Maverick, affinity and goblins : red splash for fire/ice and pyroclasm
Show and tell and réanimator : phantasmal image
Jund : submerge and jitte or white splash for rest in peace
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Maverick, affinity and goblins : red splash for fire/ice and pyroclasm
Show and tell and réanimator : phantasmal image
Jund : submerge and jitte or white splash for rest in peace
Actually, the question was about what to remove from the deck, not cards to bring in or possible splashes...
Divert seems to be a card worth considering in the current meta.
I'm planning to try it out as a 2-3 of in place of stifle, and backed up with Rishadan Port in the place of Mutavault
If anyone has tried this combination before I'd like to hear your comments on it. I'm not interested in theory so if you haven't actually tried it, then don't try to talk me out of it.
-mono
Why is it that no lists are running fetches. I know there are no brainstorm or any other library manipulation, but still the thinning effect seems useful as the games go a bit longer. I sometimes find myself drawing quite a lot of lands.
and open yourself to stifle?Quote:
Originally Posted by arj
The thinning effects of fetches are like <1% so really not worth it.
Right. But the effect is more like +1% per turn per fetch.Quote:
Originally Posted by boxman_619
You draw 1 extra spell in first 20 turns (and lose 4+ life).Quote:
Originally Posted by arj
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/print.asp?ID=3096
interesting. Thanks for clarifying.Quote:
Originally Posted by dsck
Went to GP Verona this weekend, played aristocrats but 6-3 means I had time for legacy on sunday :tongue:
There were 80+ players in legacy champs event.
My build was:
Creatures (22)
Cursecatcher x 4
Silvergil Adept x 4
Lord of Atlantis x 4
Master of the Peral Trident x 4
Coralhelm Commander x 1
Phantasmal Image x 2
Merrow Reejerey x 3
Artifacts (5)
Aether Vial x 4
Umezawa's Jitte x 1
Instants (11)
Force of Will x 4
Daze x 3
Spell Pierce x 2
Dismember x 2
Enchantments (2)
Standstill x 2
Lands (20)
Wasteland x 4
Mutavault x 4
Island x 12
Sideboard (15)
Submerge x 3
Pithing Needle x 1
Blue Elemental Blast x 2
Echoing Truth x 1
Surgical Extraction x 1
Relic of Progenitus x 2
Chill x 2 :wink:
Gut Shot x 2
Spell Pierce x 1
Main and side are in constant flux and are mostly emotional reaction to losses (eg. if I lost against rdw last tournament, there will be more anti red cards in the future :cool:).
That means you shouldn't copy this list because it has no connection to reality :laugh:
R1 vs Tin fins
Good thing I watch legacy evolve or I wouldn't know what is going on. He didn't have very good draws and I had enough counters and creatures to win.
Game two I drew singleton Needle and locked out Griselbrand. He did reanimate him two times but that only killed my two creatures and gained him 14 life.
Without card advantage he couldn't combo off. 1:0
R2 vs Past in Flames storm tendrils
I had early pressure so he had to go off early. He bricked both times. 2:0
R3 vs Uw(r) miracles
The usual build, with Rebs in side. I mull into oblivion and get crushed with angels. Game two and three he played around Daze when I had Pierce and vice versa, and his 2 Terminus got Forced. 3:0
R4 vs Nic fit
Don't know about you but this is nightmare matchup for me. Managed to kill Thrun with Image but then came Abrupt Decay, Deed, Garruk, Primal Hunter, Thragtusk and black Titan.
Game two he had Carpet of Flowers (at least it wasn't Choke). I tried to not give him mana with Mutavault and Vial but his mana was flowing anyway so big creatures that can't be submerged (not optimally at least) and lack of Islands on his side of table killed me. 3:1
R5 vs Jund Punishing Fire
Another nightmare matchup but you don't need me to tell you that. To win this I would have to have Dismembers for Goyfs and Confidants, Pierces for Liliana, him not draw any P. Fires and Decays and I would have to draw jitte to try and trade my one surviving creature with big goyf. Fortunately that's exactly what happened :laugh: 4:1
R6 vs Mono red Sneak Attack-Pyromancy-Emrakul-Griselbrand.dec
I had no idea what this was. He had all fast mana like many lands that produce 2 mana and red rituals. Fortunately, my grotesque sideboard is looking forward to this matchup.
