yea man it really sucks using mana when the opponent cant win the game.
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yea man it really sucks using mana when the opponent cant win the game.
Except that there are plenty of reasons to use Runed Halo over CoP:Green.Quote:
Originally Posted by OldOD
A) Runed Halo is far more flexible. CoP:G stops Vengeine, Progenitus.... Tarmogoyf?
Runed Halo stops: Vengevine, Progenitus, Tendrils, Charbelcher, Necrotic Ooze, etc... You know, problem decks for Zoo.
B) CoP:G uses mana every single turn. Runed Halo uses mana once. This is especially important because they get to attack for 0 mana. If they have 4 Vengevines (entirely likely) you need 4 mana every single turn completely devoted to stopping Vengevines. This is especially important if they vomit on turn 3 after your turn 2 CoP:G and you have no mana up. Or when they have 4 Vengevines and you're stuck on 3 mana. Or they Wasteland your mana. Runed Halo stops them cold as soon as you play it. Runed Halo lets you continue to play threats, removal and burn. CoP:G requires you to devote all of your mana to it.
this wasnt about what was the better board card, it was about what is better against survival. runed halo stops one way of them beating you, name vengevine and they get progenitus, or just trygon predator (which you can remove obviously, but its there, progenitus is the more important one) if you name progenitus they can roll you over with vengevines, or even go the jitte aggro strategy, cop green stops all of that, who cares about investing mana into it, they cant win. you can keep playing the cards you like and losing, ill play my cards and keep winning.
Double white for what it does, doesn't seem to viable. I would never even consider (in this legacy metagame which is already quite broad) using COP Green or Runed Halo. Zoo has so many strong and amazing board options right now available to it that I find myself having to cut sideboard options that I really want to play but can't because of the tight space. Unless were talking about a small and narrow local metagame, I honestly can't see considering either of these two foregoing cards as adept sideboard options.
Moreover, has anybody seen a Zoo deck top 8 or even have a good finish at any large scale legacy event in say the last year with Burning Tree Shaman in it maindeck?
While I don't approve of the Halo idea in this deck either...Quote:
Originally Posted by OldOD
How the hell are you developing a board position while you're holding mana open every turn for a CoP? If you have to hold up 4-5 mana a turn to stop their vines against stifles, wastes, or what have you... Are you trying to deck them?
What if you're against GW Survival, sure, stops their vines, goyfs, knights... they still have qasali and can just Loyal Retainer out Iona or Emrakul.
That's the thing. Legacy is becoming much, much less broad. Look at the most recent SCG5k:Quote:
Originally Posted by Demonic_Attorney
Top 16:
4 UG Madness
2 Ooze Survival
1 GW Survival
3 Nelson Rock
1 ANT
1 Dreadstill
1 Sneak n Show
1 Welder Reanimator
1 Countertop
1 Goblins
Splitting them out:
Bad MUs
7 Vengevine Decks
1 ANT
1 Sneak n Show
Split MUs:
1 Countertop
1 Welder Reanimator
Good MUs:
1 Goblins
3 Nelson Rock
1 Dreadstill
If you're ignoring Survival decks because you don't think they're part of the metagame... You need something to stop Vengevine. There is no question about that. If you don't, you're giving up almost 50% of your MUs before you sit down. Vengevine is literally 44% of the top 16. How are you dealing with that?
Check it, another time, Vengevival is a huge part of the SCG metagame.
http://i.imgur.com/wD6jX.jpg
If one were running zoo, what would they be boarding to combat a bad matchup that has a Jund-esque grip on the field?
First off, even if I accept what you are saying about a narrow metagame and Vengevine/ Survival being the best and most played deck, I still would not adopt the approach of playing COP Green or Runed Halo as answers as there are much better cards Zoo can play in this regard.Quote:
Originally Posted by CorpT
Secondly, Star City is one store running an event in one particular area. Although I am sure their are people that travel from far to go to SCG legacy events, I definitely know more people travel to GP events especially when they are legacy as the legacy GP in Madrid less then a year ago was the biggest sanctioned tournament in magic history with a very broad metagame. Look at the last GP in Columbus in August and its metagame and tell me that is not broad?
GP Columbus Day 2 Metagame Breakdown
Zoo 20
Bant 16
CounterTop 12
Merfolk 10
Goblins 10
Aluren 7
Land 6
Belcher 6
ANT 5
Landstill 7
Aggro CounterTop 4
Legacy Burn 4
Survival 4
BUG 4
Junk 4
Enchantress 3
RUG 3
Doomsday 2
Dredge 2
Enlightened Tutor 2
Show and Tell 2
Sneak Attack 2
Hypergenesis 1
Faeries 1
UG Madness 1
Affinity 1
UB Thopter/Sword 1
Depths 1
Red Control 1
StifleNaught 1
Servant/Grindstone 1
The Variety of Legacy
by Blake Rasmussen
"More so than any other format, Legacy gives players options. With a card pool that spans the entire history of Magic, new decks and old cards are always threatening to step back into the limelight. And with the banning of Mystical Tutor, Grand Prix Columbus is one of the most diverse tournaments in terms of viable deck choices in recent memory.
A quick scan of the top tables and the Grand Prix Trial winning deck lists reveals nearly 20 viable decks.
Goblins, Merfolk and Zoo looked to be battling it out for the most popular decks among the top 50 or so tables, but they faced some steep competition from some known and unknown decks.
Reanimator, thought to be in trouble with the loss of Mystical Tutor, put up a strong showing as players were bringing anything from Iona, the Shield of Emeria to Stormtide Leviathon in play from their graveyard. Also looking to utilize the graveyard were several Dredge decks hoping to catch players without their Tormod's Crypts or Relics of Progenitus.
Noticeably absent, however, was the other primary Mystical Tutor deck besides Reanimator, Ad Nauseam, as combo players looked toward other decks. There was a smattering of Belcher, Aluren, and Dream Halls near the top in round four. Belcher tries to play a quick Goblin Charbelcher or Empty the Warrens for the quick kill, while Aluren wants to simply resolve its namesake card to infinitely bounce Parasitic Strix and Cavern Harpy. Dream Halls, a deck that has been on the fringe of playability for a while, utilizes Show and Tell – one of the most popular cards in the room not named Brainstorm or Force of Will – to play a quick Dream Halls followed by Conflux and multiple Cruel Ultimatums.
Another deck that utilizes Show and Tell is Hypergenesis, and at least one player was seen attacking an Emrakul, the Aeon's torn into his opponent's very small Merfolk.
Counterbalance decks of all shapes and sizes were also making their presence known. Most were using Jace, and most were also Bant colored. Almost all of them had Tarmogoyf to hold the fort while they locked their opponent down with the Coldsnap enchantment.
Seismic Assault/Life from the Loam decks were also eating up spots at the top tables, most of them sporting Dark Confidants and a Burning Wish sideboard.
42 Land, a recent darling of the Legacy circuit, had a number of players sitting at 4-0 early on. The combination of Life from the Loam, Explore, Manabond and friends remained popular.
A number of other decks had a few lone representatives still rocking undefeated records, including Burn, Survival Madness, Junk, and Faeries.
Unlike the last Grand Prix in Columbus, this one looks like it'll be less about one deck and more about how many decks can possibly co-exist in one room."
So you're prepping for Providence?Quote:
Originally Posted by Demonic_Attorney
I don't get it. The SCG5ks are the biggest Legacy tournaments being run in NA. They're dramatically influencing the metagame. They are being broadcast on GGSLive. They are being written about extensively.
If you choose to ignore the prevalence of Vengevine and the importance of SGC5ks, that's cool. But you're probably going to be in a vast minority. Frankly, I'd like to be prepared for Vengevine and not delude myself into thinking it won't be played or that Zoo has a good MU against it. That's why I'll be testing Runed Halo against Vengevines. You can keep your Grips in your board for Counterbalance.
I've had someone Runed Halo my Steppe Lynx before, thus it must be good.Quote:
Originally Posted by CorpT
And dit he win that game? And if he did so, was it because of the Halo or despite the Runed Halo?Quote:
Originally Posted by RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
What exactly makes Vengevine Survival such a bad match-up for Zoo? I mean we have enough ways to get rid of Survival and Vengevines are fairly easy answered with STP of PTE.
I only played the matchup once and wasn't in the best of health so I do not have very much experience against the deck. I did win (thanks to wheel of sun and moon) but my opponent wasnt that good at piloting it either.
I don't know why, you American guys don't run the big zoo version.
