[Deck] Elves Combo

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Originally Posted by spetznaz

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Thanks for the reply.

I think I'll save up some money until I can get a Karakas and try this 2x-Crop + silver bullets tutoring.

Although, I'm not sure if it'll work well for me because I tend to see quite regularly counterspells being played around here...

But nonetheless, I like to get all options for my Elves' card pool :)

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Originally Posted by nudon

My mana base for crop rotation sb plan is similar to LSV's except -2 fetch (8), +1 horizon canopy, +1 forest.
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Don't the 2 fewer fetchlands being played hinder your DRS's value on the early game throughout the tournament?

I'm considering trimming down to 9 fetchlands in order to get another main deck Forest, so that I can feel a little "safer" over my mana base.

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Originally Posted by nudon

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As for NO-prog, I'll bring them in against any fair deck not running heavy countermagic.
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That's what I've been hearing (reading). But I've also heard that some players actually board in Progenitus against Miracle and/or Canadian Thresh.

To whom has experience on these match ups, how good is Prog. against them?

Will I ever be able to cast NO on these two match ups?

I'm not too confident on it, specially against Miracles, with the risk of my effort being Terminused away.

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Originally Posted by nudon

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Edit: Progenitus does not stop Helm/RIP combo since RIP exiles progenitus as an "instead".
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Although you point to the correct result of this interaction, I don't think it's clear there on the reason to that being so, because Progenitus' triggered ability is also a replacement effect (there is an "instead" written on it too).

Let's do the reasoning through the long way:

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Originally Posted by Progenitus

Legendary Creature — Hydra Avatar 10/10, WWUUBBRRGG (10)
Protection from everything

If Progenitus would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, reveal Progenitus and shuffle it into its owner's library instead.

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So, doing a little research, this is what I've found:

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Originally Posted by Comprehensive Rules, relevant excerpts

614.1a Effects that use the word "instead" are replacement effects. Most replacement effects use the word "instead" to indicate what events will be replaced with other events.

616.1. If two or more replacement and/or prevention effects are attempting to modify the way an event affects an object or player, the affected object's controller (or its owner if it has no controller) or the affected player chooses one to apply (...).

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Based on this information, we can conclude that if Progenitus would be Helm of Obedienced way, with Rest in Peace being in play, since both effects (Prog's and RIP's) are trying to replace Progenitus' entering the graveyard, since I am "the affected object's controller" (I controll Progenitus), I am the one who choose which of the replacement effects is going to apply.

I would, hence, choose Progenitus' replacement effect to apply, and then he would end up shuffled back on my deck.

But then, "an infinite loop" would be generated, with my whole deck being milled away and exiled until only Progenitus remains there, and the process continuing to repeat.

However, Koby's answer on THIS POST asserts that "Since this is an uncontrolled loop, a choice will have to be made to break that loop. The choice to exile Progenitus will be forced."

(I think the rules that support this is anywhere on "716. Taking Shortcuts". But I won't be able to find their exact location because my wife achieved maximum loyality counters and is using them to 'ultimate me' to help her with dinner. I must end this post to resolve her ultimate ability ASAP or else... :rolleyes:)

The linked thread sums up this whole interaction, but I only found it after I had written my reasoning :frown:

Well, I hope that at least my long post have any use to someone on this thread.

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TLDR:

• Progenitus can be reshuffled back to your library until your library consists of only him.
  
• Then, to break the infinite loop, the choice to apply RIP's replacement effect over Progenitus' one will be forced, and Progenitus will be exiled too.

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Originally Posted by andrebonotto

Don't the 2 fewer fetchlands being played hinder your DRS's value on the early game throughout the tournament?

I'm considering trimming down to 9 fetchlands in order to get another main deck Forest, so that I can feel a little "safer" over my mana base.

That's what I've been hearing (reading). But I've also heard that some players actually board in Progenitus against Miracle and/or Canadian Thresh.

