[Deck] Dredge

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Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus

My problem with Gorian is that he makes us a turn slower at the least against non blue decks and blue decks withfew counters.Against combo and nic fit this can be deadly.
Also with that many dredgers, starting off with ddd is viable too.

Im gonna test Hollywood's list at my local tourney with a different board,going to comment on possible changes later.

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I've put in more than my fair share of testing with dredge in all of its incarnations and I haven't seen anything that would lead me to believe Phantasmagorian is slower in regards to your fundamental turn, altho' DDDing game 1 obviously gives them first mover advantage and it can seem like that.

We're pretty much already cold to Storm, it doesn't matter how much you try they are comming out on top in the match up. I think it's more important just to be unshakably good at the match ups where we just refuse to play Magic and roll them unfairly.

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

I've put in more than my fair share of testing with dredge in all of its incarnations and I haven't seen anything that would lead me to believe Phantasmagorian is slower in regards to your fundamental turn, altho' DDDing game 1 obviously gives them first mover advantage and it can seem like that.

We're pretty much already cold to Storm, it doesn't matter how much you try they are comming out on top in the match up. I think it's more important just to be unshakably good at the match ups where we just refuse to play Magic and roll them unfairly.

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LED dredge is not cold to storm. It is a much closer match than you may think. However giving a storm player a free turn by DDDing will leave you cold to those decks I suppose.

Also, firestorm is not currently being played because it is an uncounterable discard outlet(that is just an added perk). It is being played because of the creatures in the meta: delver, Lavamancer, stoneforge mystic. Also, because of the decks being played right now like maverick and affinity. All these creatures are cheap, powerful, and small enough to get eaten by firestorm. With gofy being played less and less, knight reliquary is the biggest creature we usually face.

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

Mental Misstep may have been the reason Firestorm and Phantasmagorian became the outlets of choice but the actual number of counterspells that targeted Putrid Imp then and target Putrid Imp now are for all intents and purposes the same because most aggro-control and control decks were cutting Force of Will and/or Daze for Mental Misstep and the hate for Firstorm and Phantasmagorian was of the Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus variety then as well, so the counterspells were equivalent, the hate was worse and Phantasmagorian based Dredge was still the better deck.

@Jares

Besides Phantasamgorian being better than Putrid Imp game 1 vs everything and Putrid Imp's ability to "play around" Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progentius being less relevant vs the current hate people are actually playing in the DTB, the main difference is that you can't directly compare every situation between having drawn a Putrid Imp, a Land and resolved a Putrid Imp without having your land Wastelanded and having drawn and discarded or dredged into a Phantasmagorian. Putrid Imp is much slower, more conditional, resource intensive and exposes the deck to both countespells and Wastelands while Phantasmagorian is dredgeable, costless, counterproof and a redundant Dread Return target vs Surgical Extracion on Golgari-Grave Troll.

Phantasmagorian is an inevitable, free discard mechanic built directly into the way the deck works, while Putrid Imp is an unnecessary vulnerability that's only better when you draw it, cast it, resolve it, don't get your land Wastelanded and the opponent is playing with and drew into Tormod's Crypt or Relic of Progentius. Do you guys not see how incredibly conditional Putrid Imp is just to make the deck a "little better" vs Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus in exchange for making it a lot worse vs everything else? I agree Putrid Imp allows you to "deviate" from DDD, but game 1 you can't know whether or not deviating from DDD on turn 1 is correct, because not playing Putrid Imp in order to DDD automatically puts you a fundamental turn behind Phantasmagorian and playing Putrid Imp blindly risks counterspells and Wastelands for absolutely no reason but a second turn Cephalid Coliseum that could've been a Wasteland or Stifle proof Breakthrough.

Phantasmagorian never "forces" interaction even vs. Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus, assumming your opponent resolve either before you activate a dredged Phantasmagorian you can just decline to activate him. You'd either have to be intentionally misplying the deck or he'd have to top deck it after you double activated it for it to really matter IMO.

As far as Duress is concerned, the only decks that play Duress beat Dredge anyway, which are pretty much Storm and Reanimator, and you can always choose to play vs. Storm game 2. If people start playing Enchantress, then I'll worry about it.

And finally Putrid Imp does jack shit from the graveyard by itself, Phantasmagorian always gives you options by itself and allows you to keep hands you otherwise couldn't by the nature of it just being in your deck. You are going to have more than your fair share of games opening hands without lands or hands without business where Phantasmagorian always performs regardless of whether or not you draw it etc. etc. etc.

