[Deck] The Rock

Mr. Safety, I pondered a lot before replying anything about your list, because it was full of good ideas. I once played against a The Rock player that also had tons of good ideas. But there is a limit ofwhat a deck can do. I found out (and you may not even realize you are doing it) that you are trying to use the sinergies from stax, aggro loam, etc, all into a single deck. The Rock is a deck archetype that works by quick (and efficient) hand disruption followed by a threat and removals for any kind of permanent the opponent puts in the board. If you want to base your deck in life from the loam, even the land count should be different.

Also, guys, what do you think about this:

4 thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach
4 innocend blood
4 smallpox
3 maelstrom pulse
3 life from the loam
1 worm harvest
3 mox diamond
3 liliana of the veil
4 bloodghast
2 pernicious deed

lands:
4 verdant catacombs
2 marsh flats
4 wasteland
4 mishra's factory
2 barren moor
1 tranquil thicket
4 bayou
1 forest
3 swamp

tested it against aggro and a few combo decks, and the disruption is enough to win against combo... nice matches against rug (won them all), but this list loses to sneak attack.
I should add eternal witness and voçrath's stronghold, as well as an urborg.

I still prefer my Dark Horizons list, this is just something I was working on...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sughayyer

Mr. Safety, I pondered a lot before replying anything about your list, because it was full of good ideas. I once played against a The Rock player that also had tons of good ideas. But there is a limit ofwhat a deck can do. I found out (and you may not even realize you are doing it) that you are trying to use the sinergies from stax, aggro loam, etc, all into a single deck. The Rock is a deck archetype that works by quick (and efficient) hand disruption followed by a threat and removals for any kind of permanent the opponent puts in the board. If you want to base your deck in life from the loam, even the land count should be different.

Also, guys, what do you think about this:

4 thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach
4 innocend blood
4 smallpox
3 maelstrom pulse
3 life from the loam
1 worm harvest
3 mox diamond
3 liliana of the veil
4 bloodghast
2 pernicious deed

lands:
4 verdant catacombs
2 marsh flats
4 wasteland
4 mishra's factory
2 barren moor
1 tranquil thicket
4 bayou
1 forest
3 swamp

tested it against aggro and a few combo decks, and the disruption is enough to win against combo... nice matches against rug (won them all), but this list loses to sneak attack.
I should add eternal witness and voçrath's stronghold, as well as an urborg.

I still prefer my Dark Horizons list, this is just something I was working on...

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That pile looks like fun, althought more LftL than Dark Horizons. Play Terravore over Bloodghast

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mirrislegend

That pile looks like fun, althought more LftL than Dark Horizons. Play Terravore over Bloodghast

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Yes, I said I prefer my traditional Dark Horizons than this list. In fact it's an "evolution" from a monoblack pox deck (hence the bloodghast) but as all my decks, it invariably became a rock-like deck.
Testing it online on cockatrice (as far as it can be called testing) I won all matches, but then again I played very little with it. Won at the local shop where I play too, but this was a few months ago... I was still tampering with my cards choosing wich deck I would play (had all cards for the rock, but was thinking about bg, nif fit, deadguy ale, etc). Like I said, it loses flat and square to sneak attack and many other decks.

If you're gonna build a LftL deck (ie: a deck that is more Loam focused than Dark Horizons is), then build a LftL deck, not an evolution of a Pox deck. LftL decks can get great utility out of Pox staples, but as a Pox evolution, you don't get the right kind of deck.

Here's how I'd go about doing a 2 color LftL deck, as yours was shaping up to be:
4 Mox Diamond
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Life from the Loam
4 Terravore
2 Worm Harvest
4 Dark Confidant
4 Smallpox
8 other cards (discard and removal. maybe Goyf)
26 land

4 Mox Diamond
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Life from the Loam
4 Dark Confidant
4 Smallpox
4 Entomb
1 Ravens Crime
1 Worm Harvest
3 Eternal Witness
3 Innocent Blood
4 Thoughtseize
26 Land

Maybe? 26 Land seems like a lot but it probably isn't, if you cut to 25 you can make a 3 of a 4 of. Entomb seems like a card we should use seeing how it is a perfect tutor with life from the loam, as it gets the loam, any creature or land or retrace creature. You get witness for late game smallpox/witness loops or even early game smallpox witness card advantage(when you have loam). I also wouldn't play terravore or bloodghast, you dont need to kill them you just have to not die.

I have been mulling over things like this for a while but always end up splashing white for swords(over innocent blood)...

hello rock players, i went 1st (4-0) in a small legacy tourney, meta are bw tokens, rug, reanimator, kithkins, uw stoneblade to name a few
here's the list

4 bob 4 kotr 4 goyf
4 seize 4 hymn 2 liliana of the veil
4 maelstrom pulse 4 STP
3 SDT 3 mox d
1 pernicious deed

2 bayou 2 scrubland
2 swamp 1 forest 1 plains
4 verdant 4 marsh flats
4 wasteland
1 karakas 1 maze of ith 1 bojuka bog

SB
2 tormod's 3 extirpate 2 diabolic edict
2 duress
2 choke
2 deed 2 e. plague

R1 vs mono white kithkins: win 2-0
R2 vs RUG: win 2-0
R3 vs RUG: win 2-1
R4 vs reanimator: win 2-1

few notes:
1) hymn is good irrespective of any decks, even at BB cost surely it hits something w/c can slows them up
2) i hate to see having 2 pulses in my hand while we have goyfs in our field, i wish i had that vindicate so i can hit that opposing goyf
3) Tidespout Tyrant and griselbrand are both pain in my ass while both of those cards are online in reanimator

thanks for your comments/ideas :)

Looks like old school junk list with mox and hymn top 8:ed in GP Ghent. Here is a link to the coverage:

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...nt12/welcome#1

Ok. it has lingering souls :) but otherwise quite oldschool.

The list:

3 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
4 Marsh Flats
1 Maze of Ith
1 Plains
4 Scrubland
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
24 lands

4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Tarmogoyf
9 creatures

4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Life from the Loam
3 Lingering Souls
3 Mox Diamond
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Thoughtseize
23 other spells

4 Liliana of the Veil
4 planeswalkers

Sideboard
2 Choke
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Extirpate
2 Ghastly Demise
2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
1 Tormod's Crypt
15 sideboard cards

List looks pretty solid: Lingering Souls serve the same purpose as Tarmogoyf but is a better card against Miracles, which is picking up steam. The 4 Lilliana seems good against the field especially with the 4 top to ensure everyone is playing off the top of their deck and the rock player does it better.

As much as it wasn't true a few months ago, these hymn lists are out performing their GSZ brethren, especially with the addition of multiple Lillianas.

nice list there--JUNK SOULS! i'm happy to see junk list top w/ a hymn in there list, i think hymn is in good position right now
I totally agree that the inclusion of lingering souls is good while miracle decks are around and also free attacker/broker.
I remember i encountered similar decks when i participate paeng's cup 4, i ask him if he has bob in his list but he said nothing, instead he has cabal therapies and IOK in place of bob, no tarmo but he has ooze, pretty list too.

It's always great to see a Junk deck doing well! I just have a few remarks (correct me if I'm being dumb)

Hymn, altough being a side-out card against many decks (eg, goblins, gw) in favor for cards that will effectively win the game, instead of just giving a great advantage, has always been a good card. I've been saying this a long time.

Goyf vs Lingering Souls: Is is really worthy to make the match a bit better against miracles and making a bit worse against the rest? I mean, I picture myself against a Sneak & Show or a TES, and I'd HATE to have LS in my hand, but I'd love to have a Goyf... remember we already have great options against Miracles... and LS can be Pierced, Goyf can't.

Maybe I'm being too biased because of my meta, I don't know. Also it's late at night... sorry if I said anything stupid. Anyway, I'm happy to see another Junk list on top!

A goyf could do some damage in those matchups if you're able to disrupt them, sure, but neither are going to help if they go off. thus early game a goyf vs souls doesn't exactly matter (turn 2 = hymn) and otherwise Souls gives you something to pitch to Liliana if you can get her discard engine going without losing too much value yourself.

I don't know how they both compare to other matchups since I don't play normal Rock but figured I'd check in and see how Rock was able to top 8 in a comblicious tournament and how it may help my own brewing :P.

Think the most important card to take away from in the junk souls list is the 4x Lilliana of the veil. With 4 tops 3 moxen 3 souls 1 life all of these cards can be pitched to Lilliana as well as top and loam ensuring you come out ahead in the deal. This deck wants a Lilliana on the field all of the time. She is that good in rock decks.

