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I am new to this forum as well as to Nic Fit as a deck I have Jund Fit built a none P.fire, and I use Blood Moon to beat lands its not an end all be all but it can slow if not cripple their game for a while. The best you could have done is not brain storm with jace at the end, but use his -1 bounce merit back to the hand...I think that is the best move possible during your match after you -12 on JTMS. I hope this helpsQuote:
Originally Posted by Cliq
Beast within might help. I play one main instead of Vindicate because I like the instant speed and only G not wb. Someone suggested it pages ago and I like the idea.
It might just be that my opponents have all been incompetent with the deck, but back when I ran two DRS main board I never had an issue with lands. I did often get lucky to have the path that stops the turn two lage, but drs helps so much in the mu especially turn one
Not to be mean, your opponents had bad luck or were incompetent. The matchup is bad, whether it is control Lands or RG Lands. It's a fucking hard grind. Fires or the mini-Seismic are bad for us (killing Scooze/DRS). Basically, the only way to get there is Needle Maze if they don't have you dead to rights so you can attack, or hope for a quick Blood Moon and try to plug the board with garbage. I think Control Lands is the only one playing maindeck EE right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vestige
When I beat lands its either because of multiple surgical extractions using eternal witnesses, or a hexproof creature with a SoFaI getting in damage past their Mazes and Fires. Plus occasional path or stp for a marit lage.
But yea, not a matchup I'm gunning for. Thankfully the deck is difficult to get hold of.
Also it looked like Ulysee had a winning line for your game state on the previous page?
Lands is everywhere up here, unfortunately. I think I'm going to jam a Back to Basics in the SB and see what happens, it also really hoses some other decks as well as shutting off Maze and really messing up their ability to get their engine going.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jain_Mor
@Cliq, did you see this post?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulysse95
I can't remember, honestly. I think Jace may have actually been at 11, so I had to choose between ticking him up one more and losing him, or brainstorming. That or I just missed it until the next turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jain_Mor
I'm also trying (slowly) to test the enchantment build. My eyes are recovering from surgery or else I would have jammed several leagues already by now with it, I'm only 50 or so tix from being able to test it online. I did invite a friend over and slaughtered him with it - when he played Death&Taxes. When he switched to Shardless I had trouble with mana early on and clunky hands. Bumped up the GSZ count to 4 afterward to see if it would help find Vets early. Some of that was Hymn doing work, I'm sure post sideboard would help with the Leyline of Singularities coming in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jain_Mor
So far I'm impressed. Don't even need Humility main - Starfield + Deed recursion just flat out wins. GSZ for Eidolon of Blossoms and you start drawing a ton of cards. End of turn Rector sac to grab Deed for emergencies...or just get Starfield end of turn, get back a used Deed from earlier, continue on.
The only real thing I want to find out is what can be brought in from the side to defeat Miracles. It is always the bogeyman. Not sure if Assemble the Legion or if something more combo-y like Dovescape + Curse of Death's Hold would be better...or if other avenues should be persued. What I really want is just one single enchantment to bring them to their knees. One enchantment to rule them all.
Also, the build is just a tad clunky, but tuning will help with that. The power level of Starfield is very high, I'm feeling, and helps excuse some clunkiness.
Found this one today..
Thalia, Heretical Cathar
Color: White
Type: Legendary Creature - Human, Soldier
Rarity: Rare
Set: Eldritch Moon
First strike
Creatures and nonbasic lands your opponents control enter the battlefield tapped.
Seems like d&t gets a new friend
You can probably use Retreat to Emeria as an option that's very similar to Assemble the Legion without having to add red.Quote:
Originally Posted by square_two
On the subject of enchantments, how much could Miracles really do to Heliod, God of the Sun? Councils Judgment is their only way to remove him as long as devotion stays down, and you can just dump mana into him forever to make 2/1's. It seems to me like they would pretty much have to Moat you at that point.
