills delver, gains life, and pumps our creatures. Add to that the fact that it allows all your creatures to attack into an opponents board

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Well I was suggesting it more for the valakut/scapeshift version of the deck, which doesn't run pod so has a lot fewer creatures. For Pod, Recurring Nightmare just seems like a better version of Bow of Nylea to me.

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Originally Posted by GtF

Well I was suggesting it more for the valakut/scapeshift version of the deck, which doesn't run pod so has a lot fewer creatures. For Pod, Recurring Nightmare just seems like a better version of Bow of Nylea to me.

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What about Bow in Scapewish though? Admittedly I have not played Scapewish so no gauge on whether it is good in that build and something like Restore could solve the wasteland issue better than it.

It does on the surface I agree, but factoring in things like GSZ and Pod itself kinda makes me think twice

Also worth noting Nightmare does not recur non creatures and has to be recast continuously. Nothing against recurring nightmare just testing many different cards for the best fit in the list

Bow would be a somewhat hilarious protection against Jace Ultimate as well.

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

Bow would be a somewhat hilarious protection against Jace Ultimate as well.

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That's actually really funny.

Bow definitely requires testing to see where exactly the abilities are good. It looks ok to me, if not overly impressive.

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Originally Posted by pfiremc13

This will be a canonist I think. There is already a lot of combo hate in my board.

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Eugh I think teeg is too useful against like miracles and stuff to cut from the main

So my change will be -1 canonist +1 fetters.

While browsing the list of zenitable multicolored creatures I found this one:

Ghave, Guru of Spores

It might find a place in GBw-Builds.
Ghave is a bit mana-intensive but hey - we use Explorers.
Ghave offers some nice combat tricks. You can use the tokens to block and then sacrifice them back to pump Ghave. Basically you can fog four creatures each turn or use the tokens to get at an opposing walker. Ghave also works well with Spikefeeder.
On the other hand there are probably more powerful creatures like Sigarda in the 5cc-slot.
What do you think?

Question for people playing nic fit.. I played against nic fit this previous night, while playing team america, and I seemed to have the worst time vs the deck. Was told that my best bet is running stifles (i wasn't running any in the board), that really the only way to keep them slightly denied of resources? any advice is great thanks! Therapies raged me and I couldn't come close to keep up with the amount of removal.

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Originally Posted by Myelectronicdays

Question for people playing nic fit.. I played against nic fit this previous night, while playing team america, and I seemed to have the worst time vs the deck. Was told that my best bet is running stifles (i wasn't running any in the board), that really the only way to keep them slightly denied of resources? any advice is great thanks! Therapies raged me and I couldn't come close to keep up with the amount of removal.

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I think landing a tombstalker is important. Deeding for 7 is difficult. Having a deathrite tends to mess with therapy at times. (granted we can play around it if we are careful). I will say Lily is a pain to deal with, if we don't have decay.

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Originally Posted by Myelectronicdays

Question for people playing nic fit.. I played against nic fit this previous night, while playing team america, and I seemed to have the worst time vs the deck. Was told that my best bet is running stifles (i wasn't running any in the board), that really the only way to keep them slightly denied of resources? any advice is great thanks! Therapies raged me and I couldn't come close to keep up with the amount of removal.

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Yeah, your best bet is to have Stifle at the ready for Veteran Explorer and for Pernicious Deed. Nothing else is really worth stifling in the matchup from your perspective, unless it's something really devastating (like a Thragtusk trigger the turn before you kill him). Even then you can still just lose to Carpet of Flowers out of the side, but it's your best bet. Nic Fit is probably one of your worst matchups, so don't feel bad about struggling with it -- and you can also take solace in the fact that it's not a commonly played deck.

Quick question: how often do the various combo decks win turn 1 on the play? Thinking of swapping out my Force of Wills for Thoughtseizes in the side for consistency purposes, but if that Turn 1 Win % is too great, then I'll have to reconsider including FoW.