Edit: Forgot it's superior at chain dredging.

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I honestly wasn't arguing for Putrid Imp, or for any card for that matter. But it seems to me that we'll be going in circles if we continue this way, as I've found none of what has been discussed so far to be conclusive. It's difficult to progress with an evaluation of things if statements are being thrown around without backing it up with sound reasoning.

Maybe a head-to-head comparison will help, as it would allow us to compare the two cards side by side:

• Discarding > PImp: one at a time; Phant: three at a time. Edge: PImp.
• Ichorid Fodder > Edge: Draw (PImp might actually have the slight edge, as it's much easier to decide to exile a PImp rather than a Phant. Seems negligible though).
• Warm Body for DR/Therapy Fodder > PImp is a 1-CMC creature; Phant will require a DR to get into play. Edge: PImp.
• As a DR Target > PImp: 2/2 Flying; Phant: 6/6. Edge: Phant.
• Dependencies > PImp: Land; Phant: discard phase (having 8 cards) or dredging it into the graveyard. Edge: Draw (both dependencies have advantages/disadvantages).
• Weakness > PImp: Counterspells, Wasteland; Phant: Discard Effects. Edge: Phant (because counterspells are much more common).
• Ability to deviate from the primary line of play > PImp: can always opt to DDD; Phant: will always have to DDD, unless a dependency on another discard outlet is established. Edge: PImp.
• Ability to choose to be "on-the-draw" or "on-the-play" > PImp: can choose either; Phant: will have to choose to be on the draw (not being on the draw essentially grants a timewalk for the opponent; note that your opponent will have control over these choices 50% of the time). Edge: PImp.

The comparisons above are based on the points that you've raised, and a few that I've previously noted. In summary, we have 2 draws, 2 in favor of Phant, and 4 in favor of PImp. I believe that these comparisons also need to be weighted, though, so this is, by no means, a reflection of whether or not PImp or Phant is better or worse - it just shows that PImp has the upper hand based on the number of considerations presented. Do let us know if there are any other considerations that may have been missed.

Kind Regards,
jares

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

Mental Misstep may have been the reason Firestorm and Phantasmagorian became the outlets of choice but the actual number of counterspells that targeted Putrid Imp then and target Putrid Imp now are for all intents and purposes the same because most aggro-control and control decks were cutting Force of Will and/or Daze for Mental Misstep and the hate for Firstorm and Phantasmagorian was of the Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus variety then as well, so the counterspells were equivalent, the hate was worse and Phantasmagorian based Dredge was still the better deck.

@Jares

Besides Phantasamgorian being better than Putrid Imp game 1 vs everything and Putrid Imp's ability to "play around" Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progentius being less relevant vs the current hate people are actually playing in the DTB, the main difference is that you can't directly compare every situation between having drawn a Putrid Imp, a Land and resolved a Putrid Imp without having your land Wastelanded and having drawn and discarded or dredged into a Phantasmagorian. Putrid Imp is much slower, more conditional, resource intensive and exposes the deck to both countespells and Wastelands while Phantasmagorian is dredgeable, costless, counterproof and a redundant Dread Return target vs Surgical Extracion on Golgari-Grave Troll.

Phantasmagorian is an inevitable, free discard mechanic built directly into the way the deck works, while Putrid Imp is an unnecessary vulnerability that's only better when you draw it, cast it, resolve it, don't get your land Wastelanded and the opponent is playing with and drew into Tormod's Crypt or Relic of Progentius. Do you guys not see how incredibly conditional Putrid Imp is just to make the deck a "little better" vs Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus in exchange for making it a lot worse vs everything else? I agree Putrid Imp allows you to "deviate" from DDD, but game 1 you can't know whether or not deviating from DDD on turn 1 is correct, because not playing Putrid Imp in order to DDD automatically puts you a fundamental turn behind Phantasmagorian and playing Putrid Imp blindly risks counterspells and Wastelands for absolutely no reason but a second turn Cephalid Coliseum that could've been a Wasteland or Stifle proof Breakthrough.

Phantasmagorian never "forces" interaction even vs. Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus, assumming your opponent resolve either before you activate a dredged Phantasmagorian you can just decline to activate him. You'd either have to be intentionally misplying the deck or he'd have to top deck it after you double activated it for it to really matter IMO.

As far as Duress is concerned, the only decks that play Duress beat Dredge anyway, which are pretty much Storm and Reanimator, and you can always choose to play vs. Storm game 2. If people start playing Enchantress, then I'll worry about it.

And finally Putrid Imp does jack shit from the graveyard by itself, Phantasmagorian always gives you options by itself and allows you to keep hands you otherwise couldn't by the nature of it just being in your deck. You are going to have more than your fair share of games opening hands without lands or hands without business where Phantasmagorian always performs regardless of whether or not you draw it etc. etc. etc.

Edit: Forgot it's superior at chain dredging.

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I remember that I've responded to this discussion before, and I would like to quote that response to help usher the discussion progressively:

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Originally Posted by jares

I like that it seems that you've dedicated a lot of time to test and research on the points that you've stated, and that it sounds like you've become comfortable with your current findings. In fact, I agree with the points that you've raised regarding the strengths of using Phantasmagorian, and have strongly considered applying these to the list that I'd like to play.

I would like to suggest, though, that we hold off on labeling certain things to be either superior or inferior unless we can present undeniable proof and undisputed results of our claims. Like I said, at the end of the day, we are all entitled to our opinion, but no one can argue with results - something that 4eak's list has already accomplished.

I did some research on 4eak's winning list, and found some interesting information that could help objectify this discussion. I searched http://www.starcitygames.com/ for the list of Dredge decks that have placed relatively well ever since 4eak won last 2011-09-11, and found the following results:

• After 2011-09-11, there have been 5 SCG-sponsored tournaments where Dredge placed relatively well (21st being the least notable rank).
• In those 5 tournaments, there have been 6 Dredge decks that have placed relatively well (with ranks of 4th, 4th, 4th, 10th, 11th, and 21st).
• All the 6 Dredge decks that have placed well during that period did NOT use Phantasmagorian, but did use Discard Dorks. It's also worth noting that, while all 6 decks used Putrid Imp, only one of those decks used Tireless Tribe.
• Since the metagame changed after the banning of Mental Misstep last 2011-10-1, there has been no record of a "Hybrid Dredge" deck placing well. The latest of these SCG-sponsored tournaments was just last week (2012-01-08), so it would be fair to say that the metagame in that tournament is similar (if not identical) to the current metagame that you might be referring to.

Based on these findings, it would be fallacious to say that Hybrid Dredge is not doing well in the current metagame (as we cannot find conclusive data to support that claim). It would be foolish, though, to say that using Discard Dorks is an inferior way of attacking the current metagame, as it is clear that this method is still effective in at least taking Dredge to a Top-4 finish (which it achieved thrice).

Kindly note that the data that I've gathered is fairly limited, as it is only based on the results available from SCG. As much as it cannot be used to generalize what we believe to be true across all existing metagames, I believe that it is surely enough to show that we should not be hasty in dismissing Discard Dorks as inferior in addressing the current metagame (at least for now).

Again, all I'm suggesting is that we hold off on labeling certain things to be either superior or inferior unless we can present undeniable results - we'll all eventually benefit from this sense of objectivity, not just in developing the Dredge archetype, but also in how we construct and play our decks.

Any available information that could help support the effectiveness of Hybrid Dredge in addressing the current metagame is surely welcome, as I have also been very much interested in developing this version of Dredge ever since I saw 4eak's winning list.

Kind Regards,
jares

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Cheers,
jares

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Originally Posted by Davran

I don't have access to LED and likely won't any time soon...so I am very interested in developing a solid LED-less list. That said, I like the list and will probably try it out myself when I get my hands on some Faithless Lootings.

I am wondering though why you chose to go up to the 16th land? My current pre-DKA list runs 15 (3x Citadel) and I've rarely had land problems. It seems to me that the extra Citadel might actually be your 61st card, not the additional dredger. As more of a general comment, wizards really needs to print a gold land that doesn't bolt us every time we use it (just a little wishful thinking!).

Also, how as no Dread Return/target in the main been working out for you? While I don't often win a game 1 that way, I do sometimes need Flame-kin Zealot to close against faster decks when giving them another turn isn't an option.

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I like that you pointed out that my 61st card might actually be the 4th Citadel... that actually made me think that I might be able to go down to 60 cards by cutting the Citadel (and putting-in the Darkblast). I'll try and test to see if that might make the list a bit more tight. I originally played the 16th land because I wanted to maximize being able to draw a Gold Land in my opening hand, given that I increased the number of cards that require a Gold Land by adding Faithless Looting (though the count was really just increased by 1 :tongue:). I also figured that increasing the land count could also help with possibly flashing-back a Faithless Looting in grind-out games, and so far, it's a side-effect has been surprisingly pleasant. Still, I might benefit more from tightening the list to 60 cards though.

Regarding DR in the main, I've become more and more comfortable with not having it there. I still find that I definitely need it in the SB for particular match-ups, specifically, in the match-ups where I'll be able to win instantly by bringing an FKZ or Iona (or any other DR target) into play. For reference, I used to have 2 DR (1 FKZ and 1 Sphinx) in the main, then it went down to 1 DR (no DR targets). Both these previous iterations have led me to relative success - the success of going DR-less in the main remains to be seen. I'll find out soon enough in the following weekend.

Cheers,
jares

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Originally Posted by joemauer

LED dredge is not cold to storm. It is a much closer match than you may think. However giving a storm player a free turn by DDDing will leave you cold to those decks I suppose.

Also, firestorm is not currently being played because it is an uncounterable discard outlet(that is just an added perk). It is being played because of the creatures in the meta: delver, Lavamancer, stoneforge mystic. Also, because of the decks being played right now like maverick and affinity. All these creatures are cheap, powerful, and small enough to get eaten by firestorm. With gofy being played less and less, knight reliquary is the biggest creature we usually face.

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It's relative, as far as i'm concerned Storm is one of the only archetypes that has a definitely positive game 1 vs Dredge regardless of whether or not you are on the play or on the draw, altho' obviously being on the draw decreases your win percentages vs Storm in favor of increasing it vs. u.dec and we both know which is a more relevant part of the metagame.

@Jares, I think the main problem is that there is way too much theory crafting about Dredge and not enough playing with it, the deck is very difficult to understand mechanically, more so than Storm, one of the cheapest decks to build and practically no one bothers to play post-board games with it. It pretty much leads to every one making play mistakes, the majority of players being scrubs and people getting caught up in discussing "power overwhelming" situations when they should be discussing how to play around card X with hand Y and graveyard state Z. There is so much more to Phantasmagorian and what it does for the deck than Putrid Imp, it's no where near as linear as that list you posted and I think it really shows how little the Extended Dredge crowd understands really subtle aspects of the deck like how the presence of Phantasmagorian in your deck - not in your hand - makes entire hands keepable that you'd have to mulligan otherwise and a ton of other stuff I don't have the time to explain.

It's not like I don't think Pimp/Tribe Dredge can't win, it's that I think it's game 1 win percentage is no where near as good as Phantasmagorian/LED vs. the field and the ability to play around Crypt is no where near as relevant now as it was then and I don't really want to get drawn into the whole "objective analysis of tournament data to prove empyrical certainties" because frankly I think those arguments are pretty inane.

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

It's relative, as far as i'm concerned Storm is one of the only archetypes that has a definitely positive game 1 vs Dredge regardless of whether or not you are on the play or on the draw, altho' obviously being on the draw decreases your win percentages vs Storm in favor of increasing it vs. u.dec and we both know which is a more relevant part of the metagame.

@Jares, I think the main problem is that there is way too much theory crafting about Dredge and not enough playing with it, the deck is very difficult to understand mechanically, more so than Storm, one of the cheapest decks to build and practically no one bothers to play post-board games with it. It pretty much leads to every one making play mistakes, the majority of players being scrubs and people getting caught up in discussing "power overwhelming" situations when they should be discussing how to play around card X with hand Y and graveyard state Z. There is so much more to Phantasmagorian and what it does for the deck than Putrid Imp, it's no where near as linear as that list you posted and I think it really shows how little the Extended Dredge crowd understands really subtle aspects of the deck like how the presence of Phantasmagorian in your deck - not in your hand - makes entire hands keepable that you'd have to mulligan otherwise and a ton of other stuff I don't have the time to explain.

It's not like I don't think Pimp/Tribe Dredge can't win, it's that I think it's game 1 win percentage is no where near as good as Phantasmagorian/LED vs. the field and the ability to play around Crypt is no where near as relevant now as it was then and I don't really want to get drawn into the whole "objective analysis of tournament data to prove empyrical certainties" because frankly I think those arguments are pretty inane.

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I guess that, amidst all the arguments pointed out for and against PImp and Phant, and given that none of those arguments seem conclusive enough (even collectively) to answer for all other debatable points, we'll really just have to wait and see if any results would support the arguments that have been noted - at the end of the day, the results are what matter most, and the results won't lie.

For now, and until a deck that uses Phant reaches the top of the metagame, the burden of proof will be on Phant to show that it's the superior choice over PImp as a discard outlet for Dredge.

Cheers,
jares

P.S. I'm prompted to do some testing on Phant using the LEDless list I'm trying to build. Seems easy enough to swap Phant for PImp on that list.

Empirical data is pretty much gold, in my opinion. Empirical data is an experimented conclusion, what else could you ask for? The decks topped for a reason; while some could have been a fluke, it's tough to dismiss cards/strategies/mechanics that recur in builds that consistently place.. The only argument I see is, with the printing of Faithless Looting, dredge is in a current state of flux until we determine how to properly abuse it.

Matthew

Ok, after 2 pages of discussion, we've reached the same conclusion:

Putrid Imp vs Phantasmagorian -> Metagame dependant choice.

You'll look silly when you have to DDD, and your foe opens with turn 1 Delver, or turn 1 Wild Nacatl. You'll need 1~2 turns to setup, and that kitty/insect will rape your face. You need to go off as soon as possible.

Now, if your meta is pure Stoneblade, BUG Control, and other slow stuff, go for Phantasmagorian, it's safe and works.

Putrid Imp is actually nice against Storm. If you have an Imp + Cabal Therapy opening, you're in very good position (unless they go Ritual -> Ritual -> Ad Nauseam, ofc).

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Originally Posted by jares

I honestly wasn't arguing for Putrid Imp, or for any card for that matter. But it seems to me that we'll be going in circles if we continue this way, as I've found none of what has been discussed so far to be conclusive. It's difficult to progress with an evaluation of things if statements are being thrown around without backing it up with sound reasoning.

Maybe a head-to-head comparison will help, as it would allow us to compare the two cards side by side:

• Discarding > PImp: one at a time; Phant: three at a time. Edge: PImp.
• Ichorid Fodder > Edge: Draw (PImp might actually have the slight edge, as it's much easier to decide to exile a PImp rather than a Phant. Seems negligible though).
• Warm Body for DR/Therapy Fodder > PImp is a 1-CMC creature; Phant will require a DR to get into play. Edge: PImp.
• As a DR Target > PImp: 2/2 Flying; Phant: 6/6. Edge: Phant.
• Dependencies > PImp: Land; Phant: discard phase (having 8 cards) or dredging it into the graveyard. Edge: Draw (both dependencies have advantages/disadvantages).
• Weakness > PImp: Counterspells, Wasteland; Phant: Discard Effects. Edge: Phant (because counterspells are much more common).
• Ability to deviate from the primary line of play > PImp: can always opt to DDD; Phant: will always have to DDD, unless a dependency on another discard outlet is established. Edge: PImp.
• Ability to choose to be "on-the-draw" or "on-the-play" > PImp: can choose either; Phant: will have to choose to be on the draw (not being on the draw essentially grants a timewalk for the opponent; note that your opponent will have control over these choices 50% of the time). Edge: PImp.

The comparisons above are based on the points that you've raised, and a few that I've previously noted. In summary, we have 2 draws, 2 in favor of Phant, and 4 in favor of PImp. I believe that these comparisons also need to be weighted, though, so this is, by no means, a reflection of whether or not PImp or Phant is better or worse - it just shows that PImp has the upper hand based on the number of considerations presented. Do let us know if there are any other considerations that may have been missed.

Kind Regards,
jares

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Something to add to the list, for future reference:

• Option to Mulligan > PImp: Allows mulliganning whenever necessary; Phant: every mulligan essentially counts as a timewalk. Edge: PImp.
  
  • Note that it has been suggested that the presence of Phant in the deck may increase the "keepability" (for lack of a better word) of certain opening hands.

That makes the total count to be 2 draws, 2 Phant, and 5 PImp. Again, these considerations should probably be weighted. The other "intricacies" mentioned by Final Fortune might also be worth adding to the list (as soon as he's able to find the time :laugh:).

Cheers,
jares

I'm really starting to hate Ooze.. Every Naya Fire deck runs at least one, coupled with four Green Sun's Zenith makes it a common occurrence game one. This is more than enough to tip the scale in their favor. I might take out one Golgari Thug for a Darkblast just to deal with Ooze.. though I feel like Darkblast is somewhat inadequate for this job.
Any ideas? and don't dare say he's not a threat. lol

Matthew

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Originally Posted by sambra

Regarding threat diversity in game 2 and 3, would a tranformational sideboard make sense?
Drew Levin (although not really known as a Dredge specialist) wrote about that in his Dark Ascension set review. His transformational Sideboard for a LED/Lootings (14 lands) build looked something like this:

4 Ghoultree
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker
2 Darkblast
1 Life from the Loam

I'm not sure if i like the cc2 from Tombstalker and Tarmogoyf, but maybe you could replace one or both of them with 3-4 Nether Shadow/Ashen Ghoul.

Has anyone tried something like this recently?

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Lol this is worse than his Skaab Ruinator dredge list, and that's saying a lot.

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Originally Posted by Matt

I'm really starting to hate Ooze.. Every Naya Fire deck runs at least one, coupled with four Green Sun's Zenith makes it a common occurrence game one. This is more than enough to tip the scale in their favor. I might take out one Golgari Thug for a Darkblast just to deal with Ooze.. though I feel like Darkblast is somewhat inadequate for this job.
Any ideas? and don't dare say he's not a threat. lol

Matthew

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As someone who has been dominating with punishing maverick the last few months, I can sympathize with you. Although, I am opting to play led dredge at the open tomarrow since I feel like it is currently faster than their solutions (nor did it place last open so kinda under the radar.).

So for the past two months I have had my ichorids sleeved and been fine tuning a deck for a local tournament here in town. After some research and play testing I decided to run this list.

[4x] breakthrough
[4x] Faithless Looting
[4x] Lion's Eye Diamond
[4x] Putrid Imp
[4x] Ichorid
[4x] Narcomoeba
[4x] Golgari Grave-Troll
[4x] Stinkweed Imp
[3x] Golgari Thug
[4x] Bridge from Below
[4x] Cabal Therapy
[3x] Dread Return
[1x] Flame-Kin Zealot
[1x] Sun Titan

[4x] Gemstone Mine
[4x] City of Brass
[4x] Cephalid Coliseum

//Sideboard
[3x] Firestorm
[4x] Nature's Claim
[3x] coffin purge
[2x] Ancient Grudge
[1x] angle of despair
[1x] Iona, Shield of Emeria
[1x] elesh norn grand cenobite

I went 3-1 and ended up getting second place. My matches in order were against blue/black/white artifact control 2-1, elves combo 2-1, 43 land1-2 and white black green aggro control 2-1. I found in my local group here that surgical extraction wasn't being played much but I don't think I would swap out the purges. The elesh norn was mediocre to say the least and I never got him in. Looting + led was insane and I saw a list with careful study and looting but he didn't win a single game. I think cutting careful study is the right choice along with sun titan in the main.

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Originally Posted by Isaac

So for the past two months I have had my ichorids sleeved and been fine tuning a deck for a local tournament here in town. After some research and play testing I decided to run this list.

[4x] breakthrough
[4x] Faithless Looting
[4x] Lion's Eye Diamond
[4x] Putrid Imp
[4x] Ichorid
[4x] Narcomoeba
[4x] Golgari Grave-Troll
[4x] Stinkweed Imp
[3x] Golgari Thug
[4x] Bridge from Below
[4x] Cabal Therapy
[3x] Dread Return
[1x] Flame-Kin Zealot
[1x] Sun Titan

[4x] Gemstone Mine
[4x] City of Brass
[4x] Cephalid Coliseum

//Sideboard
[3x] Firestorm
[4x] Nature's Claim
[3x] coffin purge
[2x] Ancient Grudge
[1x] angle of despair
[1x] Iona, Shield of Emeria
[1x] elesh norn grand cenobite

I went 3-1 and ended up getting second place. My matches in order were against blue/black/white artifact control 2-1, elves combo 2-1, 43 land1-2 and white black green aggro control 2-1. I found in my local group here that surgical extraction wasn't being played much but I don't think I would swap out the purges. The elesh norn was mediocre to say the least and I never got him in. Looting + led was insane and I saw a list with careful study and looting but he didn't win a single game. I think cutting careful study is the right choice along with sun titan in the main.

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The list is fine maindeck. But if you don't add 2 lands in sideboard (Tarnished Citadels) you won't be able to cast Firestorm nor Nature's Claim with success.

I'd make the sideboard like this:
3 Firestorm
3 Coffin Purge
4 Chain of Vapor/Nature's Claim
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Tarnished Citadel
1 Woodfall Primus/Iona

In addition i'd cut one coliseum in favour of undiscovered paradise or even citadel. Coliseum is an important card but we dont need too much blue mana as former version needed.

Anyone using the Gitaxian Probe as a draw effect?

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Originally Posted by Isaac

So for the past two months I have had my ichorids sleeved and been fine tuning a deck for a local tournament here in town. After some research and play testing I decided to run this list.

[4x] breakthrough
[4x] Faithless Looting
[4x] Lion's Eye Diamond
[4x] Putrid Imp
[4x] Ichorid
[4x] Narcomoeba
[4x] Golgari Grave-Troll
[4x] Stinkweed Imp
[3x] Golgari Thug
[4x] Bridge from Below
[4x] Cabal Therapy
[3x] Dread Return
[1x] Flame-Kin Zealot
[1x] Sun Titan

[4x] Gemstone Mine
[4x] City of Brass
[4x] Cephalid Coliseum

//Sideboard
[3x] Firestorm
[4x] Nature's Claim
[3x] coffin purge
[2x] Ancient Grudge
[1x] angle of despair
[1x] Iona, Shield of Emeria
[1x] elesh norn grand cenobite

I went 3-1 and ended up getting second place. My matches in order were against blue/black/white artifact control 2-1, elves combo 2-1, 43 land1-2 and white black green aggro control 2-1. I found in my local group here that surgical extraction wasn't being played much but I don't think I would swap out the purges. The elesh norn was mediocre to say the least and I never got him in. Looting + led was insane and I saw a list with careful study and looting but he didn't win a single game. I think cutting careful study is the right choice along with sun titan in the main.

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I agree with the suggestion to add a few more Gold Lands to the mix; having just 8 makes it a little less likely for you to be able to hard-cast a Faithless Looting or a Putrid Imp. I'm not sure, though, if cutting a Cephalid Coliseum would be the best thing to do, as the card also interacts well with LED. I usually go with just 3x Ichorid whenever I have a DR package in tow, so that might be a slot worth considering.

Cheers,
jares

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Calado

Anyone using the Gitaxian Probe as a draw effect?

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It has been tried before, but it's definitely sub-par VS. your other options for draw effects. The closest comparison to it would be Street Wraith, and even in that comparison it doesn't make the cut because of the following reasons:

• Street Wraith is still useful from the graveyard, while Gitaxian Probe will be a dead card in that scenario.
• Street Wraith also interacts with the lists that have diversified threats (e.g. Nether Shadow).
• As a creature, it also helps with the P/T of Troll.
• The Probe helps with Cabal Therapy, but that's really more of a "nice to have" rather than a tactical advantage - In fact, I prefer learning the metagame instead, and enjoying being able to hit an opponent with blind therapies, but that's just me :tongue:.
• Kindly note that even Street Wraith doesn't even make the cut in non-manaless builds.

I hope that helps.

Cheers,
jares

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jares

It has been tried before, but it's definitely sub-par VS. your other options for draw effects. The closest comparison to it would be Street Wraith, and even in that comparison it doesn't make the cut because of the following reasons:

• Street Wraith is still useful from the graveyard, while Gitaxian Probe will be a dead card in that scenario.
• Street Wraith also interacts with the lists that have diversified threats (e.g. Nether Shadow).
• As a creature, it also helps with the P/T of Troll.
• The Probe helps with Cabal Therapy, but that's really more of a "nice to have" rather than a tactical advantage - In fact, I prefer learning the metagame instead, and enjoying being able to hit an opponent with blind therapies, but that's just me :tongue:.
• Kindly note that even Street Wraith doesn't even make the cut in non-manaless builds.

I hope that helps.

Cheers,
jares

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Hmm, Gitaxian Probe isn't played because it's a sorcery. If it was Instant, it'd be a staple in Dredge, because the peek ability makes our Cabal Therapies much more accurate.