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With the new Thalia, you can tick Vial up to 3 and respond to their Fetchland activations as well. She's going to be a massive bitch to play around.
Go Go Thalia Tireless Fetchland Stax....Quote:
Time to actually add basic lands back into decks, otherwise you're playing fucking Modern, fetching EOT, and Citp tapped so you can do shit on your turn. Consider mixing new Thalia with, god forbid, Winter Orb.
That's a good point, Scott.
The fact is that this card interacts with just about all opponents in exactly the way Death and Taxes wants it to. The fact that it is also no slouch on the battlefield (especially when next to her less unruly alter ego who also has first strike) means that I can seamlessly stick this in to replace the hodgepodge of attackers that had hitherto taken up that slot.
Agreed. "Yuge, Finn, YUUUUUUUUUGGE"Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
I really dig the site. are you going to have other people write articles for it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Medea_
@c2232
Absolutely. If you look at the Splashing Colors tabs, each one of those pages was written by a specialist in that color. Iatee wrote the page for red, for example.
Here are my thoughts on the new Thalia, btw: http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?p=413
Going through a list of the top played decks on MTGO and asking: would you rather have Crusader or Thalia 2 in play?
Miracles - Thalia 2 by a decent amount I think because legend + Karakas is very strong and it makes your Wastelands better, though Crusader's still good as a must-answer threat with equipment.
Grixis Delver - Fairly even, Crusader blanks Angler and is stronger vs their post-board black cards. Thalia can punish them if they have a slow start. Both eat bolt for a big tempo loss.
Eldrazi - Actually Crusader, I think. Trades with TKS + can't be Dismembered (so essentially removal proof vs their deck) is more important than making Reality Smasher wait a turn. More and more Eldrazi variants are also showing up with Karakas.
Shardless - Crusader by far
ANT - Crusader, pretty marginal but doesn't get decayed/disfigured post-board and a faster clock
BUG Delver - Crusader by far
SnS - Thalia 2 by far but FWIW you don't need to improve your best matchup
UR Delver - Thalia 2 is a little better but they're both pretty slow and easy 1 mana removal targets
Burn - Similar to UR Delver
Infect - Fairly even, Thalia 2 might buy a turn on the play but Crusader blocks Elf / can't be chumped by Hierarch
RUG Delver - Crusader by far, blocks Goose/Goyf. They operate off very little mana and don't need creatures that ETB untapped.
DnT - Crusader by a bit, because Karakas
4c Loam - Pretty even? Thalia's really annoying for their manabase but Crusader blanks their creaturebase and more of their removal
Deathblade - Probably Thalia 2.0 depending on their manabase, but Crusader is still good
Merfolk - Crusader. Double strike + equipment make this match pretty unfair, worth more than blanking Vial blockers.
Elves - Thalia 2 buys you time, though Crusader is easily your best Jitte target
Lands - Thalia 2, but I don't actually think the card is much of a game-changer as 3 mana x/2.
Reanimator - Crusader by far, swings past Griselbrand, doesn't get decayed/disfigured.
Now that's not some landslide for Crusader, but it still comes out ahead. It's easy to forget that even though Crusader doesn't have an explicit taxing effect, it's not exactly a fair card for its casting cost...
@Iatee
Agreed on your point with Crusader. I don't think that this card should come at the cost of removing Mirran Crusader from the deck completely. I think for the folks playing mono-white, it's pretty reasonable to cut one Crusader and one Avenger for two of the new Thalia. I'm not sure how (or if?) this slots into your build, as it isn't tutorable.
I know it's already been talked about for 2 pages, but this Thalia is fantastic. The only question I have is how many we play. I imagine I'll start with 2, but part of me wants 3. Obviously don't want too many legends but damn this card is super sweet. Gonna preorder 4 even though I'll likely never play that many. Super hyped about this Thalia
Most mono-white lists have 1-3 flex slots maindeck. I know that I'm currently on 2 Spirit of the Labyrinth for my flex slots, but those have also been Aven Mindcensor, more Mirran Crusader, Brimaz, etc. I could see new Thalia slotting in those flex slots quite nicely.
