Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
So, I played down in the Cincinnati legacy IQ yesterday. I did terrible. I got to keep hands of 7 only 4 times out of 15 total games, mulliganing away either 5-7 land hands, or 0-1 land hands all day, table shuffling in-between every throw back. And if mulliganing that many times, wasn't enough, I got wrecked by wastelands and rishadon ports all day too. It really makes me pose the question, are wastelands coming back into the meta so hard that cloudpost needs to go?
I was chatting with some other mud players while there. 1 of them went 5-2 with main deck soul of new phyrexia, trading post, batterskull, 2 greaves, only 3 forgemaster, 2 wurmcoil. His losses were to grixis control and reanimater.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BlackHawkX9
I was chatting with some other mud players while there. 1 of them went 5-2 with main deck soul of new phyrexia, trading post, batterskull, 2 greaves, only 3 forgemaster, 2 wurmcoil. His losses were to grixis control and reanimater.
Should have referred him here I'm interested in his list, and L10 has proposed that we step back from the Locus build and back onto the Voltaic Key Manland crucible build he's been on. I hadn't really been able to test it much but the theory behind it is solid. I am not sold on Trading Post something about that card bothers me but I'm not sure what, I should try it before I knock it though.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BlackHawkX9
So, I played down in the Cincinnati legacy IQ yesterday. I did terrible. I got to keep hands of 7 only 4 times out of 15 total games, mulliganing away either 5-7 land hands, or 0-1 land hands all day, table shuffling in-between every throw back. And if mulliganing that many times, wasn't enough, I got wrecked by wastelands and rishadon ports all day too. It really makes me pose the question, are wastelands coming back into the meta so hard that cloudpost needs to go?
I was chatting with some other mud players while there. 1 of them went 5-2 with main deck soul of new phyrexia, trading post, batterskull, 2 greaves, only 3 forgemaster, 2 wurmcoil. His losses were to grixis control and reanimater.
Seems like an awful lot of bad luck. 4 out of 15 is.... amazing actually :frown:
Wastelands coming back could also be solved by maindecking Crucible of Worlds. I'm not going to throw cloudpost out of the window because of it...
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
movingtonewao
Yeah I fear wasteland above all, but as the games panned out I really wanted to needle his jace telepath unbound which killed me pretty badly. I also knew he had some bolts in there (pretty funky brew he had).
I'm still waiting for that list to be uploaded. I recall seeing: delver, abrupt decay, kolaghans command, jace VP, lightning bolt, life from the loam, ancient grudge, force of will, tarmogoyf
My rationale for siding out monoliths against miracles is that the games can be a grind so a boost of mana is not really required.
You're probably right on the sundering titan over wurmcoil engine. I'm not sure that ugin is strictly better than karn, karn can remove a inkmoth. The 1 extra mana needed might also be crucial. I'll admit I haven't tested enough on this matchup.
How would you have sideboarded against BURG/Miracles/Infect/burn based on my list? I'm always trying to understand others' thought processes so I can integrate them into my own. Thanks for responding!
Do let us know your progress with the hangarback idea. Plenty of potential, just don't wanna see a swords to plowshares with that one!
Unsurprisingly, the Legacy port of Hangarback Shops is not good. Too slow. Different meta. Meltdown is not a card we are afraid of. After talking to James Wohlmacher who had a singleton Hangarback in his SB, he said it was probably his weakest card during the Legacy Champs. The card has potential, I just don't know if it has a home in Legacy outside of Affinity. I really just want to play Throwbots in Legacy. lol
The 4c Delver list sounds pretty neat. I wonder how often he actually gets to use the Loam Engine. Did you only see it post-board? Anyways, against the 4c Delver, I'd probably SB like this:
-1 Spine of Ish Sah (too expensive)
-1 Platinum Angel (i want to limit the number of 7cmc+ cards)
-1 Karn Liberated (i want to limit the number of 7cmc+ cards)
-1 Staff of Domination (too taxing. does not go well without Metalworker)
+1 Ratchet Bomb
+1 Wasteland
+1 Crucible of Worlds
+1 Batterskull
I like Trinisphere in this match-up because it disrupts there tempo. I can see an argument for Revoker or Needle too
Against Miracles:
-1 Spine of Ish Sah
-1 Platinum Angel
-1 Karn Liberated
+2 Phyrexian Revoker
+1 Ugin
I don't think Karn is particularly impressive against Mentor Miracles, since they can combo off fairly quick unlike Ponder Miracles. I had never lost against a Miracles player with Ugin out. I also like Grim Monolith in this match-up because I tend to try to slam down a huge threat by turn 2 or 3, forcing them to answer it before they can sculpt their hand. Crucible of Worlds is pretty great in this match-up too since they are a mana hungry deck. I'd probably take away Staff of Domination in place of it. It's up to you.