Isn't Bitterblossom significantly better?Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
Very possible, when I suggested Bitterblossom a few weeks ago though it was shot down. I don't remember the exact reason but it will eventually kill you, and it matches up pretty poorly with Deed. On the other hand, it gets over Moat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliq
In the limited testing I have had so far, beating miracles with it seems fine. The key is getting a Starfield out, and then casting as many enchantments as you can. That's where the Stering Groves are useful since you get to enlightened tutor every turn. You find deed so they can't kill you and then eventually you find Faith's fetters to shut down their Jace's and then another Starfield to stop council's or Venser bounce and you've won. Most lists aren't playing RIP anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by square_two
I havent had time to play many post board games, I guess it gets significantly worse afterwards? But we get access to choke and carpets? Maybe they become favoured post board if they have RIP or surgical extractions, not sure? more testing required..
Given that the primer states that Nic Fit can be "hilariously" (and this is pretty funny) a budget deck, I genuinely want people's opinions on SaffronOlive's list from MTGGoldfish.
Land (23)
1x Dryad Arbor
4x Forest
1x Godless Shrine
2x Overgrown Tomb
1x Phyrexian Tower
2x Plains
3x Swamp
1x Temple Garden
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
Instant (5)
2x Abrupt Decay
3x Swords to Plowshares
Planeswalker (1)
1x Sorin, Grim Nemesis
Creature (14)
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Eternal Witness
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Scavenging Ooze
4x Siege Rhino
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Thragtusk
4x Veteran Explorer
Sorcery (11)
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Painful Truths
Enchantment (3)
3x Pernicious Deed
Artifact (3)
3x Sensei's Divining Top
Sideboard (15)
2x Carpet of Flowers
1x Choke
3x Duress
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Extirpate
2x Garruk Relentless Flip
1x Krosan Grip
1x Ratchet Bomb
1x Toxic Deluge
Note that while I am new to Legacy, this seems a little sketchy to me. Zero Hymns seems odd. And no this isn't troll. This is an actual list I found, and if people want to try Nic Fit on a budget this may be what they jump to first.
Thoughts?
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No Hymns is correct; Hymn is garbage here unless youre straight GB, which you should never be.Quote:
Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack
Is it actually just fine as a starting list? I would consider using it if it isQuote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
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I don't think it looks too bad. There are several of us who are moving away from Rhinos - you can read the previous dozen pages or so for more of that discussion. Basically, the beasts simply don't line up that well in current meta. Thragtusk still great, and the ratios of removal/card advantage/threats seems ok here. I do like 3 Decay, 3 Swords in my SFM list though. And Tireless Tracker I think has done well enough to deserve a spot in the "stock" lists. It's definitely not a bad list to start off with if that is all you have access to.Quote:
Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack
What SaffronOlive typically refers to as budget is too low budget. I would say that if you want to budget the manabase you need the following:Quote:
Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack
1 Bayou
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Canopy Vista
1 Godless Shrine
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
7 Mismatched art white bordered basics
That's not cheap but it's also not nearly as expensive as a blue deck.
The list itself is good enough for what it is, not what I would play but I understand why each card is there. However I wouldn't play the Sorin or the Teeg, I would instead put that money towards dual lands first. Teeg is pretty niche and Sorin is a bit too new. If you're playing on a budget it's pretty important to stick to the proven cards rather than the latest fad.
No Hymns is correct, sometimes the deck runs Hymns but it never runs all that many and you can't do it without a proper manabase. Hymn requires a very black based version and lots of DRS. Most lists are green based instead. Don't even think about Hymn without 17 shock damage free sources of black. If you want some discard to supplement Cabal Therapy go with Thoughtseize, Duress can serve as a reasonable budget substitute in the format. I've been experimenting with Tidehollow Sculler too but it's a pretty specific build where that's worth considering as your discard to supplement Therapy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
I think if you're a meta of all Delver and other midrange, then quad Rhino is still fine. I think moving down to 2-3 is probably where you want to be nowadays in a more developed, balanced metagame. Card's still good. Just not against Miracles.
My meta is just getting started. Lots of big creature decks like Eldrazi and reanimator, but Rhino probably gets outclassed there. This is purely for LGS tournaments, like FNM. Also, zero Miracles players.