I mean it's not impossible to find 2 slots in Imperial if the card ends up being strong enough - Flickerwisp is good enough so it's impossible to cut even though the card doesn't fit like a glove - but the opportunity cost is higher in Imperial when you're giving up tutor slots. It would have to prove to be uncuttable-auto-include-good in Mono-W and not Crusader/Brimaz/Wingmare/Eldrazi Displacer level 'decent flex option' for Imperial to play it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Medea_
My suspicion is that it's much closer in power level to those cards than it is to Thalia/Mom, it will see play and games will be won with it, but it won't end up being an auto-include. All of those cards have the potential to completely take over games too (Crusader vs Abrupt Decay decks, Brimax vs Bolt decks, Wingmare vs spell-heavy decks, Displacer vs grindy creature decks), but in many cases they're just a big creature that doesn't meaningfully affect the game state other than by being a big creature. I put this in the same category.
One note about Thalia2 vs Elves that I hadn't seen posted yet. Chaining Cradle activations to build mana for GSZ/hardcast Hoof happens all the damn time, and preventing an Elves opponent from ever having two Cradles of mana in a single turn is delightful. The fact that the Hoof itself loses Haste is gravy: the first goal is to keep them from getting it on the field at all.
That is interesting, and the fact that it gives us a window to tag a cradle before even the first use is pretty relevant. Even one cradle activation can kill us if the elves player knows what they're doing.
Whoops, Ranger and Symbiote exist, both of which can untap the Hoof. It doesn't REALLY lose Haste.Quote:
Originally Posted by kirbysdl
Hello,
What about Death&Taxes Arbiter version with Thalia 2.0 ? It improves the deck no ?
Sure it does...but the question remains if playing Arbiter over Stoneforge is worth it. I think it isn't, especially now with with eldrazi on the rise. New Thalia is hot tho, I'm looking forward to jamming 2-3 in the main and harass people even more :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dihensoeur
Hey Dihensoeur,Quote:
Originally Posted by Dihensoeur
I have actually been brewing a bit since the card got spoiled. While I think she would be a great 2-3 of in normal/imperial DnT, I thought about revisiting the Leonin Arbiter versions. I have played the decks in the past, and while I liked the premise, they just felt like they were missing something. I think Thalia, Cathar Heretic may be the thing it was missing.
Here is the list I am currently testing:
Creatures: 29
4 Mom
4 Thalia, GoT
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Serra Avenger
4 Thalia, CH
4 Vryn Wingmare
3 Flickerwisp
Spells: 8
4 Vial
4 STP
Lands:
4 Port
4 Wasteland
4 Ghost Quarter
8 Plains
3 Karakas
Deck seems really sweet, but I'm not sure it's better than just going with something like this mix:
Creatures: 26
4 Mom
4 Thalia, GoT
4 SFM
4 Revoker
3 Crusader
4 Wisp
3 Thalia, CH
Spells:11
4 Vial
4 STP
3 Equipment (Jitte, SoFI, Skull)
Lands: 23
4 Waste
4 Port
3 Karakas
2 Cavern
1 Mishra's Factory
9 Plains
While the Latter version is closer to stock and thus likely better, I feel the Arbiter version may be worth testing again. Thanks for any feedback!
While everyone's excited about New Thalia, I was browsing huge lists of potential tutor targets for Imperial recently, and stumbled over something that might be worth considering: Mirror Entity. CMC=3 is ideal for Vial, and you can always cast that bugger uncounterable off of a Cavern of Souls. With mana open, it can allow for profitably attacking even with a disorganized band of little dudes (like Imperial Recruiter and Stoneforge Mystic after they've done their jobs), both if your opponent has otherwise prohibitively impressive blockers on their defensive, and if you're going to connect unimpeded. It also nullifies non-permanent-based -1/-1 effects as long as you have two mana open, can help against all forms of damage-based removal, and further increases the threat our fliers present on the battlefield. I haven't tested it yet, but I really like it on paper - what do you think?
