[Deck] Goblins

I think I'm going to get a set of tarfire's for the sideboard, can net them with ringleader against creature aggro decks and there's enough stuff with toughness of 2 or less out there ^.^

I'm almost tempted to make even my entire sideboard all tribal goblin stuff, like tarfire, vexing shusher, but I can't actually promote doing that since there's no goblin graveyard hate, goblin anti fast combo hate, etc. As well between aether vial and cavern of souls, I am finding vexing shusher less needed in the sideboard, though it is fun to vial in a shusher, then cast a boil ! lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GoboLord

Tips:
* Vial is more important than Lackey in this MU
* don't overextend. you can usually build up some pressure with ~4 creatures. keep the rest in your hand to be able to rebuild your pressure after a Terminus
* play 4 Piledrivers
* play Sulfuric Vortex in your SB
* the REAL problem about this deck is not Terminus but Entreat the Angels. The more they run, the worse it is. usually they don't have any other win-condition apart from EtA

---

I agree with Gobo. Also, from my experience, pre sideboard, it is all about the race. Having Tinkerer to destroy Tops is awesome. The problem is post-board. Most decklists I have seen in my meta has 3-4 Moat/Humility. Moat you can get around with SGC. Humility just kills. Anarchy is a nice answer because it kills Moat, Humility, Elspeth, and Angels. Red Elemental Blast is also good for killing Jace and Clique. Needles are also good against Planeswalkers and Top. Otherwise, yeah, just race them. I guess we can always try to make our Kiki-Jiki/Crafter/Prospector infinite combo. :D ... j/k, kinda.

mans0011, I don't think you played badly. Though, against MUD, Tinkerer is fantastic. You can kill Voltaic Key, Mox Opal, and other cheap artifacts for days. I think Tinkerer is better then Tuktuk if you have five haste lords, mainly because he is potentially reusable. He can survive killing a Jitte with Chieftain online, and Batterskull the next turn. It rarely happens but feels great when it works. But Tuktuk is good if you just want to get the job done, for 4 mana. :/

feline, I tried an all goblins sideboard for fun once. Didn't do too well. lol It was fun to sideboard in Goatnapper against this one dude with Taurean Mauler (Dragon Stompy) and killing him with it. He was really mad. lol

@ Core
If we really want to limit the Core list, I think it is safe to just include:
4 Aether Vial
4 Lackey
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
These are our main engines. If we want to make the list as short as possible, this is probably it.

After the top 4, depending on the list, we would have a mix of Warchief and Winstigator as our engines.
4-8 Warchief / Winstigator
I'd be surprised to see a list that does well without Warchief and Winstigator. Our deck will be too slow.

After that, we can include our WinCon.
1-2 Krenko
1-2 SGC

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by magicmerl

The difference between what you have in the OP and my list is
3 Goblin piledriver
1 Goblin sharpshooter
2 Krenko, mob boss
3 Gempalm Incinerator
- 1 Siege-Gang Commander

When I see a list that has less than 3 Incinerators for example, I just think it's wrong. Surely there's some consensus about this?

Yeah, I get that. But the more that goblins becomes a streamlined and tuned deck, doesn't the core grow and become more stable?

---

I agree, though I could see 2. You had just better have a great reason for less than 3. I also think that anything less than 2 Piledrivers is a mistake.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by L10

After the top 4, depending on the list, we would have a mix of Warchief and Winstigator as our engines.
4-8 Warchief / Winstigator
I'd be surprised to see a list that does well without Warchief and Winstigator. Our deck will be too slow.

---

Why do you think that Winstigator is necessary? Isn't this the only really significant result Goblins has had recently? It doesn't run Winstigator. I ran it a while back and found it to be a little awkward to cast, fragile, and sometimes, ran out of stuff to cheat into play.

It's like buying a $1 lottery ticket for a chance to win $1,000,000 (lackey). And with a $2 lottery ticket you have a chance to win $2,000,000 (Winstigator). That second million is worth SO much worth than the first million it's not funny.

Quote:

---

I agree, though I could see 2. You had just better have a great reason for less than 3. I also think that anything less than 2 Piledrivers is a mistake.

---

Yeah. But the thing is, you want to draw Piledrivers, not tutor for them, right? It seems to me that cards we want to draw should be a 4-of. Cards that are too expensive to run 4-of we can run 2-3 of. Cards we want to tutor for can be a 1-of. Anything else means that we have built the deck a little incorrectly. Yes?

