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I like to be 60 cards but I sometimes do 61 or in cube im a firm believer in 24/17 (41).
Each time I have played ashiok in legacy, I was already ahead and it did nothing to the board state. Definitely just meh.
I have no practice with negate in legacy but I imagine its good, not necessarily 4 of good but I don't play bug fit so theres that.
Thinking about whether to include a CMC6 Zenith target in Scapewish again. Normally I go pretty all in on the combo, but I'm tempted to strengthen the backup plan a bit.
* Primeval Titan
+ Synergy with Wolf Run, Manlands, and Phyrexian Tower
+ Trample
- Colorless lands are awkward in Scapeshift, the manabase is already vulnerable
- Vulnerable to PtE/Swords and Liliana
- Does nothing about Marit Lage (can't really play Karakas or Maze of Ith)
* Broodmate Dragon
+ Two bodies - resistant to pretty much all removal
+ Flying slows down Marit Lage related death
- Token dies to just about anything (decay, my deeds, bounce)
- Slow clock compared to Titan+Wolf-Run
* Dragon Broodmother
+ Devour is an inbuilt sac outlet for Vets etc.
+ Stops Lage infinitely
+ Liliana is not happy
- Most vulnerable to Path/Swords
* Ruric Thar
+ Kills combo decks 100%
+ Reach, Vigilance are good
- 6 damage isn't too relevant if he eats removal straight away
- No evasion - Mother of Runes laughs at him
- Having to attack is pretty awkward on stalled boards
I'm leaning towards Primeval Titan at the moment but the second utility land (after Tower) feels pretty worrying.
If you play prime time, cant you justify a single karakas? Also Prime Time best 6 cmc green bro.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
No, Karakas in Scape is pretty bad, it doesn't even tap for a color the deck uses. Every other utility land outside of Valakut (obviously) is pretty useless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
PrimeTime helps the most in the main goal > Kill with Valakut.
Edit: Ruric-Thar is pretty descent, but often you never get to the point where he actually sees play. Against non-combo you really have to be careful when to play it, since a slight misplay can cause it be into your opponents advantage.
Jund fit CANNOT deal with lage outside of blocking with a flier to buy time. A single karakas out of the board would be more than fine if your meta calls for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
KWR is utility and it is not useless. I have won many games off the heels of making a creature huge and winning because my opponent didn't know what the land was.
I agree with ruric thar reasoning. I advise against playing him since we just have much better options.
Lands plays Wasteland, Rishadan Port, Life from the Loam, Crop Rotation and Exploration. Karakas will never meet Marit Lage (at least not against experienced players).Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
Utility lands don't fit ScapeWish.dec. You want to develop boardpresence on your coloured manabase. The faster, the better. Going for KWR or manlands polutes your manabase in such a way that is stands between your development towards combo'ing with Scapeshift. Plus it requires dedication on your decklist, meaning there is less efficient cards in there. Huntmaster, for example, has various functionality and helps to transition into your kill.
Assuming the worst doesn't make for a strong game plan or mentality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
I understand the necessity of a critical mass of lands that do something but if you want a 6cmc gsz target, prime time is the best back up that also caters to your combo. KWR is also an insane backup plan.
If "worst" was only what one could call it. Karakas is the best option vs Marit on paper. But IRL it ain't simply because how RG Lands plays out. Marit Lage is inevitable. It has nothing to do with my mentality, it is reality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
Edit: The RG Lands player will most likely create the Marit Lage on your end step. IF you have Karakas in play he will obviously tap it with Port or just waste it, or he won't make Marit Lage. Say you have Karakas on your hand and you have 20+ life he can either setup an immediate 2nd DD+Stage via Loam + Exploration because he anticipates the Karakas option (or Swords/Path) or one swing brings you in Punishing Fire range. All this is not really worst case, it is just every game like this against that horrible deck.
So the lands game plan is dodge? outside of needle im not sure what you can be doing to fend it off. Ideally, you needle stage and surgical fires so they cannot win.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
If its that bad, play blood moon and decay it when you want to scapeshift.
Surgical Fires/Depths when they dredge it. Blood Moon puts you into a good spot (Therapy on Krosan Grip), but with 2/3 Moons in a non-blue deck it still pretty random. Take Crop/Gamble with Therapy/Thougtseize. Decay Exploration/manabond (but manabond is pretty much game over anyway). Get 20+ life and drop Liliana after the first swing. Decay Molten Vortex. Junk obviously has Path to Exile, so it becomes a race really. Scavenging Ooze with 3 or 5+ thoughness is also pretty decent. Deathrite Shaman also decent, but often catches PFire. Grab Veteran Explorer and Fetch basics only. Dryad Militant can be decent as well if they start dredging. Needle on Stage helps. All in all you got some things going on, but it still is very hard. You need some turns and luck (and they need some badluck/draws).Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
RG Lands is the most difficult match-up for NicFit.
those are all indeed options.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
I disagree that it is the most difficult matchup but it is certainly not a good one.
Agreed. Needle and Surgical do good work. Siege Rhino and Sigarda are one of the few ways to interact with lands in general.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
-Matt
Ill also do a bunch more replying tomorrow,since I have a two hout boat ride with nothing to do.
Boat ride? Where are we going?Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
I work during the day so I lurk most of the morning and afternoon
Also: Is there an update to the cloudpost waste nic fit deck???? That list made my nether regions wiggle.
Update: 16-04-2016 - Baseline list for metagaming spreadsheet.
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
4 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Primeval Titan // Knight of the Reliquary
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Painful Truths
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Path to Exile
2 Anguished Unmaking // Vindicate // Maelstrom Pulse
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
SB: 2 Deathrite Shaman
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Reclamation Sage // Qasali Pridemage
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Garruk Relentless
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Choke // Tsunami
Sidetrack 28-03-'16
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Thragtusk
3 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Sun Titan
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Diabolic Intent
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Path to Exile
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Karakas
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
3 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
SB: 1 Reclamation Sage
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Garruk Relentless
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Choke
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Deathrite Shaman
@bobmans- our lists are virtually the same give or take 5 cards in the main . My question for you is how good has dromoka been I have a thragusk in that slot and have been very happy with him being my second resilent bomb the other glaring difference is the lack of a catch-all im playing a pulse where you have the 4th path. aside from those differences im playing the deathrites and teeg over the courser nissa and meren. nissa seems good and i may have to try her over the second deathrite.
Dromoka is not set in stone for me. I do like the beefy flying body with lifelink. With 4 Rhino i did not feel the need to include Thragtusk, especially considering the list runs Meren, EWitness and phyrexian Tower as ways of looping them.
Granted that the combination of 4 Veteran Explorer with Courser and Nissa the deck smoothly and very consistently ramps up to the point where i wanted something bigger. Really DLD was the "best" fit, but i keep my eyes open for something more juicy.
Tbh i still have to try Empath+Karador, but shipment from Japan takes a while. Also this list is more about efficiency then going tech (i do prefer tech tho).
DRS is a really nice card, but i often found it just a tad inreliable and felt one step short of overloading the game. Veteran/Nissa/Courser ramp way more reliable, while Scooze is still the better gravehate (Scooze sometimes amazes me and i forget how well a card it is). He also beats DRS stand-off's. I moved DRS to the board rather then playing Carpet because DRS is really solid against Matchup's like Reanimator and Storm.
Then i have 4 Path and 0 Pulse. Path is what makes Junk superiour to other splashes when dealing with decks that go bigger, Reanimate/MUD/Eldrazi, etc. Plus i want to play aggresive on the fair matchup. Ramp and keep the board clear. With DRS out of the way i van also play aggresive with the Deeds. Because i do, Painful Truths becomes a better card and one thing that is important in this meta (which became clear to me the other day by someone elses remark), is the ability to keep pace with Shardless in terms of advantage. Going for a Thruths and finding Path to Exile means you are often able to cast the Path right away to. So because sum it up for Path over Pulse is that the list overloads in terms of creature removal that the added reach of Pulse was not needed.
I Also considered Liliana, but having so much card advantage means your less often hellbend.
Re: Dealing with Lands as Jund
Do you think Dead // Gone is worth it, probably out of the board? It bounces Lage and Dead is reasonable in matchups where you just want removal (kills Mirran Crusader which is nice). I guess our board is already rather cramped if we're playing Burning Wish, but it seems like it could be a reasonable choice.
I don't think Lands represents enough of the metagame to truly worry about it with that many slots. I think you can do good work with Needles, and have applicability in other matchups. If you NEED to wipe them out, run Ruination or something.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
Actually, I played against land twice during a GP a few years ago, with scapeshift and I was not prepared to face such a deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
I won both 2/0.
I think you don't need to devote space for this MU (aside the usual Surgical/Ooze).
Imho, what really matters is speed.
Land & Scape are both a combo deck in a sense.
Both matches, I was able to take a hit from Marit Lage since Thragtusk and Huntmaster gain you life and we don't have much fetchlands.
So getting over 20 should be your priority.
And I just scapeshift'd him back the very next turn.
Was I lucky ? Maybe or not.
I think you should rather focus on your own velocity.
Will you be able to scape on T4 or T5 ?
Furthermore, the "velocity" thing happened quite a few other times against another deck: dredge.
My two cents.