I've played Arbiter and Mystic in my mono white D&T since Arbiter was printed, they're both good, even when together because by that point you'll probably have a Vial on 2, and even if not, you may very well be able to play and search.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mastikor
The thing about the new Thalia is that the effect is very powerful, but I think that it comes down too slow most of the time for it to really matter without a deck being built around it. I don't know if it reasonably fits in a pre-existing deck, but I could very well be wrong, wouldn't be the first time, and I really hope I am wrong.
I think that I'll do some brewing with it and few other interesting cards, not yet sure though...
I've actually thought about it before, even have one in my binder. The question is 'What problem does it solve / What matchups does it make better?' It feels like there's not some way to guarantee a board-state with lots of creatures + lots of mana. The dream scenario is having a Vial on 3, attacking w/ 3 1/1s and suddenly getting in for 15 damage out of nowhere. But unlike Elves, we don't have any guarantee to have lots of small creatures and lots of mana in play, it just happens sometimes.Quote:
Originally Posted by colo
Taurean Mauler also seems borderline playable as a tutorable beater that can be Caverned.
I guess only testing can show if Mirror Entity is win-more or an actual problem solver. As a one-of tutor target, I think it's pretty harmless to try out, and I plan on doing so soon. It could also make for some fun mind games with opponents that know you're playing it, as a Vial on three with a few mana open now leaves them in a very delicate situatuation even during YOUR combat phase - could you be hiding an Entity in there and wreck either their life totals, or their blockers, while just casually swinging by with 1/1s?
Thinking about it, it also makes Batterskull's Germ token a more respectable threat (although I don't run BS in my 75 at the moment). Same goes for everything with Double Strike and/or +1/+1 counters (Epochrasite).
I don't see it happening in mono-W, since I don't think it does enough to warrant being played in multiples - but a one-of could do just enough to be worth it.
Sure, everything's worth testing. If the board is Vial on 3 + 4 mana and you topdeck a Recruiter, cast Recruiter for Recruiter, Vial other in for this guy then you can be attacking with two 4/4s next turn and 3 4/4s the turn after (3 5/5s if you draw a land.) I think that's the real potential, the fact that this naturally combos with Squadron Hawk'ed Recruiters. Opponent doesn't actually know what exactly you're doing until your next turn either. I think it would work best against DnT or Maverick style matchups, where you're pretty likely to have a boardstall unless someone wins immediately.
Vs Miracles it seems a bit meh because you don't want to overextend either in creature or in mana expenditure, though with Vial it might be able to surprise lava axe them once in a while. Vs grindy black decks you have the x/1 risk, but it's maybe less risky than other x/1s since it gives you the ability to buff in response to Zealous/Golgari, so it's only consistently bad against Dread.
PS People (playing all D+T variants) should really get on with playtesting the new Thalia. I am curious.
Stupid question from someone (me) who never played the deck but is considering building it.
Is Karakas still that needed in the deck ? I mean, I now see typical decklists with only one eligible target : Thalia, which is indeed a 4-of, but it's not like there's that many smart interactions possible with it, is there ? There's the "damaging your blocker in combat through first strike and activating jitte and sword, then returning Thalia to my hand before your blocker deals damage", but it looks like that's it. Am I missing something ?
I'm not specifically on a budget, but this is still an expensive card, and if it's reasonable to cut it, I wouldn't say no to save 200€.
Karakas is, in my opinion, a necessary part of the manabase. Just look at the Imperial lists, you still want 3 Karakas even though you're down to 1 Plateau and 3 Plains. Karakas just destroys otherwise unfair matchups like Sneak&Show, Reanimator and to some extent Lands (bye bye marit lage). In addition to that it bounces your Thalia in case someone wants to kill it, and with vial on 2 you're able to deploy her again before the bolt/plow/whatever resolves.Quote:
Originally Posted by ParkerLewis
It might suck to buy them, but once you've learned the tricks there's no way you're dropping them from the deck. 3 Is the magic number and has been since the legend rule was changed.