Although you point to the correct result of this interaction, I don't think it's clear there on the reason to that being so, because Progenitus' triggered ability is also a replacement effect (there is an "instead" written on it too).

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I haven't had issues with not being able to generate mana with DRS thanks to my 2 crop rotations (LSV had 4 cradles instead of 2-2 split). Also, horizon canopy can also pitch itself into the gy. Those 3 cards compensates nicely for having 2 fewer fetches in my experience. If I wanted to play it safer, I'd cut the 2nd basic forest first to minimize the risk of not being able to generate mana. There's been many times where crop rotating into horizon canopy to draw mid-combo or mid-game helped me win. It's also a very good topdeck.

NO-prog against miracles or RUG is very dangerous. There's nothing worse than getting a NO countered. Also, I typically don't like to board in too much against fair decks since it'll dilute the combo. Against miracles, teeg, pridemage, and 2 abrupt decays are already going in so that's already 4 spots (only board in more than 4-5 against combo). I would board even fewer cards in against RUG since that's a decent matchup already.

Thanks for the detailed prog-helm explanation.

The quest to not die horribly to Storm continues. I may have committed blasphemy, but thus far that blasphemy seems promising.
We have to be the tempo deck vs. combo. They can disrupt while retaining speed, we can't, playing discard and stuff slows us down. Aggressive tempo strategy or hatebear prison seem likely countermeasures. Glimpse is antithetical to tempo strat because it needs cards in hand to function, and may just eat Silence+lolstupidelf. This way I can commit as much as I can to the board without hindrance and have many pieces of disruption. Siding in Ooze/Pridemage could even be a thing to break up LEDs/gain life vs. starved board states and just beat down. Feed dude to Therapy, feed dude to Ooze.

Sideboard (Teeg/Viridian Shaman main, no Titania)
1 Progenitus
1 Natural Order
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Scavenging Ooze

Storm:
-4 Glimpse of Nature
-1 Regal Force
-1 Viridian Shaman

+4 Therapy
+2 Thoughtseize

Check out the new toy!!! :smile:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...d=1#post712394

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Originally Posted by catmint

Big dude is cool for legacy. Gives elves a reasonable Storm hate. Elves can cast Natural Order turn 2 and GSZ for x=6 turn 3 without glimpse comboing. Both much better targets than Behemoth, Progenitus and Regal Force. Storm can only beat it if they are able to bounce it within less than 1-2 spells and then go off instantly. Storm has always been a trouble matchup for elves and now you have very effective hate without dilluting the decks engine, but hate that fits into the decks engine. Also Storm has to Duress away Glimpse, Natural Order & GSZ to make sure tha “6 to the face duder” does not get online.

Elves is going to loooove him. Frees up freaking sideboard slots and I predict elves has game vs. storm now for the first time.

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I'd still board in discard. I mean, one problem in the Elves vs. Storm match isn't speed - we're plenty fast enough if undisrupted. Undisrupted being the key word here, disruption hurts our combo potential far more than Storm's, and we recover more slowly. Slowing Storm own is imperative.

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Originally Posted by catmint

Check out the new toy!!! :smile:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...d=1#post712394

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I don't feel this creature is good enough to maindeck, so the question becomes "is this better than Gaddock Teeg?"

As Storm hate? No. Probably slightly more effective once it hits due to not getting owned by Pyroclasm effects, but being able to easily GSZ for Teeg on turn 2 is a big deal.

As a clock? No contest, but if Elves is able to Natural Order or cast GSZ for 6, it shouldn't be too much harder to GSZ for 7. It's relatively easy to win from that point (two untapped Elves without summoning sickness plus Craterhoof already represents 16 damage, which is almost certainly lethal by turn 3 between your previous attacks and any damage the Storm deck inflicted upon itself, as it's not like that deck plays any blockers).

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Originally Posted by lordofthepit

I don't feel this creature is good enough to maindeck, so the question becomes "is this better than Gaddock Teeg?"

As Storm hate? No. Probably slightly more effective once it hits due to not getting owned by Pyroclasm effects, but being able to easily GSZ for Teeg on turn 2 is a big deal.

As a clock? No contest, but if Elves is able to Natural Order or cast GSZ for 6, it shouldn't be too much harder to GSZ for 7. It's relatively easy to win from that point (two untapped Elves without summoning sickness plus Craterhoof already represents 16 damage, which is almost certainly lethal by turn 3 between your previous attacks and any damage the Storm deck inflicted upon itself, as it's not like that deck plays any blockers).

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Disagree, he is a very potent additional storm hate. And why should he compete with gaddock teeg? He is additional hate as the prime NO target.

Ruric Thar is surely not good enough to maindeck. Vs Storm Turn 2 GSZ for x=2 or Natural Order for him are potent hate plays without diluting the maindeck with thorns or discard. Teeg beeing easier to get online but also easier to handle (decay, bounce, mass removal). Yes storm playing discard hurts elves ability to combo and elves does recover slower. That is why it is important not to dilute the deck. Also with 4 Glimpse, 4 GSZ & 4 Natural Order. All representing a problem for storm there should be enough redundancy to either glimpse, GSZ for teeg/Ruric or NO for Ruric turn 2 and 3.

Sure, if GSZ for x=7 wins the game go with behemoth (duuuh), but that is the optimum and not the regular case, right? It is also a turn 3 play. The question is: What would you rather do versus storm: Setup the turn 3 kill with NO for behemoth or cast NO turn 2 for Ruric? Also concerning 16 damage turn 3. What if it is not deadly? Would you rather pass the turn with the opponent on 1 life and no hate or have ruric on board and the opponent on 17 life?

The big advantage about Ruric is that you can just NO for it without any precondition. Just 4 mana and 1 dude.

Most of the time you are not able to natural order vs storm anyway.
Worst case scenario you lose the die roll and they get two games to go first. Then you already have to hope they stumble at least a turn acquiring the necessary combo pieces and honestly a sideboard card that requires the opponent to stumble just doesn't cut it.

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Originally Posted by Reagens

Most of the time you are not able to natural order vs storm anyway.
Worst case scenario you lose the die roll and they get two games to go first. Then you already have to hope they stumble at least a turn acquiring the necessary combo pieces and honestly a sideboard card that requires the opponent to stumble just doesn't cut it.

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I feel you overestimate storms ability to combo off turn 1 and 2, but let's differentiate a bit. Your argument basically inclines that you need turn 1 hate versus storm, which I don't think is true.

So lets differentiate the storm archetype a bit:
Belcher or TES for Emty the warrens: You usually need turn 1 hate (discard) or mindbreak trap to stop that, but you can still hope to race goblins if they combo off this way. The belcher kill does not happen regularly turn 1 and also TES has also hands where they combo off turn 2-3. So consistent permanent hate turn 2 is not worthless.

ANT is slower and usually cantrips and discards a bunch before they go off. Sure, they have some god hands but I rather have consisntent turn 2 hate (teeg or NO for Ruric) than SOMETIMES a mindbreak trap which they might just discard first or a discard piece by myself (like they cannot win against 1 discard spell). So permanent hate is not only more effective than spell based hate it also works without diluting the deck.

High Tide: They have to stop us before their turn 4.

So the statement "I don't get to cast Natural Order" is just dull and plain wrong.

I played against Prosak's ANT list yesterday in Rd1 of an LA tourney (combo meta). He flooded game 1 as I just beat him down with elves (won die roll and went first). Game 2 I hit LED with therapy and flashed it back to hit 2 cabal rituals. Next turn, I gsz'ed for teeg and virtually closed out the game. That said, I think the 4 cabal therapies (and 2 mindbreak traps) are great and wouldn't weaken our manabase for the red card.

On a side note, the crop rotation package with karakas and bog is insane. I won Rd4 against reanimator (to go 3-1) due to a timely crop rotation into bog (after cabal therapy to fish out countermagic). Landing a scavenging ooze and holding a karakas in hand, I felt good and eventually combo'ed with glimpse. He echoing truthed my ooze at one point and landed a sphinx of the steel wind but that wasn't enough for craterhoof trample damage. My current sb worked extremely well:

4 therapy
2 abrupt decay
1 teeg
1 pridemage
1 progenitus
1 natural order
1 ooze
1 bog
1 karakas
2 traps

Standard board. But HOW do you board. That is the far more interesting question. Different cuts can result in a dramatically different deck.

If you board in a ton of hate our own combo gets weaker so typical cards to board out are the best combo enablers like Summoners Pact (if you run) and the grindier "setup cards" like Wirewood Symbiote and Elvish Visionary. It might be even correct to board out some Glimpse of Nature.

I would keep all the one drops in to generate mana asap. The cards which can generate mana are heritage druid, quirion ranger, cradle & crop rotation for cradle. Crop rotation can also grab bojuka bog as hate.

Still to me it is mostly important to play a Teeg turn 2 which is possible around 50% of the time. Natural Order turn 2 is rather rare (~5%) but if you have it you can cast it something like 80% turn 3 to bring out Ruric Thar. So GSZ & NO representing very potent permanent hate for turn 2 and 3, but it is probably still right to board in ~6 slots for discard, mindbreak trap or more permanent hate like thorn or thalia to make sure that the hate is not discarded and/or that we live to deploy the permanent hate.

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Originally Posted by Zombie

Standard board. But HOW do you board. That is the far more interesting question. Different cuts can result in a dramatically different deck.

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I agree. Here's a summary below.

Rd1 - ANT: (I played belcher Rd2 and boarded the same way)
Cuts: -1 Regal Force, -3 Elvish Visionary, -1 Quirion Ranger, -1 Heritage Druid, -1 Crop Rotation
Adds: +4 Cabal Therapy, +1 Gaddock Teeg, +2 Mindbreak Trap

Rd3 - Deadguy Ale:
Cuts: -1 Quirion Ranger, -1 Heritage Druid, -1 Priest of Titania, -1 Crop Rotation
Adds: +1 Qasali Pridemage, +1 Scavenging Ooze, +1 Natural Order, +1 Progenitus

Rd4 - Reanimator:
Game 2:
Cuts: -1 Regal Force, -2 Elvish Visionary, -1 Quirion Ranger, -1 Heritage Druid, -1 Forest, -1 Horizon Canopy
Adds: +4 Cabal Therapy, +1 Scavenging Ooze, +1 Karakas, +1 Bojuka Bog
Game 3:
Cuts: -1 Natural Order
Adds: +1 Elvish Visionary

I would never ever board out lands, except for maybe Gaea's Cradle? Bojuka Bog and Karakas won't really help you cast your spells, you need the green...don't see how you could ever board out forest/canopy/dual.
Also, Visionary is nice to have against ANT(Combo). It helps you find hate, too. Board out something else against Combo. Also depends on the list. I could see boarding out 1-2 if you're desperate

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Originally Posted by Alexeezay

I would never ever board out lands, except for maybe Gaea's Cradle? Bojuka Bog and Karakas won't really help you cast your spells, you need the green...don't see how you could ever board out forest/canopy/dual.
Also, Visionary is nice to have against ANT(Combo). It helps you find hate, too. Board out something else against Combo. Also depends on the list. I could see boarding out 1-2 if you're desperate

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The deck already runs 17 lands and 2 crop rotations so I think it's fine. In my experience, boarding out non-lands for bog and karakas can get me flooded. Bog can also be used to cast deathrite shaman and use his second ability. If needed, karakas can be used to cast ooze, visionary, priest, gsz, and NO. I didn't have problems with mana both sb games.

Visionary is too slow against faster combo decks. Between therapy, trap, and teeg (7 cards), we should have a solid chance of drawing hate in our opening hand so I think it's more important to be fast. I left 1 visionary in to be searched if card draw is needed.

Sounds solid nudon. Agree on Visionary. To leave him in as a "search for hate" is not correct. Cast him Turn 2 mean basically "setup turn 3" and we know that turn 2 Teeg or Discard is more important.

And you would not be inclined to add -1 Regal Force +1 Ruric vs. Storm?

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Originally Posted by catmint

Sounds solid nudon. Agree on Visionary. To leave him in as a "search for hate" is not correct. Cast him Turn 2 mean basically "setup turn 3" and we know that turn 2 Teeg or Discard is more important.

And you would not be inclined to add -1 Regal Force +1 Ruric vs. Storm?

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I already cut regal force in all combo matches (see above post) so I'd have to find another card to cut. I think Ruric is good only in the scenario where you can NO into him (doubt gsz for 6 is likely when we're flashing therapy back). Even then, teeg isn't too much worse as a NO target if you can't swing for lethal. The major drawback of Ruric is that he's a dead card in hand. Also, the sb is pretty compact as I used every single card at some point (later used abrupt decay against miracles in tourney).

What matches do you bring in the second Arbor?

I disagree with cutting one-mana Elves vs. Storm - they help you get the mana for T2 GSZ or occasionally NO=>Teeg/Ruric. Would rather cut down on Symbiotes.

If you're cutting Crop Rotation while keeping Titania in, I'd do the opposite.

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Originally Posted by Zombie

What matches do you bring in the second Arbor?

I disagree with cutting one-mana Elves vs. Storm - they help you get the mana for T2 GSZ or occasionally NO=>Teeg/Ruric. Would rather cut down on Symbiotes.

If you're cutting Crop Rotation while keeping Titania in, I'd do the opposite.

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Unlike your list, I keep teeg in the sb and priest in the main so I don't have the second arbor. I don't think it's necessary since I'd bring it in against decks we should be able to beat anyways (along with NO and prog). Main deck teeg is something I might try in the future though with the amount of combo in my meta. Even then, I'd probably add the third abrupt decay before arbor.

I thought about your comment regarding cutting 1 heritage druid and 1 quirion ranger and I agree. However, I'd rather cut 1 forest and 1 NO (not very good with teeg) before shaving symbiotes. They are very good with cradles and allow you to swing for lethal with untaps.

Now that you mention it, I agree with the titania cut.

To those of you who have switched to the Craterhoof list, how often do you search up Regal Force instead of Craterhoof when you have the option of grabbing either?

Sometimes I draw my Craterhoof and have a Natural Order in hand (but not enough to hardcast Craterhoof) and end up settling for Regal Force instead to draw more gas. I think I rarely want to search up Regal Force over the 'Hoof for the following reasons:

1) 2-3 Elves + 'Hoof = lethal damage: a 5/5 Ancestral Recall is nice, but a dead opponent is better
2) If you don't have enough Elves to deal lethal, drawing the extra cards with Regal Force might be stronger (since Regal Force's "impact" scales linearly with the number of creatures you have, but Craterhoof's scales quadratically). However, you usually need a few Elves in play anyway to be able to cheat either fatty in, which would represent over 20 damage. I can see Regal Force being more useful if your opponent somehow gained a ton of life in the course of the game, allowing you to set up a super large Craterhoof Behemoth with like 20 Elves in play, but that seems like a narrow situation.
3) Drawing a few cards can also be useful in a situation where you're unable to attack due to some lock pieces, allowing you to perhaps more aggressively draw fuel to feed your Deathrite Shamans or your postboard answers.
4) The extra mana cost to hardcast either card (or to fetch them out with GSZ) can occasionally be relevant, although that's not often the case.

I'm currently inclined to replace the Regal Force with a second 'Hoof.