Had counters for everything he tried. I even saw Pyroclasms but that does nothing against merfolk. 5:1
R7 Draw
I was eighth seed and had to play vs undefeated junk player.
Game 1 was Adept into Image into Image into Adept into Lord into Lord...
Game 2 he ripped apart my hand with 2 hymns and had enough creatures like Kotrs, mono blue faerie and Ooze.
Game 3 was awesome. He had two Knights, Deathrite and lands. I had Reejery, Master and lands.
He went Wastelanding my two Mutas, I returned his 2 Knigths with Echoing Truth. I have one Island left as lands.
He replayed a Knight, I Submerged it.
He replayed a Knight, I drew Cursecatcher :cool: and won for exactly enough, no cards in hand.
Such a relief!
Nic fit player also managed to top4 so it was easy decision for me to say yes on four way split :smile:
Each got 140 euros "check" to go "shopping" at dealer tables.
"Purchased" 3 duals, Shardless Agents and some trash.
So much fun :laugh:
I recently put together this deck, and took it to my LGS for a Saturday afternoon tourney. Ended up going 4-0 due to incredibly good luck in matchups. I didn't take notes since it's a pretty casual environment, but I played against 4cc Delver, some weird UB Tendrils, BUG Delver, and UW Stoneblade.
Creatures:
4x Cursecatcher
4x Silvergill Adept
4x Master of the Pearl Trident
4x Lord of Atlantis
3x Coralhelm Commander
2x Merrow Reejery
2x Phantasmal Image
Spells
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
3x Dismember
Artifacts/Enchantments:
4x Aether Vial
2x Standstill
Lands:
4x Wasteland
4x Mutavault
12x Island
I have not yet solidified a sideboard, and there are a few cards in the main that I'm uncertain of. Specifically, I'm considering cutting Dismember in favor of Spell Pierce or Spell Snare. Also, 3x Coralhelm seems a bit mana intensive to me, especially considering the evasion given by the merfolk lords.
Possible sideboard:
4x Surgical Extraction
4x Hurkyl's Recall
4x Relic of Progenitus
3x Dismember
Really uncertain about all of that.
The biggest challenge of this deck (I think) is figuring out what to force and when. Guess I just need more practice.
8 Graveyard Hate in sideboard??? You're losing to Dredge big time, or you're just overkilling?Quote:
Originally Posted by EradiKate
My current list is the following:
Lands [20]
12 Island
4 Wasteland
4 Mutavault
Creatures [22]
4 Master of the Pearl Trident
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
3 Coralhelm Commander
3 Phantasmal Image
Spells [18]
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 AEther Vial
3 Spell Pierce
3 Standstill
Sideboard [15]
4 Submerge
4 Relic of Progenitus
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Echoing Truth
2 Chill
1 Misdirection
Your best weapon against Jitte is your own Jitte. Chill and Misdirection makes Pyroblast worse. And Submerge/Mind Harness are possibly the only (pseudo)removal you need. Dismember is only good if you meta is full of Goblins or other non-green aggro decks.
We've got a handful of Goblins, a lot of graveyard decks, and at least two Affinity variants. Plus, Deathrite Shaman makes me a little uncomfortable. 8 cards to deal specifically with the yard is a little much, but I'm honestly at a loss. Maybe Echoing Truth or something to replace Relic?Quote:
Originally Posted by Vandalize
I think my biggest concern is the uprising of Show and Tell decks and the recent UWR Miracles deck. I don't have a ton of experience in Legacy, but the time or two I've played against Show and Tell was abysmal. It's my belief that going up to 4 x Phantasmal Image is probably correct, and we may need to start looking at including some number of Phyrexian Metamorph as well. Is it also time to consider Sower of Temptation in the maindeck?Quote:
Originally Posted by EradiKate
The Miracles matchup isn't as miserable, in my view anyhow, but it's still not great. If you can manage to land a threat or two and protect them, you're in like flint.