In Italy we run the big zoo version, and we use to top8 in more or less 100 people tournaments twice a month.
Starting from the 2 japanese lists that Saito posted on ChFi months ago, we got two lists that play very well against Vengevine and the rest of the metagame, one running bloodbraid elf, woolly thoctar and a few less early game drop, and another one running more early game drops like lavamancers and the stoneforge tools with sword of light and shadow, both with 6 exile effects maindeck and 4 KotR.
My actual list is
Maindeck:
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Noble Hierarch
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Ajani Vengeant
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Arc Trail
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
2 Sylvan Library
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Karakas
3 Plateau
1 Savannah
2 Taiga
2 Arid Mesa
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy
Sideboard
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Volcanic Fallout
2 Pithing Needle
2 Krosan Grip
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
1 Gaddock Teeg
Actually in test I'm pretty 70-30 VS UG Madness, 80-20 VS Survival Bant, 70-30 VS GW Survival, 60-40 VS Ooze survival, 60-40 VS ATS and 70-30 VS Random Survival based decks.
In tournament I'm 5-2 (games) VS UG Madness, 3-1-1 (games) VS ATS, 2-0 (games) VS Survival Bant, 2-0 (games) VS Progenitus Survival.
With this list I played 4 big tournaments and 1 local tournament:
1st - 100 players - top4, losing vs my friend with almost the same deck but with bloodbraid
2nd - 97 players - 5-1-1 9th per rating losing vs enchantress and tie with ATS
3rd - 96 players - top8, losing vs ant
4th - 106 players - top8, losing vs urb stiflenaught
5th - 35 players - 1st, never lose, neither a game.
I think that this zoo version can fit well in the actual metagame also in your country, if you would like to play it.
Bye.
Can you please explain the following numbers? Why they are in your deck, and why you ended with that amount of each card.
3 Noble Hierarch
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Ajani Vengeant
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Arc Trail
2 Sylvan Library
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
Sure, I can.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigar
3 noble hierarch - in this version you need more mana to cast higher drops like pw and 4 KotR; I tested with 4 but with 22 lands 3 are enough
2 grim lavamancer - very good but 3 are too much, because you don't have many cards to remove in your graveyard, they are more useful to keep alive tarmogoyf and KotR
2 elspeth - is the card that makes difference and destabilize the board in your favor
1 ajani - cause you can't play 3 elspeth; I was looking for another drop that can make difference in many MU, and ajani got a big impact on control MU and mirror matches, keeping tapped dual lands, creatures and so on...
3 lightning bolt - the 4th became 1 arc trail
2 arc trail - cause it's obviously good against those survival who run a lot of mana dorks. This deck has a good percentage of winning against those decks mining the opponent mana base with wasteland and killing mana dorks, so this is a card that fits perfectly in this strategy.
2 sylvan library - use to play one, but without stoneforge I need the second one, it's a good engine to spend life in excess and keep a sort of card advantage and a higher draw quality.
1 sword of light and shadow - stp and pte are the main removal of this format, a creature equipped with sword can win the game in a very few turns. It's better than jitte and sword of fire ice. Test it.
I woudn't go ajani and arc trail seems a meh to :(
But, why would you go play big zoo over traditional?
Against what matchups it's better?
against tes, survival, control or?
Well in his first post he seemed to indicate that it does well against decks with with Survival or Vengevine. Salt accordingly. =)
Does anyone have a link to Saito's big zoo lists or can you repost them here? I'd like to see what they were going for.
Big Zoo is better in this meta.
With the traditional version you can never win against survival, because you have the 2/3 at cc 1 and they got the 4/3 at cc 0.
In big zoo you can play more stp/pte, cause you need less creatures in play to win, they are bigger than traditional.
This means also that you are less afraid to see your opponent playing Rhox War Monk, or mass removal like engineered explosives, which often made 3x1 in the traditional version, and pernicious deed, card that unaffect planeswalkers.
Big zoo it's not so fast like the older, so you have a worst MU VS Goblins and Merfolks, but even not worst than 70/30 (I think the older one was 80/20), and worst MU VS ANT, nothing that you cannot adjust with the sideboard. Also the older version could win only with SB cards, so in effect nothing changed, except for that in my metagame, in 100 players, they are 2/3 ANT and 1/2 Enchantress...nothing to worry about, I think.