Winstigator is not necessary. Most decks just settle with 4 Warchiefs. But if you do run a Winstiagor list, you probably don't need a set of Warchiefs. Maybe a 3/3 split between Winstigator or Warchief. If you do not have Winstigator, your probably want a set of Warchiefs. Though, I have scene lists with a 3/3 split between Warchief and Cheiftain as haste lords. Winstigator can be awesome if your deck was tailored around it.

I was just browsing through the 'to-be-tested-cards', and saw Sensation Gorger. It seems really cool. What matchups benefit more from those extra cards than we do? We know we get at least one extra goblin out of it.


Plus it also lets us draw lands and removal which ringleader does not. Don't get me wrong, I'm not planning of replacing ringleader with one of these, but perhaps use 1 or 2 flexslots for them. What decks would benefit more from it? My guess is all unfair decks & stoneblade.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hencules

[...] Sensation Gorger.[...]

---

As you already mentioned unfair decks, yeah I wouldn't try it vs Dredge. But as it's a may you would still get a 2/2 for 3 out of it... which quite sucks.

Anyhow regarding stoneblade: I don't think so. They aren't so low on cards. So a normal control, holding counters / removal wouldn't like to get those discarded during your upkeep. Still I think in the current meta it wouldn't be so good. Decks like RUG would rather fire off what they have in hand in response to the trigger. Could be worth a try.

In theory it's a draw 4 every turn as by T4 you might be able to dump your hand every turn, concerning vial, lackey, warchiefs...

Almost all decks can use the graveyard as a resource, exept us. I wouldnt try it :rolleyes:

Hello fellow lackeys,

First of all, I should say I'm new to the board and to the legacy format, while being a long time player of the game.

This topic is great and very well organized, the primer on the first post is up to date with the hundreds of pages, which really helps newcomers (the same cannot be said of other archetypes, but I digress).

I'm decided to work on a Goblin list, and this thread has provided much food for thought, and then more. Thanks for all of you for the good work, and I hope I can keep the momentum going as soon as I get my own test results available.



I have 2cents to share with you guys on two topics:

@Core: I agree with the limited core proposed by L10 as a consensus, a safe, sure and tried list of 16 pieces that you should be using in your deck, for the sake of being called a vial goblin deck. The last lines of discussion have made me think that the core listed at the beggining might be suitable for a reduction. For example, one could wonder if 4 Cavern of Souls are also part of this core, or not. In my opinion 3 Gempalm Incinerator should be totally into the core, but I can see some going other ways.

Again, this would be what I'd call "consensus core" (blame me) proposed by L10 (blame him, hehe):
4 Aether Vial
4 Lackey
4 Matron
4 Ringleader

From here on, there are clearly different paths. Some use Chrome Mox + Warren Instigator "package", while others go usual ways like Chieftain, Warchief. There seems to be a debate now between Siege-Gang and Krenko as well, while some lists now have totally dropped the mana denial suite...

Instead of disagreeing if they are part of the core or not, we could reduce the core and the develop the idea of packages (as discussed in the Maverick thread, for example).

Just an idea, though.



@Rite of Flame

I haven't seen much of this card being discussed. In my fresh brainstorming of a goblin list (by fresh I mean without looking at the state of the art) it featured as an option. It could be an accelerator for WI, double lackey, lackey+vial, etc. Not to mention that in multiples it's not so bad as Chrome Mox, and it won't step you back a card as the artifact does. You could also do T1 Lackey, T2 Rite of Flame to Matron, search for SGC to cheat into play with Lackey (while without Rite you would have to Matron for SGC if it's not in your hand and have it played next turn).

Of course I can see downsides as well, such as it being a bad topdeck on a clean board, but the same can be said for Chrome Mox. An argument could also be made to it being countered on T1 by FOW or MM, but then I'd rather have the ritual countered than losing my key pieces, not to mention that the next ritual would be better.

I'd like to hear you guys on this card, and if it has already been discussed please point me to the corresponding page. I mean to test it anyways to see how it fares, though I wouldn't know what to drop.

That's all for a first post :)

Welcome, Cleston! I use to run a set of Rite of Flames in my Winstigator deck a while ago. I went with the more offensive route with 16 Mountain and 4 Wastelands. I recently tried Rite of Flames with a set Caverns in my Winstigator deck and it felt awkward for not getting legit red source in turn 1. 14 Mountains may be doable, but 16 felt right. I do prefer Rite of Flame over Chrome Mox overall because it doesn't lead to card disadvantage. A turn 1 Piledriver is pretty good too. Also, a late game Rite of Flame may not be bad. You can always fuel SCG. And with a good Ringleader, Rite of Flames may come in handy. So yeah, Rite of Flame is a good alternative from my testing, if you have a healthy amount of Mountains. But with the printing of Cavern of Souls, my mana base has become much more greedy. Sometimes, I can't turn 2 Gempalm for Lackey when I need to.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cleston

Hello fellow lackeys,

First of all, I should say I'm new to the board and to the legacy format, while being a long time player of the game.

---

Welcome Cleston.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cleston

There seems to be a debate now between Siege-Gang and Krenko as well,

---

Well, I think that they are the top end of the curve, but clearly there's such a thing as running too many of them. I think that there is definitely room for 1 SGC and 1 Krenko. If you want a third finisher, it probably goes to the 2nd SGC. If you are ok with 4, the 2nd Krenko. etc etc

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cleston

while some lists now have totally dropped the mana denial suite...

---

Only Port. Wasteland is still a 4-of in every list.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cleston

@Rite of Flame

I haven't seen much of this card being discussed. In my fresh brainstorming of a goblin list (by fresh I mean without looking at the state of the art) it featured as an option. It could be an accelerator for WI, double lackey, lackey+vial, etc. Not to mention that in multiples it's not so bad as Chrome Mox, and it won't step you back a card as the artifact does. You could also do T1 Lackey, T2 Rite of Flame to Matron, search for SGC to cheat into play with Lackey (while without Rite you would have to Matron for SGC if it's not in your hand and have it played next turn).

Of course I can see downsides as well, such as it being a bad topdeck on a clean board, but the same can be said for Chrome Mox. An argument could also be made to it being countered on T1 by FOW or MM, but then I'd rather have the ritual countered than losing my key pieces, not to mention that the next ritual would be better.

I'd like to hear you guys on this card, and if it has already been discussed please point me to the corresponding page. I mean to test it anyways to see how it fares, though I wouldn't know what to drop.

That's all for a first post :)

---

This is a very interesting point. It does seem very close to Chrome Mox as a card. My thoughts turn to
1. Is Rite of Flame better than Chrome Mox
2. If they are close and we're clearly not considering Rite, then perhaps Mox is also not good enough

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cleston

Hello fellow lackeys,

First of all, I should say I'm new to the board and to the legacy format, while being a long time player of the game.

This topic is great and very well organized, the primer on the first post is up to date with the hundreds of pages, which really helps newcomers (the same cannot be said of other archetypes, but I digress).

I'm decided to work on a Goblin list, and this thread has provided much food for thought, and then more. Thanks for all of you for the good work, and I hope I can keep the momentum going as soon as I get my own test results available.



I have 2cents to share with you guys on two topics:

@Core: I agree with the limited core proposed by L10 as a consensus, a safe, sure and tried list of 16 pieces that you should be using in your deck, for the sake of being called a vial goblin deck. The last lines of discussion have made me think that the core listed at the beggining might be suitable for a reduction. For example, one could wonder if 4 Cavern of Souls are also part of this core, or not. In my opinion 3 Gempalm Incinerator should be totally into the core, but I can see some going other ways.

Again, this would be what I'd call "consensus core" (blame me) proposed by L10 (blame him, hehe):
4 Aether Vial
4 Lackey
4 Matron
4 Ringleader

From here on, there are clearly different paths. Some use Chrome Mox + Warren Instigator "package", while others go usual ways like Chieftain, Warchief. There seems to be a debate now between Siege-Gang and Krenko as well, while some lists now have totally dropped the mana denial suite...

Instead of disagreeing if they are part of the core or not, we could reduce the core and the develop the idea of packages (as discussed in the Maverick thread, for example).

Just an idea, though.



@Rite of Flame

I haven't seen much of this card being discussed. In my fresh brainstorming of a goblin list (by fresh I mean without looking at the state of the art) it featured as an option. It could be an accelerator for WI, double lackey, lackey+vial, etc. Not to mention that in multiples it's not so bad as Chrome Mox, and it won't step you back a card as the artifact does. You could also do T1 Lackey, T2 Rite of Flame to Matron, search for SGC to cheat into play with Lackey (while without Rite you would have to Matron for SGC if it's not in your hand and have it played next turn).

Of course I can see downsides as well, such as it being a bad topdeck on a clean board, but the same can be said for Chrome Mox. An argument could also be made to it being countered on T1 by FOW or MM, but then I'd rather have the ritual countered than losing my key pieces, not to mention that the next ritual would be better.