@Claymore
We are one of the few decks that doesn't need to add "discardable" cards to make liliana work. We don't need 2 tops, 2 moxen, or 3 bobs on the field (well, not mmost of the time). Plus, running 10 discard spells, they WILL, eventually, become irrelevant once we start discarding with lili. Also, whenever we discard a land, we are making our Knights fatter :):):)
On that turn 2 = Hymn, this is not always the case. Sometimes after a correct turn 1 pointed discard, you'll want to add pressure to the board, so you can cast hymn on 3, then start attacking right away (if you simply deplet all your discard spells at once, you'll just give them enough time to go off, whereas if you do a correct discard, then a fat guy, then start disrupting their hand while they are actually being attacked, they are more likely to play wrong as well. But yes, sometimes all you want to do is 1cc at turn 1 and then Hymn on turn 2, depending on their hand).

I didnt say I don't like that list, I just think that it's more defensive, and I prefer a different approach.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lavafrogg

Safety- please don't cut Lilliana for ravens crime, one is a good card and one is part of a slow "combo" that doesn't win the game or even hold the board down. As you add all of these cute cards you become more and more susceptible to hate both main board and sideboard.

You need to plan on games where you will not resolve life from the loam at all, and also games where you have your graveyard nuked multiple times/leylined/oozed with mom protection.

You also don't want to have too many expensive cards; with maverick and RUG as the best decks in the format you need to be able to play on a tight mana budget, through many wastelands.

All I am really saying is watch out for the danger of cool things, take that from someone who has played with Loam since it was printed.

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I agree...two Crimes dropped for 2 Lilis. The danger of cool things IS creeping up on me, for sure.

Sorry I haven't posted here much, many essays to finish...

-Matt

Mike, did your Moat show up?

-Matt

@ Sug:
Hymn should almost never be sided out. You mentioned Goblins and Maverick:

Hymn is an all star against Maverick. They play zero card advantage. Hymn shreds their resources, leaving them with hatebears and KotR to match our KotR, Bob, and whatever extra plan you like (Lili, GSZ, LSouls, Stoneforge, etc). I love Hymn vs Maverick. They don't apply much pressure, so you can spend an early turn Hymning them.

Hymn is good, but not quite as awesome, against Goblins. If you can stop their rampage, then Hymn them asap, to stop them from exploding again. Also, Ringleader can help them recover, thus negating some of Hymn's awesome. If anyone has played against Goblins, you know that by the time you deal with their first wave, they've drawn into a second one. Hymn diminishes the expansion of the first and slows them from creating the second.

If Hymn has ever been bad for you, you need to carefully re-examine that situation, and make SURE that it wasn't something else happening to make Hymn less good.

@Mirrislegend

Hymn is never bad. But sometimes, I'd rather have a card that gives me the game. If I have plague on the field, then infest and/or plowshares for the lord, the game is already mine. Surviving up to turn 3 isn't so hard when you are about to nullify your opponent's entire deck (remember all my hate sideboard).

Against maverick, yeah, you are right. I'll change my aproach.

Hello. Been out of the game for awhile and coming back into the scene recently trying to update and older rock deck. Couple questions for you guys and I apologize if this has been asked and asnwered already.

1. Why maelstrom over vindicate? Is it to kill off multiple tokens primarly? At face value I'd take vindicate since you can destroy a land with it as it seems to work better with our wastelands. I understand blowing up lands isn't really the purpose of the deck but hey, mana screw happens and when it does why not seal the game with a vindicate. IT would seem to be relevent more often than killing tokens. But maybe I'm missing something in the modern meta.

2. I haven't much experience playing vs dredge style decks. How much hate is necessary? I pack 1 Scavenging ooze main with 2 gsz to feth it along with 1 bojuka bog main. I am playing the e. tutor style sideboard with 2 tutor, 1 nihil spellbomb, 1 crypt. I am considering adding either a 2nd Scavenging ooze to the SB or 1 loaming shaman. Would not shaman be superior to the 2nd scavenging ooze as a hate piece vs dredge?

THanks for the help guys, this is a very helpful thread and an enjoyable read.

@Mirrislegend: nice analysis of hymn against maverick, actually my friend asked me when do you use your hymn? and for what match ups, i said i used my hymn against control decks (where they conserve that hand size), against combo (this is like our FOW), against aggressive decks doesnt have card advantage like maverick and also that match up i reported against mono white kithkins (they dont have card advantage) and as early as early turns i will throw that hymn, its okey to take those damage but the impact of that hymn persist till late game (for zero card advantage and leaving them on topdecking).
But for goblins my plan is slightly different, they play bunch of goblins to the point they have no cards in hand (hard cast and vial activation) so i think my game plan there according to my sb, -4 hymn, -2 liliana, +2 deed, +2 e plague, +2 removals (pte, infest, or zealous persecution)