[DTB] Vial Goblins

Being a long, long time player of goblins (posting pretty consistent and good results, too), I have mixed feelings on Instigator. I'm going to break him down in to pros and cons to try and make this easier to read.

PROS:
- If he connects, your board position is instantly amazing.
- double strike means he gets through elspeth tokens / opposing lackeys / unpumped geese / Confidants / a bunch of stuff. This is an overlooked point.
- Costs 2, an underutilized spot on the curve

CONS:
- Is small. (Although saying he's a 1/1 is dumb, he's effectively a 2/1, as others have pointed out.)
- Costs double red, making ports relatively unplayable imho.
- requires a fair amount of backup. If he's sitting there staring down a goyf, you better have a weirding or scourger or something to back him up.

I realize most of this is self explanatory and has been discussed, but when you break it down, you can see what you need to address to determine whether he's playable. If you want to abuse him, you need to: Have enough Red, and have enough backup.

So what I've done, is cut ports (something most people seem really scared of doing, but so far hasn't hurt me much) and change around my removal suite to 3 Weirding / 3 Stingscourger / 1 Incinerator. The incinerator is often needed as a 1 of in certain situations, and he's rarely dead, especially late game (which is when you're most likely to get him as a 1-of, unless you tutor). Weirdings and Stingscourgers are pro at clearing the way for lackeys and Instigators.
I also am using 3 Piledrivers instead of lords. As others have pointed out, pumping works well with instigator, but piledriver is just too powerful and fast, and if you're running 2/1s, I figured you need the speed.

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Originally Posted by Melman

requires a fair amount of backup. If he's sitting there staring down a goyf, you better have a weirding or scourger or something to back him up.

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See, this is the point I've been trying to make about Warren Instigator all along. Him sitting there and staring down a Tarmogoyf is not a bad thing. It often means the Tarmogoyf isn't swinging and you're going into a longer game, which means more time for you to abuse Ringleader/Siege-Gang/Matron/General Goblin Asshattery.

If Warren Instigator can't swing because a Goyf is in the way, it most likely means one of three things:

1. You have a Chieftain or Warchief out and you just played it.
2. You Vialed it in EOT while your opponent was tapped out and hasn't removed it yet.
3. You played it last turn, and your opponent took a turn and didn't remove it, which means it's likely he doesn't have removal for it.

Of the three, Scenario 1's the most likely to go awry, and it isn't bad at all, because if you kept a Chieftain or Warchief out for very long, it may mean your opponent lacks removal.

In Scenario 2, you just upped your Vial to 3 counters, and your Instigator can happily play defense while you go crazy with the Vial.

In Scenario 3, your opponent probably doesn't have removal, so you're probably going to win the long game by massing up a Goblin army, because his Tarmogoyf can't afford to swing either.

So while I agree having removal to get your Goblin through is really fantastically awesome, here's my point: Warren Instigator does not have to hit to be good. The fact that he skews how your opponent plays is enough. If they aren't swinging, you buy time and win more long games. If they spend counters on him, they aren't countering Matron/Ringleader. If they remove him, you're reducing the flexibility of how your opponent spends his removal. Etc.

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Originally Posted by Melman

PROS:
- Costs 2, an underutilized spot on the curve

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Melman

my removal suite to 3 Weirding / 3 Stingscourger / 1 Incinerator. I also am using 3 Piledrivers instead of lords.

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With 4 Instigator, 3 Weirding, 3 Stingscourger, and 3 Piledrivers the 2cc spot doesn't seem like an underutilized spot in the curve, it seems like the bulk of your drops. I'd assume 8-10 1cc cards, 13 2cc cards, 9-11 3cc cards, 4-5 4cc cards, and 1-3 5cc cards.

Overall I would list his casting cost as a con. He there are several good 2cc Goblins, those you're using as well as Mogg War Marshall. And the fact that he is RR rather than 1R prevents him from having synergy with Warchief and Rishadan Port/Mutavault.

Warren Instigator also grows faster than other creatures in the deck when you have lords in play. Siege-Gang and others that make tokens are also great with lords. Perhaps the only problem is that adding four instigators and more sieges leaves no room for lords without trimming the list in other aspects.