Against Infect:
-1 Spine of Ish Sah
-1 Sundering Titan
-2 Coercive Portal
+1 Trinisphere
+1 Wasteland
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Ratchet Bomb
I like Ugin over Karn in this match-up because the -X destroying multiple infect creatures at once and invalidates Vines of Vastwood. Having a 2/1 split may still be good.
Against Burn:
-1 Sundering Titan
-2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
-1 Karn Liberated
-2 Coercive Portal
+1 Trinisphere
+1 Batterskull
+3 Thorn
+1 Ratchet Bomb
I'd keep Spine in vs. Ensnaring Bridge.
Quote:
I was chatting with some other mud players while there. 1 of them went 5-2 with main deck soul of new phyrexia, trading post, batterskull, 2 greaves, only 3 forgemaster, 2 wurmcoil. His losses were to grixis control and reanimater.
This is awesome. I like the 3 Forgemaster plan if he is off Blightsteel. I think that's what the (nameless one) does. Sometimes, Forgemaster is a liability if you have no artifacts to sac with or get Stifled by Canadian Threshold and some UWr Stoneblade builds.
Sorry to hear about your hand. That's pretty unlucky. I think the new mulligan rule will help us tremendously. Lands is a pretty bad match-up, like 70/30 in their favor. I find Death and Taxes to be an easy match-up though, like 80/20 in my favor. Which is weird, because most MUD players I talk to have the exact opposite experience against DnT.
Quote:
I am not sold on Trading Post something about that card bothers me but I'm not sure what, I should try it before I knock it though.
Trading Post is a pretty cool tech, especially in conjunction with Crucible of Worlds and Darksteel Citadel or Mishra's Factory. Not sure I like it in a Post build though.
Quote:
Wastelands coming back could also be solved by maindecking Crucible of Worlds. I'm not going to throw cloudpost out of the window because of it...
That's an alternative. You'd probably want 4 Wastelands too if that were the case. But the main issue with Cloudpost is getting your first Cloudpost wasted with a hand of City of Traitors and Vesuva. In this case, Cloudpost can be a liability. BUT, if the first Cloudpost does not get hit by Wasteland, Cloudpost can help you stabilize very well in the mid game. That's actually a gamble in your favor, and is a pretty solid risk. I don't play with Cloudpost because I don't like losing that way, like explosive starts with Grim Monolith and Voltaic Key, and that I like to play with Wastelands, Cavern of Souls (the meta is very blue right now), and Mishra's Factory. Different strokes for different folks.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
From what I see when playing Post lands is that it's a great benefit to know if you are going against a deck with Wastelands. Then you can play around it. Voltaic Key and Thran Dynamo is a no go for me since I often see Null Rods.
Thanks for those who reported lately. I believe mull stats is a great thing to keey an eye on.
@BlackHawkX9: Did you find any other troubles with the build other than those?
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
darkgh0st
From what I see when playing Post lands is that it's a great benefit to know if you are going against a deck with Wastelands. Then you can play around it. Voltaic Key and Thran Dynamo is a no go for me since I often see Null Rods.
Thanks for those who reported lately. I believe mull stats is a great thing to keey an eye on.
@BlackHawkX9: Did you find any other troubles with the build other than those?
It was kinda difficult to pinpoint issues with the build when my issues were specifically bad mulligans, and heavy wasteland and rishadon port disruption on top of that. I do have to say though, wastelands are coming back full force, and that is something that our deck will need to answer, or be pushed out of relevance. And I am strongly considering dropping cloudposts again. Come into play tapped lands vs wasteland is really bad for us. Makes us always have to be fighting that uphill battle. But one thing I did really like, last minute I traded my 1/1 split main deck of staff of nin and coercive portal, for 2 portals, and the few games I got to actually play, it was a dream having more accessibility to the card draw. Fighting the uphill battle vs much mana disruption, 2 mana difference can make all the difference.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Does anyone have a cloudpostless list with Key/Thran? I'm curious now what current ones might look like.
Also why no Welder any more?
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
L10 has a post a couple pages back for a Cloudpostless list, which is very similar to Takumi Sugiyama's list.