EDIT: BUG seems to be on the decline, which is good for us since Abrupt Decay is the suxxorz for us. Misdirection seems like a decent answer if this is still prevalent in your meta.
I think Venser, Shaper Savant is better than Sower since it deals with Omniscience as well.
If you're going to go the Sower route, Gilded Drake is probably better since it fits in that 2 drop slot and we tend to keep Aether Vial on 2.
You're right. Those considerations didn't even come to my mind. Good call though. Both of those are viable solutions. I just wish we could get another flexible answer in a new expansion. Seems like WotC isn't planning that anytime soon, as they keep pushing this Guild stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Esper3k
Some Thoughts
- Reejerey shines with Phantasmal Image and viceversa, play one of them without the other, is like playing brainstorm without a shuffle effect
- The "land disruption way" is very succesful!!, i mean things like: "Wasteland to Scrubland, Surgical Extraction to that Marsh Flat , and Spreading Seas to the other Scrubland" you can add Stifle to the equation, but this may make the deck a little unstable
Some Questions:
My worst nightmare nowadays is Hymn to Tourach
-How effective is Misdirection?
-and Divert?
- What is the point of Hurkyl's Recall?
If batterskull or another equip is the resp, i think Stoneforge is the real threat... and a simple bounce for two mana, can't turn the game in our favor... i prefer Echoing Truth in that case...
Are Affinity, and Chalice/Trini Decks the problem?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anfylion
A well timed divert can end the player playing hymn to tourach's game.
Too much combo now for affinity.
Chalice and Trini decks may be different.
Hi,
This is my most recent version of Merfolk
Creatures 23x
4x Lord of Atlantis
4x Master of the Pearl Trident
4x Phantasmal Image
4x Merrow Reejerey
4x Silvergill Adept
3x Coralhelm Commander
Spells 14x
4x Force of Will
3x Daze
3x Gut Shot
4x Stifle
Other 4x
4x Aether Vial
Lands 19x
11x Island
4x Mutavault
4x Wasteland
SB
2x Kira, Great Glass Spinner
4x Relic of Progenitus
3x Blue Elemental Blast
2x Submerge
2x Umezawa's Jitte
My justification for running Stifle is early disruption, particulary for stifling fetchlands. Furthermore it's pretty good vs SFM triggered ability searching for Batterskull / SoF which is always a big threat to Merfolk. Stifle is also good vs. Miracle, Cascade, Snapcaster, Clique which are all cards that Merfolk hate.
Since Stifle + Aether Vial is already 8 T1 plays I believe that playing Cursecatcher is too much. It gets us in an awkard spot if we for example get 1 stifle + 1 cursecatcher in out opening hand. Plus I've found that most players manage to play almost perfect against Cursecatcher since it's revealed when played. In some spots it's also questionable if sacrificing Cursecatcher is the right play because we need him to swing.
My ideal scenario is to draw Aether Vial and swarming Merfolk however if I instead draw Stifle I can go for early disruption while developing my mana base in order to swarm.
My next choice is to maindeck 3x Gut Shot instead of 2-3x Dismember. I think Gut Shot has a lot of targets in the prevalent format. For example:
Grim Lavamancer
Dark Confidant
Mother of Runes
Snapcaster Mage
Vendillion Clique
Lilliana of the Veil after -2 ability's been activated
I'm sure there's more staples with 1 toughness.
In my experience Dismember is rarely worth 4 life and one mana. Sure it's a great removal but a lot of times you end up overkilling something annoying on the board at a high cost. Vs. for example Jund I'm not sure if it's great to Dismember a Bloodbraid Elf or 60-70% of the time be able to Dismember a Tarmogoyf.
The absence of Standstill is based on my thinking that Standstill only gives you additional advantage. Sure it can definately win you games but it's very situational. Most of the time holding a standstill is either superfluous or simply a dead card when you're behind.
Force of Will and Daze are both free counters and they are a must IMO when playing Merfolk. Some decks are playing Spell Pierce but I think our matchups are already very strong vs. Combo / Control
Phantasmal Image is a great card with extreme versatility, perhaps cutting one might be better.
I think running 19x lands is OK given that my curve is a bit lower with Gut Shot and all my counterspells are free.