I'd like to hear you guys on this card, and if it has already been discussed please point me to the corresponding page. I mean to test it anyways to see how it fares, though I wouldn't know what to drop.

That's all for a first post :)

---

Welcome fellow Warchief,

I'd like to respond to several ideas of your high-quality posting:

(1)
First of all, I'm glad to hear that this thread is organized. YOu are not the first one to say that this thread is a good read - a huge part of which is made possible by people who are posting tournament- and testing-results on a regular basis while keeping up a constructive and friendly atmosphere.

(2)
About the Core or "Concensus Core" or whatever you call it: The difference between the current Core" and what you and L10 suggested is 4 Warchiefs and 2 SGCs. I've spent considerable time on testing Goblin Warchief's performance after having him replaced by Chieftain for over a year. I cannot put in words how much Warchief is. So this card is IMO absolute core-stuff and it will stay there. Since I don't want to go into details regarding his performance (especially in contrast to Chieftain) you just have to believe me here.
However, I'm not sure wether 2 SGC is the correct number. It's taken for gratned that 2 SGCs have served many people well (enough) - so just take this number as a point of departure. Just yesterday I had an long discussion with a friend of mine regarding SGCs role in the deck (which was followed by a series of 7-hours-highly-concentrated-playtesting-session with SGCs being the card in question). We figured out that (1) it is not a good idea to replace SGC with Krenko (the Krenko/SGC-spot was always in favor of SGC when I drew it naturally) and (2) that I never needed a 2nd SGC but that at least 1 copy is an absolute must-have.
So, unless someone comes up with really, really convincing testing results on the number of SGC I will not delete him from the Core cards.
However, (and this one is important for all of you): I'm not the Goblin-Guru, I've just written the deckprimer. You do not need my permission to cut Warchiefes from the Core. The deckprimer is not a user-manual for Goblins. If anyone is thinking that Warchiefs should not be in the Core then it's fine for me - and for everyone. It's your deck. It's your game.

(3)
I like the idea of developing "packages" for the deck since we worked out quite some card interactions that are frequently played together in the same list (e.g. Skirk Prospector + MWM + Sharpshooter or Chieftain + Winstigator or you name it). SInce we are basically all working on the same deck, will some people please post some ideas for packages (aka. cards that you think should be played alongside eachother?).
I'm really curious if it works for Goblins. Thanks for this one - very good idea.

(4)
Rite of Flame (as far as I know we haven't discussed it yet) vs. Chrome Mox: I tested it once when I was looking for additional "ramp" -mana accel. However, I ended up using Chrome Mox since it is a permanent mana-source (which I found more apealing than those other cards that "only" give you speed). I'd be glad to hear your testing results on this - I will directly add them to the primer.

I do think a set of Warchiefs belong in the Core because 99% of all goblins decks run a set of them. The only goblin decks that doesn't need a full set is Winstigator, but even then, I still run with a 3/3 split between Warchief and Winstigator. Warchief is too good to cut out completely, imo. So I actually think the core list should look like this:

Core (20)
4 Aether Vial
4 Lackey
4 Warchief
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
Twenty is also a nicer number.

Regarding about SGC vs. Krenko, I have done a ton of testings lately, and I absolutely fell in love with Krenko, especially with 6-7 haste lords. Krenko has been winning me more games than SGC. Sometimes, I would Matron for Krenko instead of Ringleader, if Chieftain is in play. Here is why: If I go for Ringleader, I am essentially getting a 3/3 body and two random goblins. Sometimes, the draw is game-winning, sometimes, the draw is dead. But with Krenko, I am usually guaranteed a 4/4 body and make 4+ 2/2 hasty gobos prime for the offensive. If Krenko lives for round 2, it is pretty much game. This has happened a couple of games already. It's no fluke.

Though, I don't know how many Krenko and SGC belongs in the deck. I am currently playing with 2 Krenkos and 1 SGC, but I want a 2/2 split. Krenko can be underwhelming with just a playset of Warchiefs though. But with two or more Chieftain and a set of Warchiefs, he does work.

L10, how does your 60 look like?

23 Lands/20 Core/2Chieftain/4 Piledriver/2 Krenko/1SCG/Xx?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by L10

I do think a set of Warchiefs belong in the Core because 99% of all goblins decks run a set of them.

---

This is the type of thing that plagues forums like this one, and makes it hard for decks to advance. Rather then looking at what everyone else is doing I would just love to hear a discussion of the merits of Warchief over Chieftain. I am tired of hearing the results speak for themselves. (because quite frankly I am not sure they do.) I like everyone else used to run Warchief over Chieftain, but when asked why I had a very difficult time articulating why. It took me very extensive testing to come to the conclusion that perhaps Chieftain is where you want to be at. So please take some serious time in responding, I am interested in hearing both sides.

RE: Warchief v. Chieftan:

Let me start by saying that I run a WInstigator list, not necessarily because it is better, but because I believe that it is just as good and it fits my play-style better.

I started out running 4 Chieftains and no Warchiefs. Almost immediately I switched to 4 Chieftans and 1 Warchief so that I could Matron for the chief if I needed him, but I was finding that he was also very good when drawn naturally. This shouldn't be a surprise to anyone who has played a lot of Goblins. Warchief is good.

At the SCG Invitational in Baltimore I switched to a 3-2 split and went 3-1 in Legacy (2-2 technically, but I had the win on board and blew it, so lets say the deck went 3-1 and I went 2-2). All day Chieftan was good, and so was Warchief. Both are almost always good.

When Krenko was spoiled (RIP Kiki-Jiki, it's been fun), I decided that I wanted 6 haste enablers, and upped the numbers to 3 of each, and I really like this split. It allows for the muscle of chieftan AND the speed of Warchief, with 6 ways to ensure that Krenko can tap immediately.

Something that I believe is overblown is the lack of synergy between Warchief and WInstigator. WI and Warchief may be slightly less synergistic than Warchief and the rest of the Goblins in the deck, but they still work well. Warchief STILL gives WInstigator Haste, and he only costs 2 to begin with, so the cost is very rarely an issue. In the words of Joe Biden, haste is a BIG FUCKING DEAL on Warren Instigator. A common play is to vial in a 3-drop haste enabler or WI, and then just cast the other one and swing. Boom. Game over. I cannot emphasize enough how devastating a hasted WInstigator is. I can realistically tell you that I have won over 80% of the games in which I've connected with him, no matter the matchup.

Another overlooked synergy is BETWEEN Warchief and Chieftan. Vial in Warchief, cast Chieftan, cast MWM, swing for 9 off of nothing but a vial and 3 mountains. At the end of the day, both are going to be very good, and both let Krenko tap immediately, which is what we want these days at the top of our "chain."

Where I'm going with this is here: I don't understand how you play Goblins without some number of Warchiefs. At least 1, most likely 2, should probably be in the core. Does anyone here run less than 2 and feel otherwise? I'd love to hear your points.

For reference, this is my current list, which I am testing in preparation for SCGDC (I'm back and forth on the Moxes):

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wastelands
11 Mountain
2 Chrome Mox

4 Aether Vial

4 Goblin Lackey

3 Warren Instigator
3 Mogg War-Marshall
2 Stingscourger
2 Goblin Piledriver

4 Goblin Matron
3 Goblin Warchief
3 Goblin Chieftain

4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

1 Siege-Gang Commander

3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Tarfire

SB:
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Graffdigger's Cage
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

I hope this was helpful. The most likely changes are +1 Gempalm for something, or switching back to mountains from the Moxes. I'll keep you guys up to date on the testing process.

mrblueduck , we have extensively talked about Warchief vs. Cheiftain for a while now. In this thread and the old thread. To be honest, I don't even categorize Warchief and Chieftain together, even if many people do because both creatures gives haste. I rather compare Chieftain to Goblin King as +1/+1 lords.

The problem with goblins is that we run many cards with high CMC; Matron costs 3, Ringleader costs 4, SGC costs 5. That's a pretty high curve compared to most Legacy decks. We can cheat them in through Vial, Lackey, or Winstigator. But eventually, we have to cast them. This is where Warchief comes in.

Let's say we have Vial @ 3, 2 Ports, and 3 Mountains in play.
Scenario 1: Chieftain in play
1. We Vial in Matron for Ringleader
2. We cast Ringleader for 4 and get Lackey, MWM, Piledriver, and Gempalm
In this case, the only thing we can do is cast Lackey.
Scenario 2: Warchief in play
1. We Vial in Matron for Ringleader
2. We cast Ringleader for 3 and get Lackey, MWM, Piledriver, and Gempalm
Now we have two options. We can play MWM and Piledriver. Or, we can use Gempalm if there is a threat.