Welder hasn't been popping up since Cloudpost was more effective at bringing in out fatties. Who knows that might change soon.
I still believe in Cloudpost even with high mana denial rampant.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
darkgh0st
L10 has a post a couple pages back for a Cloudpostless list, which is very similar to Takumi Sugiyama's list.
Welder hasn't been popping up since Cloudpost was more effective at bringing in out fatties. Who knows that might change soon.
I still believe in Cloudpost even with high mana denial rampant.
Welder was a much more aggressive combo version of mud that started losing favor when deathrite shaman showed up, because you couldn't as easily recur your dudes with deathrite eating them. But, who knows, we might have to adapt back to that way to stay relevant. We might be able to make post still work. We don't know til we try it.
Welder plus contagion engine would tear through all these pyromancer decks though. Worth considering.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Just spoiled.
Temple of the Forsaken Gods
Land
T: Add 1 to your mana pool.
T: Add 2 to your mana pool. Use this mana only to cast colorless spells. Activate this ability only if you control seven or more land.
looks meh.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
You got me way too excited for a second. Had me all the way until the end. Well, there is that. I want to give Gemstone Caverns a shot as a two-off. Maybe it will make playing on the draw less bad. It will give us 10 ways to drop a turn 1 Chalice on draw, and maybe even a turn 1 Trinisphere or Lodestone Golem.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
L10
You got me way too excited for a second. Had me all the way until the end. Well, there is that. I want to give Gemstone Caverns a shot as a two-off. Maybe it will make playing on the draw less bad. It will give us 10 ways to drop a turn 1 Chalice on draw, and maybe even a turn 1 Trinisphere or Lodestone Golem.
are you sure this is better than SSG or ESG if you want a bit more mana? the -1 card right off the bat seems pretty brutal vs decks that want to 1 for 1 your threats.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
L10, I've looked at your list and I'm now curious on a few things.
First up, why only 2 Sphere? It is great and I would never play less than 3.
Secondly, how good is Gemstone for you? Seems like the guide plan would be better for it.
Thirdly, Orbs of Warding, how good are they for you? I never liked them over something like Witchbane which is more consistent turn 2 able for me.
Anyway I'm now experimenting with the following MUD decks. I feel like I am brewing for the sake of brewing a bit but it has some interesting results
- Welder/Dereti using Scuttling Doom Engine/Wurmcoil a lot more, potentially forgoing Blightsteal with potential SSG.
- 9 Post version with Mishra's Factory and Mainboard Cruicible.
- Normal Post version.
- Mishra's Factory/Key version with Thran Dynamo and a 2 of Buried Ruin.
- A green version with Library, ESG and a pair of Birthing Pod
Also out of interest why don't the Crucible/Mishra's versions play Buried? It ETB untapped and recurrs something like a decayed Chalice or metalworker?
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
That new land is mediocre. Does not go to Valhalla
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sun tzu
are you sure this is better than SSG or ESG if you want a bit more mana? the -1 card right off the bat seems pretty brutal vs decks that want to 1 for 1 your threats.
No, because SSG and ESG are always card disadvantage. Same goes for Mox Diamond. This is not the same for Gemstone Caverns (inspired by Joe Lossett: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xouR3W7MSqo). The key here being that you only need to exile a card from your hand (any card, unlike Mox Diamond or Chrome Mox) IFF you are on the draw and want to leyline it to the battlefield. This is essentially the same as if my opponent and I both took a mulligan, and I went first by playing a land and pass. This is obvious with this example:
Assume my opponent and I kept our initial seven cards
1) I play Gemstone Caverns at the beginning of my opponent's turn by pitching a card (5 cards at hand)
2) My opponent plays Wasteland and waste the Gemstone Caverns (6 cards at hand)
3) I draw a card (6 cards at hand)
So from this perspective, there is nothing on board, and we both have a 6 card hand, which is essentially the same has me going on play with both of us having a mulligan.
Since I am only playing two copies, this gives me a 22% chance of having it in my opening. Since the chance of me going on play is 50%, now it is essentially bumped up to 61%.
This is all in theory by the way, and I don't necessarily know if it will have more utility than Cavern of Souls. Probably not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LeaPlath
L10, I've looked at your list and I'm now curious on a few things.
First up, why only 2 Sphere? It is great and I would never play less than 3.
Secondly, how good is Gemstone for you? Seems like the guide plan would be better for it.
Thirdly, Orbs of Warding, how good are they for you? I never liked them over something like Witchbane which is more consistent turn 2 able for me.
Also out of interest why don't the Crucible/Mishra's versions play Buried? It ETB untapped and recurrs something like a decayed Chalice or metalworker?
1) Because of my land base, I can abuse Crucible of Worlds more. This gives me an edge against deck like Lands and Death and Taxes (which surprisingly, is fragile to land disruption). Also, my deck plays a surprising amount of two drops and one drops compared to a generic 12-Post list, so Trinisphere may actually work against me. Not having 4 Trinisphere does make my deck more susceptible to OmniTell though, but that's about it. Crucible just feels incredible powerful to me against most match-ups that are not OmniTell and Burn. Though, in Game 1 against Burn, having Crucible allows me to waste my own lands except Darksteel Citadel, save myself from PoP, and not be mana-screwed.
2) Don't know yet. It is a recent inclusion that I have no real opinion on. I recommend:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
2-4 Darksteel Citadel
2-4 Cavern of Souls
3) Orbs of Warding has more utility, like against Grixis or BUG. I think it's okay. The SB changes a lot for me. I am also testing Razormane Masticore in that spot too. I feel Orbs of Warding is a win-more against Burn. Against Storm, neither Tendrils or EtW can kill you.
4) Buried Ruin is another tech you can use. I think it got weaker because of DRS being able to eat whatever creature you target. Getting a lock piece is nice but during the late game, I just want to draw into more threats or high impact cards. DRS is really the fun police. It's the same reason why Welder went out of favor.
PS: For my list, you can trade Crucible and Trinisphere for Thran Dynamo if you want. Thran Dynamo is great if you need a stable mana source and if you meta is Wasteland heavy. The problem is reaching the 4th mana. The good thing is, I had never once had anyone spending a counterspell on it. I am guessing because it's power level is non-obvious.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/...0365036266.png
If you play Signets and Duals maybe cards like this can work.
PROS... Counter-Spell!, Evasion, Flash, Trades with flipped Delver (must answer) Good against Food Chain?.. Good against cards like Snapcaster if nothing else.
CONS... enables Delve, Threshold.
You get a counter-spell on a body. Compare with Mystic Snake ...
Go speculate now!
http://magiccards.info/scans/en/lg/61.jpg
Creatures with Ingest will exile cards.
Relic of Progenitus can exile graveyards.
but you can cast this as a counterspell against counter heavy decks with In The Eye Of Chaos for protection against Force. plus Trinisphere. I dunno.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Troll_ov_Grimness
ulamog's nullifier
This card is a HUGE stretch. Were basically in magical christmasland before this does anything. Theres many good counterspells if thats what you need, and many good creatures. I'd rather have a good creature or good counterspell than a half-assed version of both thats incredibly situational.
But it blocks delver I guess.
On an unrelated note. Has anyone tried a blue version with wasteland + stifle (or trickbind, or squelch, or teferi's command )?
Against wasteland stifle seems super golden, especially when you can further punish their wasteland + low mana count manabases with your own wastelands.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
People have tried two colour MUD decks with Signets, for instance Daretti MUD with Choke
so Blue Black MUD playing Chalice Trinisphere In the Eye Of Chaos + This is not totally crazy
there might be other ways to make the effect of cards-from-exile better, such as Ingest mechanic
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
I have always viewed MUD of all variants as very proactive decks, not reactive decks. I don't think I would play counterspells unless it's free because I don't want to leave my mana up in the early game. I'd play with Rishadan Port to squeeze my opponent's manabase, which is especially good in combination of Wasteland, Lodestone Golem, and Trinisphere. I would also not splash more than one color for MUD since this thread is primarily about Metalworker strategies. If I do splash, it'd probably be for one very powerful card, like Daretti or the Abyss.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Troll_ov_Grimness
http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/...0365036266.png
If you play Signets and Duals maybe cards like this can work.
PROS... Counter-Spell!, Evasion, Flash, Trades with flipped Delver (must answer) Good against Food Chain?.. Good against cards like Snapcaster if nothing else.
CONS... enables Delve, Threshold.
You get a counter-spell on a body. Compare with Mystic Snake ...
Go speculate now!
http://magiccards.info/scans/en/lg/61.jpg
Creatures with Ingest will exile cards.
Relic of Progenitus can exile graveyards.
but you can cast this as a counterspell against counter heavy decks with In The Eye Of Chaos for protection against Force. plus Trinisphere. I dunno.
Yeah no one will play that... Ever.