What this is really saying is that 3x Karakas is better than none, and there's probably not much to say on that point (thanks for pointing out the S&S / Reanimator matchups though). Not running it is suboptimal, but it doesn't look like the deck suddenly ceases to function or plays poorly without it - I mean it's not like if something like Mangara was still in the list.Quote:
Originally Posted by Klirre
The deck isn't unplayable without Karakas, but your overall win % will go down. There's nothing special about playing three, one Karakas is better than none, if you can get it, and two is better than one. The downside of playing Karakas is very low (involves playing a non-basic, occasionally you get multiples) and the upside is...you just win the game because you have a land with infinite unsummons attached. It looks innocuous, but it is an extremely broken card when it's good and we have the luxury of squeezing in multiples, which is important when you have no card draw or filtering. You can't mull to Karakas if you're only playing one.
Yeah, people get a bit carried away with how good it is. It's obviously great, and you should play as many as you can, but plains is a totally reasonable alternative if you just don't have them. In the recent GP, I think I activated Karakas once in 14 matches, and the fact that it was there was relevant in one or two other games (just because I didn't play against the matchups where it really shines). If you're building towards the deck but can't get them yet, just play 3 plains with different art from the rest of your deck so you can see the games that you could've won if you had them.Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
Oh, I could ; the question is more whether I'm willing to. Especially since Karakas prices have been slightly going down recently (probably due to the EM release), so even if I end up going for it (not obvious at this point), waiting a bit would not be such a bad idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by hill_giant
Thanks anyway.
As some already mentioned it, but it's great against Sneak and Show, Lands, Reanimator, Nic Fit, and several other random decks. It's considered best if you play 3 (in my mono white I play the full set, 3 in my Imperial version).Quote:
Originally Posted by ParkerLewis
Sometimes it's not going to do a whole heck of a lot other than make you mana, and maybe save Thalia (or abuse Mangara if you're playing it).
It also sometimes can be excellent Wasteland bait so that you can keep your Rishadan Port to continuously irritate your opponent.
I highly recommend playing 3 if you can do it without breaking the bank (or if you're crazy like me, the full set in mono white with 21 lands... It works for me though).
Hello all,
I 6-0'd a Sunday side event at GP Prague with Arbiter Taxes. Played 4 Stoneforges ^^
Bug delver 2-0 (8 stripmines and - post SB - 6 plowshares really rapes delver)
TES 2-1 (not easy of course. Sniped a fetchland with a mindcensor in one game but not sure running this build makes a huge difference)
Sneak and Show 2-1 (lost a game to Kozilek's Return)
UR Omni 2-1
Mono U Omni 2-1 (scary matchup)
Elves 2-0 (mulled to 4 game one, got Thalia, plains, vial, stoneforge. Drew revoker, karakas, mindcensor for my first three draw steps. Revoker on Heritage Druid + being on the play meant I somehow was able to win. Mindcensor foiled a natural order late in the game).
Deck feels strong. Will continue to play around with it. Am mildly excited about Thalia Dos. Might be win-more'ish in this build but oh my the feel bads on the other side of the table will be strong.
Hey everyone I have a quick question. Not asking in a rude way, just genuinely wondering, why doesn't imperial taxes have a separate thread? I feel it's significantly different enough of a deck especially when you consider how many 1-ofs the deck runs thanks to imperial recruiter and how different a lot of matchups end up being. I enjoy all conversation of DnT but I just feel it may be different enough of a deck to deserve its own thread and would love more in depth analysis to be devoted to the deck.
This is the RW death and taxes thread... the mono w death and taxes thread can be found over on the MtGSalvation forum. If you want to participate in discussions regarding RW version, post here, posts regarding Mono W are best posted on the MtGSalvation thread...
Since...when? I've read about mono white DnT here for years...
And furthermore, I've been to those boards, you are better off asking a baboon your boarding questions than try to folly with most of those magical hacks.