You got better MU against Survival based decks, rogue decks like jund and rock, landstill, jace landeed, dreadstill, faeries and bant, or in general to those who run counterbalance, explosives and pernicious.
My tests:
Bant: can win only with turbo-progenitus in 3rd/4th turn
Survival: a hard start it's always difficult to contain, but in a normal game, killing mana dorks and removing a few creatures, with the help of one qasali is quite win. Post SB we have a lot of solution like pithing needle and faerie macabre, which are not mana intensive, keeping us in condition to run our game while killing the other one.
Goblins: can win only with the perfect hand and if we draw less than 3 removal effect
Merfolks: can win only if we fall in screw or flood
Jace Landeed: an intelligent resource managment can drive you to victory easy, especially with KotR, Wastelands and Planeswalkers.
Landstill: as Jace Landeed, the only card that you wish not to see in your opponent board is humility
Dreadstill: Lock of cbtop in the 1st 2 turns and turbo-dreadnought in the 3rd is the only way he has to win, and he has to got the right drop on the top. Like 60-40.
Rock: 50/50, it depends on how you start and on how many denial he can do in the earlier game
Ant: horrible
Enchantress: quite horrible, but you can win with denial on enchanted dual lands or drawing a lot of qasali pridemage
I didn't tested yet with Team America or other decks because thay aren't played in my metagame.
I found the last Saito's article, about the Tokyo Eternal Fetsival in September, 20, but I didn't find the 1st appearance of the deck, which I think it was about July, always in Japan.
The list that won the tournament was:
* 4 Wild Nacatl
* 3 Noble Hierarch
* 2 Figure of Destiny
* 2 Grim Lavamancer
* 4 Tarmogoyf
* 4 Qasali Pridemage
* 4 Knight of the Reliquary
* 2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
* 4 Lightning Bolt
* 4 Swords to Plowshares
* 2 Path to Exile
* 1 Umezawas Jitte
* 2 Sylvan Library
* 1 Forest
* 1 Plains
* 1 Mountain
* 2 Plateau
* 2 Savannah
* 2 Taiga
* 4 Arid Mesa
* 4 Wooded Foothills
* 2 Windswept Heath
* 2 Wasteland
* 1 Karakas
* Sideboard
* 3 Pyroblast
* 3 Pyrostatic Pillar
* 2 Price of Progress
* 2 Krosan Grip
* 2 Tormods Crypt
* 1 Bojuka Bog
* 1 Red Elemental Blast
* 1 Gaddock Teeg
There were 245 players, the top8 was:
1 - Big Zoo
2 - Team America
3 - Sneak and Show
4 - Saito's Merfolk
5 - Bant
6 - ANT
7 - Merfolk monoU
8 - Elf Combo
And this was the metagame
32 Merfolk
30 Zoo
14 Bant Aggro (With Natural Order)
12 Goblins
11 Ad Nauseam Tendrils
10 Survival of the Fittest (With Loyal Retainer reanimation, with Madness)
9 Show and Tell (Hive Mind、Sneak Attack)
7 Stax (Mono-Brown、Mono-White, etc.)
6 Dredge
6 Mono Red
6 The Rock
6 Countertop ‘Goyf
5 Team America
5 White Weenie
5 G/W Aggro
5 Eva Green (With Dark Depths)
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Reanimator
4 Elves
4 Landstill
3 Enchantress
2 New Horizons
2 Aggro Loam
For sure there were less survival than today, but I repeat, I don't think it's a big problem for big zoo.
If you are interested in, the original article is there: http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...rnal-festival/
I hope you can give me more considerations about the deck after testing.
Bye.
Got a question for you Smoker. Did you test Figure of Destiny? If so how did you feel about him?
I tested with
- 1 ajani - 2 arc trail
+ 1 figure of destiny + 1 ranger of eos and the 4th lightning bolt, but I loved ranger more than figure.
I think that is a good card but not so good vs survival, cause it need so much mana to become a 4/4 and I prefer to keep mana for creatures that are bigger in any situation and removal effects. And it's more difficult to play it, if you run 3 wastelands. Maybe with only 2 wastelands it's better, but I don't ensure that is better than having 3 wastelands. Many times you simply win killing mana dorks and destroying a dual of the right colour leaving the opponent with some problem, if you run only 2 of them it's difficult to draw 1 but if you play 3 it's not so impossible to cast 2.