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Rhino is definitely fine, especially as a budget option. It feels to me like there's a better build out there waiting to be found but Rhinos still hold their own.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
Having been present for a few local Legacy metagames forming it has been my experience that new metas trend towards uninteractive and often times combo decks. Oops All Spells, Burn, Storm, and Belcher being 4 very popular ones, and I wouldn't be surprised to see some budget Reanimators either. If that's what you're up against, and that's just a guess on my part I would probably change a few cards. Also, I would definitely have more discard in the main.Quote:
Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack
One card I'm a big fan of is Faerie Macabre, it's my go to GY hate actually because you can recur it later with Meren (though Meren has fallen out of favor) and if it's useless you can hit the opponents face with it. Actually, that's my mentality in general with this deck... I put a pretty big premium on just being able to hit the opponent using spells that have bodies attached.
Whelp. Finally got a 5-0 in a league. Beat miracles twice, infect, shardless bug and 4 color delver.
Superstars were Sorin, Lord of Innistrad, Garruk Relentless and carpet of flowers out of the board.
Gratz !Quote:
Originally Posted by jbone2016
So Planeswalkers to wreck Miracles seems like a decent strategy.Quote:
Originally Posted by jbone2016
Nice job!
To channel my inner matt: Post your list, scrub!
good job. do u stream or record your games? it is always interesting to see how people play the deck especially against different opponents/decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by jbone2016
I check twitch frequently but finding nicfit games is rare.
Currently I play Elspeth, Knight Errant. what exactly makes Sorin better? the only thing I can see is the ultimate.
Gratz bone!! Would you mind spoiling your list here?[emoji1] it's always interesting to see online results
Thanks guys for giving my list a try.
Could you precise which list you used (it moved a lot recently and you seems having do your tunnings too)?Quote:
Originally Posted by square_two
Usually, D&T and Shardless are two really good match ups. Deed do a great job and Starfield return their discard against them. You can always grind a lot of turns with just a vet or a rector playing Gandalf on the bridge, facing Gurmag and tarmo.
Reflecting about it. Heliod could be a one slot side solution against miracle. Otherwise he's too manavore from what I see (4 manas to fog a tarmo for exemple is not what we are seeking for) and works badly with Starfield (if devotion 5 enchantements (tokens include), all the tokens will die..)Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
Retreat to Emeria can be given a try I think (even if it will never be half of Assemble the legion! :D ) Even +1/+1 can be relevant to finish while Starfield is activated.
I still don't think that Bitter Blossom would be relevant in the list unless rebulding all the list around it. I often lock the game will running around 3 life points. And the life spent into bitter will be quite wasted by deed indeed... It's what I deeply think, so I won't try it. But if anyone want to show me I'm wrong, be my guest. And if it do well say it :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliq
On the other hand, I don't have any moat (and it's too expensive for my purse...) but running both could be an elegant piece of killing lock indeed.
Against miracle, since it's miracle I don't think we have a lot to focus on it for now.Quote:
Other thoughts
For what I read on several recent articles from pro players running miracles:
http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/ban-miracles/
http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/the-greatwatch/ (great to read)
in its current list, it has no real bad match up. All non favored match up end in 50/50 match up. Because it has basically answers to everything and ways to find them.
Best thing to do: pray for a strong ban (terminus or CB would be the best) for the next announcement.
So from my experience of enchant fit list, and from the opponents experience, I think we are part of the match up they do not like.
On the first, when Starfield is here, they need Council to deal with it.
Stp is almost a dead card because sacrifice and Sterling grove.
We have also answers to evrything they would put in. But a lot less deck manipulating sources. The best way to deal with them is to use their ressources on countering dangerous enchantements. Then call a Starfield and call back the previous countered friends. They are not used to this list. So they usually don't see it coming. Playing control, using baits as discard cards dragging the game further then launching the bomb and closing the round on a 1 winning game is the best line I saw until now.
But if they end up assembling counter top and find every uncurved CCM (3, 4 and 5) on top + Council... Shit happens...
Yesterday I played a local 8 players tournament. I ended 3/0 - (5/1), with a final against miracle. I'll wrote the report later on...
I'm planning on streaming soonish, but I need to get a mic that isn't actual ear cancer to listen to. I have a shitty Web cam mic at the moment and I refuse to force people to listen to that.Quote:
Originally Posted by cherson
Your voice isn't buttery enough to compensate for that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
Ahw!
keep it up. would really like to see some vids of the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
on which build are u currently, sfm if I remember correctly?