I dont get the MtGS hate on this forum. Ive found the members and mods of MtGS to be much more respectful, civil, and intelligent than the people on here. The threads are bustling with great content and mature members.Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
It's a more casual forum. I've found a lot of good players over on MtGS but also a lot of casual players asking questions about playing GQ over wasteland for budget concerns and asking if "thousand handed one" is good vs "the Aggro decks." It's a more casual setting which is perfectly fine, but it's why we come to the source for some more competitive discussions.Quote:
Originally Posted by LegacyIsAnEternalFormat
I certainly hope you were joking about the taxes discussions as such since that is not the appropriate attitude to have regarding the discussion (go elsewhere, this is the RW taxes forum now). I'm honestly just wondering why imperial taxes doesn't have a separate thread here and the reaction to isolate people from the source would certainly not be the approach to have. Again, if you were joking, disregard what I'm saying
Imperial is only a handful of main-deck cards away from mono-W D+T and the core strategies remains the same. Legends Miracles vs Predict Miracles probably contain a similar number of differences, and various 12-Post/Nic Fit/Maverick/Eldrazi builds can be wildly different and they manage to share a thread. I wouldn't be opposed to a thread, but I wonder what the appropriate lines for hair-splitting are. Splashes have been discussed in this thread over the years, the only difference was that they never ended up having long-term competitive success. Maybe at this point, with the last GP result, there's been enough competitive success to justify the new thread?
Sometimes I do feel bad about crowding out mono-w players, but I think mono-w build is (for the most part) a 'solved' deck that has had few major changes over the last 3-4 years so there's just a lot less to discuss until it's time to test a new hatebear or SB card. Whereas Imperial is a not-completely-solved T1 deck that has relatively few people out there solving it; there's naturally going to be more to talk about.
From my experience MtGS members are just as competitive as Source members. There might be a "casual" from time to time but primarily the discussion is from a competitive standpoint.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marungo
I dont care if I drive people away from the source, i dont owe anything to this website...
I have noticed that discussion here is mostly about RW and discussion there is mostly about Mono W as well as the fact that MtgS has better members and mods and that is why i think it is right to point mono w players over there
I think that's a pretty concise answer. I don't feel like you're crowding out mono white DnT and frankly enjoy the discussion, but I feel imperial is in a lot of ways its own identity or own deck. It's similar to the delver variants having their own threads.Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
I just feel that with imperial having recruiter, that changes so much. You have different sideboards, different one-ofs you can run, your matchups change here and there, some getting better, some worse. I don't know if it's worthy of another thread, but it seems to be a different style and deserving of a concise write up.
@LegacyisanEternalFormat
As for the idea you don't owe the site anything, totally fair. However if you don't feel your part of the community and don't mind sending people away then nobody has any reason to take your opinion for much on the topic. And if you honestly can't see the competitive differences between the source and salvation then that's on you, but you are totally entitled to your opinion. I don't feel it answers the question or progresses the idea that the deck might be worthy of its own forum by saying, "this is the forum, go somewhere else." When death and taxes has seen most of its play and success and discussion as a mono white strategy here
When I said go post in the Deck threads I did not mean start shit in them.Quote:
Originally Posted by LegacyIsAnEternalFormat
If you feel like this site is not fulfilling your needs you are most welcome to leave. But you are not welcome to act in a manner that actively drives people from the site. If you continue to do so you will be removed from the site and no longer be welcome here.
Dice.
Truth be told, the grunt work of DnT was done almost entirely at Salvation before Thomas Enevoldsen ever got hold of it. I had a hard time drumming up a conversation here because of the exclusive culture of this site for a very long time, while Salvation had a handful of fellows willing to test an unproven deck. The participation level has still not dropped off. There are some players still active on that thread who have been piloting this deck since oh, 2009 or something. The sophistication of the discussion is on par with this one, at least.
LegacyIsAnEternalFormat is understandably salty from an unrelated conversation he was recently part of, and I imagine he has no love for that same exclusive culture. Just give the guy some leeway while he gets his footing. It's one thing to know how to play the game. It is a different animal to mix it up with forum rats. We were kinda hard on him.
LIAEF, I got made fun of mercilessly in fantastic fashion. There are still some fellows around who remember it. It's no big deal.
Anyway, the red deck seems to have legs after every other splash color has been tried. Pretty impressive, really.
I don't know if I came across this way, but I didn't mean to imply salvation is a bad forum or place for discussion. I talk there all the time and have gotten some great ideas there. I just meant to say it's a place for more casual discussion. That's all. And it is. Not that there can't be competitive or good discussion as well as great ideas, just that there's gonna be more casual ideas and such than here at the source. One is not necessarily better, they're just differentQuote:
Originally Posted by Finn