My SB is pretty standard I think.
I'll leave you here to shred me with your critique :)
/Bolkonsky
My reason for keeping Standstill is that Silvergill alone isn't a good enough draw engine. Those extra 3 cards are often the difference between letting a bomb drop and Forcing it.
I recently took out my Dismembers and added in Waterfront Bouncer as targeted removal. It costs more, but is a little more reliable than Gut Shot and is hilariously silly versus Twelvepost.
Does Merfolk have issues with Supreme Verdict and Terminus? The former ignores 90% of Merfolk disruption and the later is cheap enough to just be casted through our disruption.
I haven't played against a Merfolk deck in forever since SFM and BS entered the Legacy scene.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
All of the above are problems for the deck.
The key is not to over extend against a deck running mass removal like Terminus/ Verdict, and Pithing Needle can go a long way toward stopping Divining Top from enabling a Miracle'd Terminus.
At least, that's the best I've come up with yet.
Didn't know Merfolk made the top 16 at the last Legacy Open:
14th place - Seth Aesoph - SCG Open Kansas - Mar-24th-2013:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=54236
Creatures (22)
4 Cursecatcher
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Master of the Pearl Trident
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Silvergill Adept
2 Vendilion Clique
Lands (20)
13 Island
2 Mutavault
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
Spells (18)
4 Aether Vial
3 Standstill
4 Daze
2 Dismember
4 Force of Will
1 Stifle
Sideboard (15)
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Dodecapod
2 Chill
1 Echoing Truth
4 Submerge
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Slight variation with the Karakas, 2 Vendilion Clique, & only 2 Mutavaults, as well as the 1 of Stifle.
Also Dodecapod in the sideboard, I haven't seen that in a sideboard in, either a long long time or, not at all.
i went to a small local tournament,
The land disruption tech that i'm testing in the SB give me good results although the matches I played, it was not the most favorable to this strategy
2-1 The Rock
g1: he mulls to 4, i waste his only bayou
g2: i was destroyed by a combination of land disruption and removal
g3: win through a reejerey tapping KOTR
2-1: White weenie (monowhite, so no weakness to land disrupt ¬¬)
g1: Batterskull stop my aggro, and put me down
g2: a mass of lords, and spreading seas to ignore his batterskull
g3: idem 2 with development differences
0-2: a freaking Monoblack ¬¬ (again, no weakness to land disrupt)
g1: spot removal, mass removal, a little discard and Vampire Nighthawk
g2: idem g1 with development differences
Merfolks
Creatures: 23
2 Coralhelm Commander
2 Phantasmal Image
3 Merrow Reejerey
4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Master of the Pearl Trident
Enchantments: 3
3 Standstill
Artifacts: 5
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Aether Vial
Instants: 9
2 Dismember
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
Lands: 20
3 Wasteland
4 Mutavault
13 Island
Sideboard:
1 Chill
1 Skaab Ruinator
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Spell Pierce
2 Submerge
3 Spreading Seas
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Tormod's Crypt
The Mvp Sideboard card was Spreading Seas, i put it in all games with good results
The land disruption tech i mentioned is:
Wasteland+Spreading Seas+Surgical Extraction
In next tournaments, i will try to add Stifle...
Merfolk won a trials in Strasbourg and another just entered top8.
There are two Death and taxes so hopefully he will avoid them, till the finals of course :tongue:.
Looks like I will have to update the OP quite a bit. Besides taking a serious look at the Strasbourg deck, any opinions on changes that are overdue? From being an overbearing hawk in the beginning, I have not really followed Merfolk closely for quite awhile. I don't even have it sleeved up right now.
Hi!!, I need some tips to sideboard against:
-The Rock
-Deadguy
-Zoo (and others 'beat & bolt' strategies)
and finally..
-MONOBLACK, yes... a freaking deck that brings me nightmares
hi guys!
i don't play a lot of legacy, but when i do, i play merfolk. the deck is aggressive, simple to play, difficult to play against, and picks up far more free wins than free losses. these considerations compensate for the fact that you're playing, well, bears and gray ogres.
list:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=55297
main-deck:
-manabase could be 13 islands instead (21 lands total) but nah, 20 is enough. splashing black does make gsz matchups more winnable but surely loses equity against most metas (perish isn't all that much better than submerge). cavern is totally unplayable. you want to get to UU to cast dem lords, don't you? you want to be able to daze, yes? you want to cast that image, yes?