4 Veteran ExplorerQuote:
Originally Posted by cherson
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Master of the Wild Hunt
1 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 The Gitrog Monster
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Vindicate
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sylvan Library
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant
4 Heath
3 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
sb::
2 Thoughtseize
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Gaze of Granite
2 Tsunami
2 Pithing Needle
1 Celestial Purge
1 Krosan Grip
Still debating -Nissa -Gitrog +Thrag #2 +Nightmare.
From what I know of, we have a whopping three Eldrazi Stompy players, an Infect, a Mono Black Reanimator, a Merfolk or two, and a Belcher. I noticed the other list posted here runs Elspeth, Sun's Champion. Is that better than Sorin in my list? What changes should I make before proxying up this deck?Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
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So here is my little report from yesterday 8 players tournament.
I ended 3/0 (5/0/1)
The list:
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Bayou
2 Plains
2 Swamp
3 Forest
3 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Chromanticore
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Doomwake Giant
1 Eternal Witness
2 Eidolon of Blossoms
4 Academy Rector
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Liliana of the Veil
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Eldrazi Conscription
1 Faith's Fetters
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Oppression
2 Dead Weight
2 Starfield of Nyx
2 Sterling Grove
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 1 Choke
SB: 1 Curse of Death's Hold
SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 Humility
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
SB: 1 Seal of Primordium
Round 1: D&T 2/0
Game 1, I'm on the play
After a first mulligan, I kept a greedy hand with top, cabal, GSZ, deed, a swamp and a scrub.
T1 top / him ghost quarter Aether vial.
T2 upkeep top, plains, tower and another top. I land scrub for a blind cabal on Thalia. He had 3 revoker 2 Karakas and a cavern.
He put a Karakas and a revoker (I used top to draw) on top.
After that, he put a stoneforge on batterskull then Mangara that get my oblivion ring before being able to be used. And I've got slammed until reaching like 5 life and get a forest. A cabal got ride of 3 revoker in hand, and vet launched me back in the game. Pernicious reset at his turn with Mangara back.
But eventually Mangara would never be active. Batterskull neither. I had rector on top but used other non shuffling solution (faith's fetters, pernicious, doomwake giant..) before ultimately launch him into starfield for the win.
He surrender at 30 life against 6.
Side Humility, Seal of primordium and Curse of death hold in. 1 Eidolon, Lili and oppression out.
Game 2
I started with 3 cabal in hand GSZ and Vet. Don't remember well the rest. He start with land vial. I blind cabal revoker: he don't have any but lands and a flicker.
So flicker got kicked out next turn. Another land is the unknown card.
We got within the time limit when he concede while I was rectoring a Curse killing is deed revoker...
I think my opponnent did a few mistakes (like playing Mangara without keeping a karakas back up). And didn't get his side. But I had the match up.
Round 2: Junk
I was on the draw
G1
He got me on the first with seize on GSZ then HTT on both top and starfield.
I didn't draw any good enought answer (Lily edict, etc..).
Side: 2 Leyline in, Seal, Humility and Curse in ; Oppression and Lily out, Chromanticore, 1 Eidolon and O ring out.
G2
I don't remember well, but I ended locking him into Starfield/deed to concession.
G3
I started with Leyline.
At a moment I saw that I was going to draw the Eldrazi Conscription on courser (protected by grove) while a cabal reveal me a waste and an HTT.
So next turn I sac a vet or rector with a cabal on myself droping the conscription.
A few turns later, with an active starfield on the field, I bring back conscription on Leyline. He was at 12 or 14, there was too much to handle.
Round 3: Miracles
I think I was on the play.
Only one struggling game.
I had like top, vet, cabal, deed and lands (a basic, a fetch and tower?) in hand. I land top.
I quickly saw that he was on miracle (T1 toundra top).
I upkeep top and then successfully blind cabal on brainstorm. He had fow, ponder and monastery with lands.
He cast a counterbalance. Full tap.
I top to get a land, then try a vet. He put top on top to counter it. It was what I was hoping, cause vet is not at his best against miracle.
Then I had 2 rector, a tower, a deed and a starfield in hand. He had like 3 cards in hand.