I'd say that instigator is a four-of and the rest of the list should change to accomodate them. Give or take advantages and disadvantages, it's four more of the best card (Lackey).

Anyone else seem to be having trouble fitting in all the new goblins that are actually pretty good in their lists? The traditional Vial Goblins from end of Onslaught block is woefully outdated with the advent of Chieftain and the newcomer Instigator.

Is Gempalm still a high priority for the mono-red builds?
Are four Piledrivers necessary? Can three cut it?
How does Mogg War Marshall fit into the picture?

Hi to the thread!
I'm atm testing something like this, though it maybe needs some corrections:

// Lands
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
15 [ZEN] Mountain
3 [TE] Wasteland
2 [TSP] Gemstone Caverns

// Creatures
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
3 [US] Goblin Matron
2 [PLC] Stingscourger
2 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
3 [ZEN] Warren Instigator
4 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
2 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [IA] Anarchy
SB: 2 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 3 [R] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst

Notes:
-24 lands may be too much, but I really like the cavern boost on the draw, I don't want to lose too much LD (waste is not good alone, and port is underrated without waste), and I don't want to go too much low with colored sources. Yes, I'm asking for the moon, maybe.
-4/2 split chieftain/warchief: chieftain is more suited for instigator, and i feel the cost reduction is a little less relevant in here. a 3/3 split would also do, maybe.
- a switch between matron and incinerator's slot is something to consider

All in alla, the new instigator is a bomb, especially in the control MU; but Tacosnape already said all the things I would have said on the topic, so nothing to add for me.

I honestly wouldn't even consider going below 4 warchiefs, the tempoboost this guy gives is simply incredible.

The most important cards in the deck, in my opinion, are Matron, Warchief, Ringleader & Æther Vial. I would never play less than four of any of them. Lackey is also really strong and Piledriver does massive damage. That is the "problem" with the deck, in that more than half of it builds itself and there is not a lot of wiggle room. If you start cutting goblins, Ringleader and Incinerators become worse. Things like that.

That being said, I do think that Instigator can find a place in the deck, however I would absolutely not, under any circumstances, be trying to alter the deck just for that card. I'm not going to put in Chrome Mox. I'm not going to put in Chieftain. If anything, it's just going to go in the Mogg Fanatic slot. On the first turn, you're playing a Lackey or a Vial anyway, not a Fanatic.

i would not cut the piledrivers. They are the ones that make the alpha attack possible, and having 4 makes easier drawing 2 to make the killer team, swinging for 5 or more.

Incinerator is the outdated to me. Maybe is my metagame, where dreadnoughts and 4/5 goyfs are very common, but i still think that they aren't killing too much lately..and with a early instigator in play, you will be dealing one damage.

weirding are really awful IMO. They don't ensure killing the creature you want, and they cost 2. And they are tribal,and sorceries, pumping the goyf.

Pyrokinesis is a great card with instigator, and against goyf. But is not a goblin!!!.... o really?, Who cares when you can kill a fattie or a bunch of 1/1 without mana!

Card disadvantage in an aggro deck generally isn't what you want. A countered Pyrokinesis is much worse then a countered Warren's Weirding and Gempalm Incinerator cannot be countered and gives you card advantage.

If Dreadnoughts are your problem pyrokinesis doesn't help you either but the best card Goblins has against it is either weirding or stingscourger.

On the subject of Piledriver, I think he's great when you're playing with 8 Haste Enablers. Instigator gets much better with it too.

I think it is possible to cut a couple Piledrivers, actually. I wouldn't cut any Gempalms from a mono-red build, though.

I still have my doubts that Instigator is worth cutting any of the current staples, but I'm willing to let playtesting change my mind.

In my honest opinion Stingscourger is the most synergistic removal card in combination with Goblin Chieftain and Warren Instigator.

Stingscourger is an unsummon which can potentially have haste and attack once, or block a creature for a turn. Then it disappears (Unless you pay the echo cost, which I've never had to resort to. Seems like a waste of a 4 mana turn in legacy goblins)

Warren Weirding seems like a better choice in my opinion.

Has anyone else contemplated splashing white for STP?

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Originally Posted by Jayzonious

Has anyone else contemplated splashing white for STP?

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Have you read the thread? Splashing white sucks.