-i have seen it suggested to cut a reej or two. this must be a joke, whether the person means it or not.
-3 standstill 4 daze 4 fow seems non-negotiable to me, the only flex slots imo are images 2 and 3. in the absence of compelling alternatives, i like them. images are incredibly powerful and flexible. getting image-flooded or image + silvergill is awkward, though, so i think maybe 2 plus another dude (coralhelm, cosi's trickster, kira, clique) would be ok. you gotta keep the dude count up. you lose a lot more games due to not having enough guys than due to not having enough disruption.
-possible replacements: extra spell pierce or two is overkill on favorable matchups. coralhelm again makes gsz matchups more winnable but that's not enough for me because he is terrible. you want to win games where you CAN'T get to UU, don't you?
-i'm happy with the 60.
board:
-that divert being a divert nearly cost me $900, don't make the same mistake as me and for the love of god run a 2nd spell pierce instead.
-the rest of the board surprised me with its quality, since my sideboards are usually the worst things ever. i want to find room for a 3rd submerge and could be convinced to cut kira or llawan depending on meta.
fish is a fantastic deck for most metas imo. i hear on the east coast they play a lot of gx midrange, which is yet another reason i am happy not to live in that dump.
thoughts? derogatory comments?
I can't stand losing a game due to lack of proper mana. I have always been critical of builds with only 12 Islands. There is nothing worse when playing a tempo deck than seeing your opponent resolve spells that you know you can't deal with once they are on the battlefield. Going to three Reejereys is along the same lines. I can certainly see trimming a Reejerey for an Island. Congrats on your results.
thanks for the congrats!Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
real quick: 13 islands may be best, but flooding can be a real problem too and we do need to draw a critical mass of fish to win games. i would not cut a reej, his raw power is so so high and he's often easier to cast than the uu dudes. i think the best option for a cut is image for all the reasons above.
CML, congrats! It's allways nice when players with recognizable name have success with merfolk.
I mostly agree with your reasoning for main deck. The deck wants between 20 and 21 land, but we can't have 20.5, si I'm not comfortable playing 4 Daze with 12 Islands. Then there is allways tension between Daze which sets you back and having two U for lords or having two mana for Standstill. 3 Daze for me.
Hope you are joking about Trickster :wink:
I really like 2 Echoing Truth in board. Such an unexciting card and allways a blowout whenever I drew it.
Question for everybody: what do you think about 4 Vapor Snag and 4 Standstill in the main? We could allways save a lord targeted with Swords and Decay, have more cards if we return Adept, return Batterskull token or our creature that tangles with him, it clears the way for safer Standstill deployment, it's a reach, it returns attacking or blocking Griselbrand, we can Vial in a Reej, attack with guys then return a guy, cast it after combat and untap staff to have fat blockers, etc. Snag was one of the best standard cards and if S. Black can play with cards like Benevolent Bodyguard and Doomed Traveler, we can have our type 2 party.
Vapor snag had been very good for me, but I have been thinking about running hidden strings. It does crazy things with Vial and can untap a land and tap down a blocker, then encode on a attacker, hit and untap those lands so you can play another two drop. It also makes commander a much better card when you get to untap two more lands each turn. It even can give us uu when only have one island and non-basic in play.
Hmm, interesting. I just got my set of Strings because they are awesome in standard (2 turn Advent is cool) but never thought of other formats.
It nice to be able to tap down two blockers with one card. I think it would make a more aggressive merfolk build, but I feel like it would only run two drops so that it could a abuse hidden strings the most. For the first time I might play commander over reejerey, just to abuse strings more.Quote:
Originally Posted by FANAttIC
y'all are too kind.
quick ideas:
we could run 21 lands / 61 cards. i'm pretty sure diluting the concentration of cards by 1/61 is less important than getting the spell/land ratio more precise. one of the best things about merfolk is that it loses to itself way less often than most legacy decks, and those games where we don't have a vial and can't cast lord or master due to lacking uu are the most frequent cause of that. failing to draw enough threats is a kinda close second. (so i do think hidden strings is worth a try but i'm a skeptic. what use is untapping a vial when we don't have enough fish to pump out? does not reej kinda already do this?)
i like echoing truth, i wanted an out to depressing things like moat and blazing archon. my opponents were civil enough to not make those and i ended up not casting it. i also had dreams of bouncing some eot angels. anyone who has played tokens in modern knows what this is like.
the mirrors are kinda dumb. i think 1 llawan is reasonable. people like fish, many will be playing fish in the first few rounds. since your matchups get easier when you start winning a few rounds, why not give yourself a chance to mise?
someone pointed out that fish is a meta deck. this is true. the matchups with kotr decks in particular are depressing. it was nice to face one at the point where it mattered the least, but slogging through multiple matches of that sounds miserable. i also faced zero red spells on the day. you don't do well by getting unlucky.
meta analysis (ha): in ten rounds (plus one ID) i faced fish, uw landstill, fish, reanimator, miracles, that sweet loam deck, hawley's bant that nobody else can win with, goold's d&t, reanimator, deathrite maverick. this is a good meta and my rounds are not even all that favorable of a cross-section. (what other deck would have the best chance against these specific matchups? only jund or shardless bug seem close. our distant cousin rug seems far worse than merfolk.) anyway! in general west-coast metas are heavier on blue decks. scg invitationals are even heavier on blue. in an east-coast open where punishing jund predominates i would not play fish. we can shore up (heh) our matchups against decks like junk and maverick by playing coralhelm but playing coralhelm is implicitly admitting defeat, if not giving up on life itself! if people are showing up with those, play a different deck!
finally please remember that even if your goal in magic is to beat the blue players, one possible way to do that is to become one yourself.
edit: i vote no on snag. you do want to just kill that bob / lavamancer / stoneforge / piledriver / goyf / knight / dork / opposing lord / mom / whatever, don't you?
i also vote no on the 4th still; 3 seems like the right number, obviously the deck is built to abuse it but i think it abuses it best with 3 if that makes sense. the 4th copy will too often make the rest worse, it's great to chain but terrible to start off with multiples, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by landwalker000
I was running a really jank version of folk with a heavy mana-denial focus, running withdraw, a trash card, and people thought I was crazy. I got so many wins off that shit. Curfew wasn't too bad in goblins as well.
In a few weeks we are having seventh edition of the biggest legacy and vintage tournaments in Europe.
http://www.bazaar-of-moxen.com/
Would you play merfolk in something like that? What sideboard? There is no "meta" when 1000 people show up.
Personally, I am expecting lot of people to show up with "pimp" decks, that means a ton of bb duals.
If that is correct, than UR Delver would be my choice, with 3 Price of Progress.
I have no idea what version of fish would be good.
Other options are UWR Geist, Dark Times (ported vintage deck, with few tweaks), UG poison and Food Chain combo, but those are my fringe decks.
That is a very fine assessment. I would also calculate in combo decks or perhaps even dredge if the build can handle DRS well, since they get a lot of free wins which is desirable in a large tournament.Quote:
Originally Posted by FANAttIC
UR Delver has its problems, but at least DRS and Dredge are not among them.
Deck has early pressure with 11 1-drop creatures, counters and burn so combo is not the worst either.
Merfolk has better combo and dredge matchup, but sucks against Forests, so I don't know.
Tnx in advance to anybody with input.
I have 4x Submerge in my sideboard to deal with green aggro, but that's the best I've got. My worst experiences so far have been with BUG and discard of all flavors. If anyone can help me with those, I'd appreciate it.
There is no "meta" when 1000 people show up.
sure there is. you described it perfectly. there will be combo. there will be fair blue. fish will be great. ur delver will be good. rug will be ok.
4 submerge -- could be worth a try, i was gonna write 'fish sideboards light' but against submerge decks you're boarding out 4-8 counters and would thus not need to dilute your aggro plan. we do devote a lot of sideboard slots to these matches though and cross-match all-stars like blue blast are also pretty important. 3 submerge might be the number, 2 is probably too few