I don't remember well, but my strat was to waste his ressources then caste a safe Starfield/rector. So I started with deed. He used 2 fetch without being able to manage it with counterbalance. Then after a draw go I sac it EoT to 2, wreching his counterbalance and making him put top on top. On my turn I cast a Rector, tower still in hand. There was no more cabal in the grave (I think I used an Eidolon or Courser to flashback on fow). So he let it in with the intention to Stp it I think. Then with priority I put tower in play.
There was a lot of tricky situations so I don't remember everything. But I know that Doomwake and dead weight managed his mentor. He casted and snap casted council judgement (the best card against the list). Once on starfield, a second on chromanticore (in both situations, sterling was there). When I casted the second starfield, he had one or two cards in hand. He activated top (eated by deed in response) to counter it. but misplaced his cards and show me a fetch instead of a fow (either way, I was expecting fow and had a GSZ to witness next turn).
I managed a Jace with O Rin, another with creatures. An instant terminus make him loose his (2nd or 3d) top but delay me a few turns with a misplay of mine.
At the entrance into additionnal turns, I hit him with enchantements to death.
Conclusion and thoughts
First of all, I was really happy to win miracles !
As it's miracles, depends on prayers. Some times he will find any CCM you cast on counter top and will manage the rest with fow and council's judgement. Some times he will not find his one slot and rare ccm.
Obviously, early cabal are a strong asset here. As is (recursive) deed and grove /enchant creatures. Dead weight manage any of his creatures. Faith's fetters and O ring: Jace.
So he has answers to everything, but so do we. We have at both CA engine (he has Jace, predict and Snap, 2 of each I think. We have Starfield, Eidolons, deed, vet and GSZ), and tutors/deck manipulating (he has brainstorm, ponder, top, we have also top, GSZ, witness, Rector and grove).
So we have to adapt and be sometimes the control deck, sometimes the aggro one.
Vet are symetric at first sight. But when you have a tower or a deed in play, you can choose when you want tou use it. Cracking a vet when ready to resolve a counterbalance, or draw for an instant speed terminus, etc will make him either way loose his top or terminus, miss his CB or don't have any extra lands.
Miracle use to drag the late game. But I do think we have better answers to his finishers than he has to ours.
And we have a big edge: we know very well miracles, but he don't know what to expect from the list.
If we both draw normally (so, if he don't see every and each of his one slot the moment he needs it), I think we can have the first. And overedge him with some surprise will not let him surrender/came back early enought for the game 2.
With Eldritch moon extension, I'm tempted to test to replace new'mrakul for Eldrazi conscription and add From Beyond (the eldrazi enchant, token engine and tutoring eldrazi).
As a big finisher and planeswalkers ultimate stealer mostly.
It can sound very clanky. But I need to give it a try ^^
I do love that Chromanticore. Is that a fun-of or an actual meta consideration?
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Sweet! Congrats Jbone, I look forward to a report :)
@Ulysse, I really liked the faith's fetters because it doesn't die to decay or our own deeds when we kill TNN or Mentor etc, it gains you life, and when you use it on their planeswalker if they play another your fetters ends up in the bin to be used with starfield, why did you change one for an O-ring? Is it just so you can have a cheaper version, or am I missing something?
Ahh right, Eldrazi. I forgot that one is pretty popular too since most of the pieces are cheap and Modern/Standard converts have them. I've always found Eldrazi to be a pretty tough match with Rhinos, they just don't line up well against Reality Smasher.Quote:
Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack
Elspeth is very good against Eldrazi but getting to 6 mana can be challenging.
You just said rhino doesn't line up well against smasher, neither do 3 1/1s against trample. if you are using her for her -3 then you are better off with something else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
Maybe Sorin is the best choice because of his card advantage? Idk I'll just stick to SaffronOlive's exact list and make things easy for myself.
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Elspeth beats a Reality Smasher, she comes down, you +1 and she's at 5 loyalty. Reality Smasher hits, you block with one token, she takes 4 damage down to 1. Next turn you +1 again and now you have 5 1/1's with her at 2. Smasher attacks and you trade. End result is Smasher dies, you still have Elspeth, and you saved 10 damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio