Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
YamiJoey
Who the hell isn't playing Counterbalance?
Some guys over in Italy apparently, to decent success too. They look like this: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...9&iddeck=85878
Personally I think they're crazy but whatever floats your boat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Piceli89
I think no good player playing a deck with interaction will ever lose to the Rip combo. Helm of Awakening is terrible garbage, so is Enlightened Tutor when your main priority is to keep your resources higher that your opponent's, i.e. the purpose of a control strategy. Entreat the Angels by itself is solid enough to not waste further slots on clunky cards. Anyways, this is basically Europe vs. America style of playing Miracle, so I guess it's a worthless argument.
I agree. RIP itself is good against a lot of decks, but Helm is way too clunky. An extra dead card when you don't have RIP can lose you the game. E Tutor is also card disadvantage that we don't need. I still can't bring myself to run RIP main deck though. It's just a dead card vs things like Goblins, DnT, Patriot, Sneak Show, the mirror, etc. that I'd rather just try to fight my way through game 1 and then bring them in game 2 against the decks that need it.
The printing of this guy makes me worried: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=549761
Merfolk is a pretty bad matchup and if they come back in force, we're going to have to adapt. We're actually one of the few decks that can actually get rid of it (Terminus, Supreme Verdict, and counter magic) though, so that's a start. We might have to start running more Supreme Verdicts.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
supachai
The printing of this guy makes me worried:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=549761
Merfolk is a pretty bad matchup and if they come back in force, we're going to have to adapt. We're actually one of the few decks that can actually get rid of it (Terminus, Supreme Verdict, and counter magic) though, so that's a start. We might have to start running more Supreme Verdicts.
3cmc is right at the top of their curve, but I don't doubt that it'll see some play. A 3/1 unblockable, hexproof Merfolk is pretty damn scary. Score one for Terminus, sorry Pyroclasm. Honestly, I'm surprised that Tidebinder Mage hasn't seen more play.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
If Merfolk starts becoming really popular, it might be time to bring back Moat or Humility. Moat doubles as an answer vs Goblins, DnT, and Jund. Humility is decent vs Goblins and helps in the Sneak Show, Reanimator, and 12-Post matchups.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
supachai
If Merfolk starts becoming really popular, it might be time to bring back Moat or Humility. Moat doubles as an answer vs Goblins, DnT, and Jund. Humility is decent vs Goblins and helps in the Sneak Show, Reanimator, and 12-Post matchups.
Not against 12-post.
Just remember they pack "repeal" & Ulamog is not a CIP effect. It is triggered upon CASTING, so goodbye humility...
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Just want to point out that a lot of the matches when you guys are saying RiP is dead, remember it is also a combo piece, and you can play Energy Field to make it relevant against anyone who is trying to kill with damage (Goblins, Elves, Merfolk, any Delver deck, etc)
The card disadvantage of E Tutor is way less of an issue than you make it out to be. When you can find cards that basically end the game, card advantage no longer matters.
I also want to point out that I seem to win the majority of my matchups against blue decks with stack interaction via Helm. Just make them fight over Jace / Entreat / etc and then slam down Helm and kill them.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ralf
Not against 12-post.
Just remember they pack "repeal" & Ulamog is not a CIP effect. It is triggered upon CASTING, so goodbye humility...
Oh damn. I didn't realize it was an "enters the battlefield" trigger. Obviously I don't play this matchup very often.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
alphastryk
Just want to point out that a lot of the matches when you guys are saying RiP is dead, remember it is also a combo piece, and you can play Energy Field to make it relevant against anyone who is trying to kill with damage (Goblins, Elves, Merfolk, any Delver deck, etc)
The card disadvantage of E Tutor is way less of an issue than you make it out to be. When you can find cards that basically end the game, card advantage no longer matters.
I also want to point out that I seem to win the majority of my matchups against blue decks with stack interaction via Helm. Just make them fight over Jace / Entreat / etc and then slam down Helm and kill them.
Yeah, but in those matchups, if I don't have my Energy Field, RIP is completely useless. If I only have Energy Field, it's not very good either since I can't cast instants/sorceries, can't fetch and I can just get Wastelanded. It brings too much inconsistency that isn't necessary to win. The thing with Helm is, I have never needed it to win. Any game that I could've won with Helm on the spot I probably could have just won eventually in a couple more turns. I don't particularly like 2 card combos that do nothing on their own.
Anyway, this topic has been argued to death. Some people prefer Helm, some don't; each has their merits. I simply prefer to win the old fashioned way.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
supachai
Oh damn. I didn't realize it was an "enters the battlefield" trigger. Obviously I don't play this matchup very often.
Yeah, but in those matchups, if I don't have my Energy Field, RIP is completely useless. If I only have Energy Field, it's not very good either since I can't cast instants/sorceries, can't fetch and I can just get Wastelanded. It brings too much inconsistency that isn't necessary to win. The thing with Helm is, I have never needed it to win. Any game that I could've won with Helm on the spot I probably could have just won eventually in a couple more turns. I don't particularly like 2 card combos that do nothing on their own.
Anyway, this topic has been argued to death. Some people prefer Helm, some don't; each has their merits. I simply prefer to win the old fashioned way.
Which is why you play SDT, Brainstorm, Jace, and Enlightened Tutor, so that you do get it.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
alphastryk
Just want to point out that a lot of the matches when you guys are saying RiP is dead, remember it is also a combo piece, and you can play Energy Field to make it relevant against anyone who is trying to kill with damage (Goblins, Elves, Merfolk, any Delver deck, etc)
The card disadvantage of E Tutor is way less of an issue than you make it out to be. When you can find cards that basically end the game, card advantage no longer matters.
I also want to point out that I seem to win the majority of my matchups against blue decks with stack interaction via Helm. Just make them fight over Jace / Entreat / etc and then slam down Helm and kill them.
Seems pretty poor to be trying to justify cards by saying they're not totally dead and have a few targets in matchups. The opportunity cost of maindeck graveyard hate is pretty high, which is why you just don't see it ever. The combo thing is the only justification, in my mind. RIP is one of the cards (along with Venser and another I can't remember), where every time I see it come up on Joe's stream I ask myself how much better or worse a Ponder or anything else would have been. It's only against specific matchups that just another cantrip to hit actual good cards doesn't seem superior, for the most part.
Basically every card in the deck is insane, 1 mana removal, or draws more insane & 1 mana removal cards. Then you have this awkward 4 mana ninja I wouldn't even play in my Modern Control deck, and random graveyard hate that doesn't cycle...it all seems a bit inbred.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cipher
Seems pretty poor to be trying to justify cards by saying they're not totally dead and have a few targets in matchups. The opportunity cost of maindeck graveyard hate is pretty high, which is why you just don't see it ever. The combo thing is the only justification, in my mind. RIP is one of the cards (along with Venser and another I can't remember), where every time I see it come up on Joe's stream I ask myself how much better or worse a Ponder or anything else would have been. It's only against specific matchups that just another cantrip to hit actual good cards doesn't seem superior, for the most part.
Basically every card in the deck is insane, 1 mana removal, or draws more insane & 1 mana removal cards. Then you have this awkward 4 mana ninja I wouldn't even play in my Modern Control deck, and random graveyard hate that doesn't cycle...it all seems a bit inbred.
I think playing a random RiP without it being a combo piece is highly suspect, and I feel like Venser is terrible, and I enjoy being focused on RiP w/ combos, but my local store metagame is almost entirely graveyard dependent, as is most of the SE US metagame.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
"It's only in the MU's where it's good that it's not bad."
So what you're saying is that we should also not play Terminus, because that's also bad in the MU's it's not good...
FTR I'm just going to concede the SDT point. I'll do some things and see if I can get some hard evidence on my side of the argument. I still think I'm right, but I'll assume that you guys know better than me.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Man, you should have been around for the hayday of Landstill. 4-color builds that played only a few 4-ofs, with so much of the deck being 1/2-ofs, and yet stabilizing was just as easy as answering pressure and dropping a Standstill. Venser is awesome. He is sometimes not a useful card to run across (early game, or when behind in CA).
Top is easily the best card in the format. Running less than 6 but more than 3 is necessary. On it's own, its a free way to Miracle at instant speed. If there were anything else that did this, I'm guessing we would play that as well.
-ABC
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cipher
Seems pretty poor to be trying to justify cards by saying they're not totally dead and have a few targets in matchups. The opportunity cost of maindeck graveyard hate is pretty high, which is why you just don't see it ever. The combo thing is the only justification, in my mind. RIP is one of the cards (along with Venser and another I can't remember), where every time I see it come up on Joe's stream I ask myself how much better or worse a Ponder or anything else would have been. It's only against specific matchups that just another cantrip to hit actual good cards doesn't seem superior, for the most part.
Basically every card in the deck is insane, 1 mana removal, or draws more insane & 1 mana removal cards. Then you have this awkward 4 mana ninja I wouldn't even play in my Modern Control deck, and random graveyard hate that doesn't cycle...it all seems a bit inbred.
I feel like everyone advocating against RIP is forgetting we play brainstorm, jace, and vendillion clique to put it back in the deck if we don't need/want it.
Also Venser fills a slot in the deck to bounce troublesome permanents with the ability to be reused via karakas. I'm pretty sure the only other cards this slot can be is detention sphere or oblivion ring, but both get abrupt decayed. The only argument for one of the latter, is if you're playing enlightened tutor.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I think you will be hard pressed to create an argument for why less than 4 tops in this deck is correct. Here is a long list of reasons why you want (4 of) top:
- Top is an instant way to setup miracles. This is huge, otherwise a lot of cards in our hand our dead, and miracles certainly have enough power to warrant the design constraint of being able to cast them properly.
- Top also sets up miracles, but making sure you don't draw them.
- Top is not only useful, but powerful, in literally every matchup. The same cannot be said about pretty every other card in the deck (except Brainstorm, because it's Brainstorm).
- As an example of the above, when have you ever wanted to side top out? If your answer was never, then you're doing it right.
- Top is useful at every point in the game. This is also something that I find to be great about the card, which is not always true of every other card. Top is certainly going to help me early game when I need to find that swords to not die to a delver, or late game when I need to search for a win condition to end the game.
- Top increases the consistency of you finding every other card in your deck. And not only that, it's by a huge margin. Brainstorm is sure great, but top over several turns lets you see way more cards than any other card. This generates a tremendous advantage. Especially post board when you want to look for hate cards in particular.
- Related to the above is that because of this, top ends up being the most powerful engine we have in the game (besides an active Jace, but he's significantly more awkward to cast and he's easier to interact with). I notice that every game where I have a top that my deck is much stronger, because I can find the cards I need when I need them.
- Multiple tops are very rarely bad, and in general multiple tops are even preferred. There's a reason when I play against blue decks they will try and make me discard a top, or force of will it, or decay it while tapping--Having 4 ensures that even if your opponent can answer one, you have a higher chance of seeing another. Also, additional tops create better counterbalance locks, and it's pretty easy to filter away a second top if you happen to find one.
- Top can hide your hand, which is very relevant against decks playing discard or gitaxian probe (this really is most noticeable in the combo matchup, when they can't play with perfect information).
Anyway, most people know these things already, and I'm sure there's more that I missed. Considering all of the advantages that top brings to gameplay, I would never want to run less than 4 in this deck. That said, I'd still be very interested in hearing your reasoning for running less than 4 tops when you're able to formulate your ideas better after playing some more games.
I think something else to consider about RIP is not only how many decks does it help you against, but how much does it help you against them? How much does it hurt you against the other decks where this is a dead card? Really, what are the decks that we need the most help against, and is RIP helping us cover our weaker match-ups? How often do we expect to see those weak matchups? Is there anything else that might be strong against those decks, but be more versatile?
For example, counterspell is useful against literally every in the format, but that's certainly not a good argument that it should always be played (nor in what number(s) either). There are a lot more things to consider than just "is this card useful against decks being played right now"? Note that right now I'm not trying to argue for or against the card, but rather just mentioning that it might be useful to take a bit of a different approach when evaluating the strength of the card.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kaosjr
I feel like everyone advocating against RIP is forgetting we play brainstorm, jace, and vendillion clique to put it back in the deck if we don't need/want it.
Also Venser fills a slot in the deck to bounce troublesome permanents with the ability to be reused via karakas. I'm pretty sure the only other cards this slot can be is detention sphere or oblivion ring, but both get abrupt decayed. The only argument for one of the latter, is if you're playing enlightened tutor.
But Venser isn't actually dealing with the permanent. I don't think this deck needs a slot dedicated to "bouncing" permanents, although you seem to think it does. It's simply delaying, for a turn, maybe two, a problematic card for you during a game. I would, in general, prefer to have Oring/Sphere most of the time, but even then I find these clunky. In fact, my preference is usually counterspell, which is certainly another viable alternative as a catch-all answer (which is really the slot I think you're trying to justify Venser as filling). It doesn't answer something in play, but it certainly can prevent things from ever entering play in a lot of scenarios, while also being useful for greatly improving the amount of cards you have for stack control.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
About Venser:
Venser is clunky. Until you get to late mid, early late game. Then? Powerhouse. He does pretty much anything you need except win. Bounce any non-land card, remove any spell from the stack, and this includes the uncounterable cards such as A. Decay, and that's a pretty powerful effect imo. Plus, he's at best a 2-of, but most of us that play him use him as a singleton. He's clunky here like B. Wish is clunky in Storm. Acceptably so.
-ABC
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Secretly.A.Bee
About Venser:
Venser is clunky. Until you get to late mid, early late game. Then? Powerhouse. He does pretty much anything you need except win. Bounce any non-land card, remove any spell from the stack, and this includes the uncounterable cards such as A. Decay, and that's a pretty powerful effect imo. Plus, he's at best a 2-of, but most of us that play him use him as a singleton. He's clunky here like B. Wish is clunky in Storm. Acceptably so.
-ABC
But that's just my point: bouncing a permanent or return a spell is not equal to answering that card. Not close by a long shot. Like, by the time you venser an abrupt decay to somebody's hand, you don't think they don't have the mana to just recast it? Unless you have Karakas out, I just don't see how spending 4 mana to deal with one card for only a single turn (maybe not even that, maybe they can just recast their spell) is ever worth the card. And even if you do have Karakas, this seems like too much durdling for so little gain. I guess you could get some people on a Show and Tell, but if that's the case I'd rather just play Oblivion Ring or Detention Sphere.
I mean hell, I found my 4th Jace to be too clunky, and I certainly wouldn't want Venser over Jace in almost every circumstance.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Valtrix
Like, by the time you venser an abrupt decay to somebody's hand, you don't think they don't have the mana to just recast it?
Unless they are tapped out and you are about to win on the spot, you don't Venser their Abrupt Decay. Just Venser the Abrupt Decay's target, that's actual CA and not just delay. There are plenty of times though where even delaying them a turn allows you to just win on the spot. I've bounced a Deed when I was winning with Angels the next turn. I've bounced a land in response to Infernal after they've cracked LED. FoW feels so amazing to bounce... yo bro, got another Blue card ya don't want? Bouncing Liliana at any point in time feels great (whether it's in response to their hellbent +1 or whether it's the turn before she ultimates).
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Valtrix
I think something else to consider about RIP is not only how many decks does it help you against, but how much does it help you against them?
I would say that it varies from a little to a ton. Against Dredge, Reanimator, and Oops All Spells it can just win the game. While the powerlevel of RIP against GY based decks isn't anything to scoff at (especially with the return of Reanimator), we aren't particularly weak against those decks regardless. Against ANT, Jund, BUG, Nic Fit, and random Punishing Fire/Loam/Deathrite shenanigans it goes a long way, but doesn't completely lock them out by any means.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Valtrix
How much does it hurt you against the other decks where this is a dead card?
It probably depends somewhat on whether you want to run Energy Field (MD or SB). Like alphastryk said, in most of the MUs where you don't need GY hate of any sort then Energy Field is usually pretty good. This includes Elves, Affinity, Goblins, Fish, UWR, MUD, and probably some more. Energy Field is basically good against pretty much any deck that attacks with creatures and doesn't have Abrupt Decay.
It's also worth noting that against some decks (Goblins, Elves, and Fish for example), it is entirely possible to raw dog an Energy Field without RIP and have it stick for multiple turns. They have two options really... drawing Wasteland and you having to discard down during clean up. They only run four Wastelands and have no library manipulation and you can fetch basics to prep. If you are having to discard then you are probably rolling in answers and are fine. I've won several Fish games by raw dogging an Energy Field and at least one Goblins game, so this isn't just the nuts by any means.
Not running an Energy Field in the SB seems like a waste if you run RIPs main deck, but even should you forgo Energy Field, the Helm combo is hardly dead. True, it's pretty clunky if the RIPs aren't good in the MU, but it isn't dead. I would say that RIP/Helm is most dead against the mirror. It's pretty clunky against Show and Tell, but there are instances where they'll SNT and you'll just drop a Helm and win on the spot (I've done it more than once, so it definitely isn't just magic Christmas land).
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Valtrix
Really, what are the decks that we need the most help against, and is RIP helping us cover our weaker match-ups?
I think our weakest matchups are Shardless BUG and Goblins. 12-Post is pretty bad I've heard, but luckily no one actually runs it since it just loses to every other SNT deck. RIP is shuts down Deathrite, Goyf, and potential Loams from BUG. RIP itself does nothing against Goblins, although Helm and Energy Field are both very good against them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Valtrix
How often do we expect to see those weak matchups?
Goblins should likely be weeded out for the most part once you reach later rounds. You are likely to hit Jund and BUG all day long.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Valtrix
Is there anything else that might be strong against those decks, but be more versatile?
Moat is really solid against both Goblins and BUG (as well as Jund). Unfortunately, you are less likely to actually see Moat if you don't run Enlightened Tutor anyways.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
alphastryk
I also want to point out that I seem to win the majority of my matchups against blue decks with stack interaction via Helm. Just make them fight over Jace / Entreat / etc and then slam down Helm and kill them.
So do you leave RIP/Helm in against the mirror? I've thought about it, but it just seems so clunky there.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
^^^
Rip Field beats just about anything attempting to attack you. The ones that can decay it usually play Goyf and/or Shaman, so hitting Field leaves a relevant permanent, hitting RiP gives you a few turns to deal with it, as you don't have to immediately act upon the situation.
I love Venser, it's one of my favourite cards ever. Venser/Karakas is probably one of my favourite contraptions we can assemble. The problem is that when you don't have a million Lands in play, don't have Karakas, or just don't have anything good to do with your 2/2, it's a horrible card. I'm from the control school of 'Assume you are losing, and try not to die until eventually you win.". This is why my decks tend to play a high amount of StP/Terminus, and why I like playing actual Counterspell. I may even be playing a second, as I have a spot that can either be a first Ponder, a 24th Land, a Counterspell, a board card I feel like main-decking, a Venser, or something I've not though of. Venser is excellent when you've managed to not die, but bad when you're trying to get to that point. I'd rather have an additional FoW, Counterspell, StP, or whatever that I no longer have targets for sitting dead in my hand, than a Venser that really needed to be a lower cost answer to this random Beast.
EDIT: I bring in a second Helm in the mirror as a direct swap for the E-Field.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
First, no, I don't think they will replay it, not that turn, as A. Decay is a splash in a lot of decks. Second, if it is recastable, why would you target the Decay instead of the target? Bounce the target, counter the spell. That easy. I think that's solid.
-ABC
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
When I said blue decks, I meant various BUG, UWR, Esper stoneforge decks (in addition to the mirror) that I beat with helm. In terms of keeping helm in for the mirror - is it the true mirror or helm vs non-helm? keep all the pieces against non-helm, only keep one RiP and the helm in the true mirror, and never play a naked RiP in case they kept helm. Naked helm is fine, because the ability to mill in response to the opponent's top activation can stop miracles from happening, and most of us have few to no creatures, so you can just mill them out over time. It also gives you a 4 to tutor for in response to counterbalance triggers.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Anyone else excited about the new white commander card: Unexpectedly Absent.
WWX
Instant
Put target nonland permanent into its owner's library just beneath the top X cards of that library.
Seems incredibly versatile, and miracles generally has a problem dealing with non creature permanents. It's also awesome that it has a cmc of 2.
Too bad it can't hit Teeg.
My only concern is that with WW, it will be hard to cast it early unless you want to expose yourself to wasteland.