Warchief allows us to abuse our manabase. Warchief + Skirk Prospect also turn MWM into a red Dark Ritual if we need it. This is why I call Warchief an engine. Chieftain is not an engine. Chieftain is great when we have an army. Warchief helps us get there. They play different roles. I can go on, but seriously, we have all played games where Warchief just "combos" off a Ringleader and swing for the Alpha Strike.

(nameless one), here is my current list. It is not perfect. I want to run more MWM and more Chieftains, but just can't find room.

// Lands [22]
10 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Cavern of Souls

// Core [20]
4 AEther Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader

// Others [18]
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Piledriver
2 Krenko, Mob Boss
2 Goblin Chieftain
2 Mogg War Marshal
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Skirk Prospector

// Sideboard
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
2 Stingscourger
2 Pyroblast
2 Anarchy
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Pithing Needle
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Relic of Progenitus

I have a singleton Goblin Tinkerer because I wanted an additional answer to Jitte. In my original list, I run with 4 MWM, 2 SGC, and no Chieftains. Because now I have Chieftains, I can't use Sharpshooter as a ghetto solution against Jitte as often with 1/1 gobos. I can replace Tinkerer with SGC but SGC doesn't help in the early game. Also, with 6 haste lords, Tinkerer is actually pretty good. Tinkerer can kill Top and still live. With Chieftain, Tinkerer can survive Jitte, primed for Batterskull. Against decks that relies artifacts (Stoneforge, Counter Top, etc), Tinkerer can also act as Spellskite, which is neat.

I only have 4 kill spells but Gempalm is the only kill spell that was ever good for me. Sometimes, I just need a cantrip. But yeah, I am still working on the list.

thanks to woodjt5 and L10 for looking into the question. However I feel like woodtj5 focused mostly on why he choose to do a split, and not rather why either are good options. L10 says it pretty clearly, Warchief can better, because it uses resources much more efficiently and allows goblin players to dump there hand more quickly/ abuse our resources. However this is ignoring the other spectrum, and that is creature efficiency. This approach seems to be essentially sacrificing creature efficiency for resource efficiency.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GoboLord

The deckprimer is not a user-manual for Goblins. If anyone is thinking that Warchiefs should not be in the Core then it's fine for me - and for everyone. It's your deck. It's your game.

---

^ This ^

Continuing the discussion!
To me the core (what I cannot imagine a goblin deck not to contain) is:
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader

Really Wasteland is in there too. Removal like Gempalm Incinerator does not belong in this list. A few months ago Tarfire was my go to when SFM was all around me. A shifting meta makes it hard to call cards like these core unless you want to frequently revise what core means.

I'm a big fan of the "packages" idea. I am testing a slight modification on Scatman's list. WInstigator is more my style. I see package potential in Winstigator/Chieftain and Piledriver/Warchief. Piley seems good when the meta turns fishy.

I also think Krenko, Mob Boss, Siege-Gang Commander, Wort, Boggart Auntie, Lightning Crafter, Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker could be considered "high-end" (or whatever) goblins. It's not so much that any of them are core, but you're going to run X number in your 75.

Chrome Mox is my preferred acceleration. Realistically how much acceleration do you want? 4 Rite of Flame seems really bad. Testing could prove me wrong, but I've already stated what I'm using. I currently have 1 maindeck with either 1 or 2 in the board. Ringleader rarely makes me regret imprinting a goblin. And a turn 1 WInstigator is just so much fun to play.

@Clenston: Welcome

@L10: With 4 Cavern of Souls, Gempalm Incinerator is not as good but Stingscourger is fantastic for clearing Lackey's way!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mrblueduck

thanks to woodjt5 and L10 for looking into the question. However I feel like woodtj5 focused mostly on why he choose to do a split, and not rather why either are good options. L10 says it pretty clearly, Warchief can better, because it uses resources much more efficiently and allows goblin players to dump there hand more quickly/ abuse our resources. However this is ignoring the other spectrum, and that is creature efficiency. This approach seems to be essentially sacrificing creature efficiency for resource efficiency.

---

I believe Warchief is the better of the two maindeckable lords when used together with Aether Vial, Piledriver, Wasteland, and Rishadan Port. Being able to deny your opponents mana while making your spells easier to play and immediate threats is huge.
Being able to vial in Warchief with three mana, play Matron into Piledriver, attack for 8 is nuts. Warchief allows that.

When you cut any of those cards, Chieftain begins to look better. Especially if the cards you are putting in have RR in the cost.