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Originally Posted by Ectoplasm

Have you read the thread? Splashing white sucks.

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A lot of italians do it anyway though.

White does have access to Mirror Entity and Crib Swap.

There's a new goblin that blows up NB-land with kicker. Nice idea, 'cause he can be vialed in for less without throwing off curve

I play mono-red goblins, and the only situation when I would have preferred Weirding over Stingscourger is when I've had to get rid of an opposing mongoose. Otherwise, I've always liked stingscourger. I've never felt the card disadvantage was relevant because my late game is so good.

For me, the main uses of stingscourger are:
1) Connecting with lackey - I prefer stingscourger here because Weirding gives them a choice. In situations where my opponent attacks me leaving behind 1 blocker for lackey, weirding doesn't help lackey connect.
1a) Playing defense with lackey - if my opponent knows I play stings, he is sometimes reluctant to attack even if he has superior board position.
2) Defense - The removal of weirding here might be better, but i've never liked giving my opponent a choice of what creature to remove. Even though stingscourger is technically card disadvantage, the tempo gain (bounce + block) is often a significant step towards reaching the mid-late game.
3) Assembling an alpha strike - again, I feel stingscourger is better here because it gets rid of the most significant threat.
4) Maindeck solution to Dreadnought and tombstalker- this is relevant for me because of dreadstill in the meta. Weirding is not a consistent solution because of factories and goyfs in dreadstill.

There are other indirect merits for running stingscourger as well, such as staying mono-red, but that's a separate issue altogether.

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Originally Posted by dearleader

I play mono-red goblins, and the only situation when I would have preferred Weirding over Stingscourger is when I've had to get rid of an opposing mongoose. Otherwise, I've always liked stingscourger. I've never felt the card disadvantage was relevant because my late game is so good.

For me, the main uses of stingscourger are:
1) Connecting with lackey - I prefer stingscourger here because Weirding gives them a choice. In situations where my opponent attacks me leaving behind 1 blocker for lackey, weirding doesn't help lackey connect.
1a) Playing defense with lackey - if my opponent knows I play stings, he is sometimes reluctant to attack even if he has superior board position.
2) Defense - The removal of weirding here might be better, but i've never liked giving my opponent a choice of what creature to remove. Even though stingscourger is technically card disadvantage, the tempo gain (bounce + block) is often a significant step towards reaching the mid-late game.
3) Assembling an alpha strike - again, I feel stingscourger is better here because it gets rid of the most significant threat.
4) Maindeck solution to Dreadnought and tombstalker- this is relevant for me because of dreadstill in the meta. Weirding is not a consistent solution because of factories and goyfs in dreadstill.

There are other indirect merits for running stingscourger as well, such as staying mono-red, but that's a separate issue altogether.

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Those two are the biggest for me. Aside from staying Mono-Red.

The tempo gain is definitely insane against agro, when you're able to bounce the spell they invested their turn casting (Goyf / Thoctar) and chump whatever they had on board already. It's basically like all either of you got out of your turn was a draw step and another land in play, which against agro is an amazing push into the mid game.

The assembling an alpha strike point is also huge, because these are the situations when there likely is a haste granter in play, there's possibly a Chieftain or Piledriver in play, so you're getting a blocker out of the way and getting an extra 2-4 points swinging in.

About Stingscourger. I also found that with 8 lackeys it's much, much better. So, I decided I wanted to try 4.
The 2 cc slot is becoming more and more full with WI addition, so I decided i could safely go with 3 Piledrivers. If you're not considering the Merfolk matchup (that is,undoubtly (sp?) positive), piledriver is really good only when your team is good, with at least other 2 guys. With 3 you'll still have this guy when your board position is good.
What other slot to cut? This guy buys time. You need this time to draw/play lands and reach the mid/late game. The deck now also has 4 more ways to cheat on mana, so cutting lands for something that helps you connecting might be worth it. Since you have less lands, you want them to be untouchable.

So, I'm now trying (still not sure about it) a version with 34 goblins:
4 Lackey, WI, Warchief, Matron, Ringleader, Gempalm, Stingscourger,
3 Piledriver
2 Chieftain
1 SGC

4 Vial
4 Waste
18 Mountains

Thoughts?