[Deck] Dredge

General question:

If you had to post a list that you felt was the most consistent in terms of balancing consistency/explosiveness of a dread return list, what would you feel a 'stock' list would look like?

How different from the following list would it be and what would those changes be?

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12 LANDS
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine

23 CREATURES
4 Ichorid
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug
1 Flame-Kin Zealot

17 INSTANTS and SORC.
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
3 Breakthrough
2 Dread Return

8 OTHER SPELLS
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Bridge from Below

SIDEBOARD
4 Nature's Claim
3 Firestorm
1 Ashen Rider
4 Faerie Macabre
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Wear / Tear

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[QUOTE=JPoJohnson;807988]General question:

If you had to post a list that you felt was the most consistent in terms of balancing consistency/explosiveness of a dread return list, what would you feel a 'stock' list would look like?

How different from the following list would it be and what would those changes be?[/

I would run 3 ichorids 4 thugs and 2 breakthroughs as the main differences and change the return target to a Flayer

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Originally Posted by JPoJohnson

T4 isn't really that intimidating. That card doesn't look very legacy playable.

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You're entirely right!

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Originally Posted by DarkJester

Even Crypt Incursion would be better, and this shit doesn't see play at all. So now you may sleep well again. :smile:

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I've asked every player I know for their crypt incursions.
It's not a card that anyone plays. I'm trying to keep it that way.

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Originally Posted by Echelon

As I said in the other dredge board...

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I agree with you. I didn't think it through before I posted...Oops!

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Originally Posted by JPoJohnson

General question:

If you had to post a list that you felt was the most consistent in terms of balancing consistency/explosiveness of a dread return list, what would you feel a 'stock' list would look like?

How different from the following list would it be and what would those changes be?

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I would not try and find a balance. I would either go for the combo kill in deck with 2-3 dread returns+flayer+Grizzlebrand or do just 0-1 dread returns only. The reason being that when you try and compromise in the middle you get both styles weaknesses. You get weaker hands that may have to be mulled and you won't be able to "combo off" fast enough or consistently enough to warrant the inclusion of those three cards.


@Vandalize: I've replaced Breakthrough and Putrid Imp with Street Wraith and Firestorm and have been very happy with the switch so far.

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Originally Posted by joemauer

I would not try and find a balance. I would either go for the combo kill in deck with 2-3 dread returns+flayer+Grizzlebrand or do just 0-1 dread returns only. The reason being that when you try and compromise in the middle you get both styles weaknesses. You get weaker hands that may have to be mulled and you won't be able to "combo off" fast enough or consistently enough to warrant the inclusion of those three cards.


@Vandalize: I've replaced Breakthrough and Putrid Imp with Street Wraith and Firestorm and have been very happy with the switch so far.

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So which do you think is overall the better deck? (Ignoring metas in specific areas and just stating overall against legacy decks in general).

You're saying something more like this?

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Lands (12)
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum

Creatures (21)
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
1 Griselbrand
1 Flame-Kin Zealot

Spells (23)
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Breakthrough
3 Dread Return
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

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If I were to play Dread Return it would be in a similar deck list as you posted.

I think Dread Returnless is the way to go at the moment, but that is just my opinion and wouldn't be shocked to find out I am wrong.

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Originally Posted by joemauer

If I were to play Dread Return it would be in a similar deck list as you posted.

I think Dread Returnless is the way to go at the moment, but that is just my opinion and wouldn't be shocked to find out I am wrong.

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I personally play a very combo heavy version with 3 dread return, 2 grisel and a flayer for game one which has been great so far. I do tend to cut most of that for post SB games unless I'm playing against other heavy combo decks (ie ANT, show and tell, belcher, OOPS, etc). I like to win the turn I "go off". This is mostly due to the fact I've been seeing a lot of ensnaring bridges lately.


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Originally Posted by drude1

I personally play a very combo heavy version with 3 dread return, 2 grisel and a flayer for game one which has been great so far. I do tend to cut most of that for post SB games unless I'm playing against other heavy combo decks (ie ANT, show and tell, belcher, OOPS, etc). I like to win the turn I "go off". This is mostly due to the fact I've been seeing a lot of ensnaring bridges lately.


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And do you run Pimps?

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Originally Posted by drude1

I personally play a very combo heavy version with 3 dread return, 2 grisel and a flayer for game one which has been great so far. I do tend to cut most of that for post SB games unless I'm playing against other heavy combo decks (ie ANT, show and tell, belcher, OOPS, etc). I like to win the turn I "go off". This is mostly due to the fact I've been seeing a lot of ensnaring bridges lately.


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Why do you run those cards main if you're just going to side them out post board? Game 1 should be the easiest game to win regardless of whether you're playing the quadlazer list or the "combo heavy" version. If anything you're diminishing your chances Game 1 by introducing cards that are dead (Dread Return, Grisel, Flayer) in your opening 7. The cards don't do anything unless you've already go something going. I would just keep the heavy combo pieces in your board when you encounter faster combo like Belcher, Storm variants, and OOPs,etc.. which are a lot less prevalent in my general experience.

Also if ensnaring bridge is causing you problems I would run Ancient Grudge/s an or an Ashen Rider/Woodfal Primus/Terrastodon in your board which you should have anyways to deal with random things like Elephant Grass, Peacekeeper, Dueling Grounds, and other random junk people like to play in their sb.

The only time I would really want an "I Win" button Dread Return Target would be against something like Lands which can put you under a vice grip with Tabernacle and Maze of Ith making it impossible to grind them out with creatures. Again this is also not an ideal case as there aren't very many dedicated lands players. The deck is expensive I hear.

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Originally Posted by Que

The only time I would really want an "I Win" button Dread Return Target would be against something like Lands which can put you under a vice grip with Tabernacle and Maze of Ith making it impossible to grind them out with creatures. Again this is also not an ideal case as there aren't very many dedicated lands players. The deck is expensive I hear.

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I completely agree. I have cut the "I win" package and have never looked back. Infact I am down to just 1 DR target in the board "Iona" and 2 DR's (1 main, 1 side). You really don't need them. I would rather play more anti hate.

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Originally Posted by Que

Cabal Therapy is my favorite card mein. I'm biased. :P I think one of the strengths of the deck is pulling insane value from that card. Thats why knowing which cards can adversely hurt you is really important. Once you get your engine online there are really only a handful of cards you'd really care about.

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I still kicked ur ass with my bojuka bogs. Name that sucka

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Originally Posted by KobeBryan

I still kicked ur ass with my bojuka bogs. Name that sucka

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Whose this? xD

And yes I do hate Bojuka Bog for that very reason and the Lands matchup all together. Though it could be you were playing Junk?

I do actually. Although I may ditch them as well as I dropped down to 2 ichorids.


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Originally Posted by drude1

I do actually. Although I may ditch them as well as I dropped down to 2 ichorids.


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I guess cause you're playing the combo version? 2 Ichorids sounds completely wrong. Its the best creature in the deck that isn't Troll.

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Originally Posted by Que

I guess cause you're playing the combo version? 2 Ichorids sounds completely wrong. Its the best creature in the deck that isn't Troll.

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It is indeed because I run a heavy combo version (with 4 lotus petal even). What I've found is that even if your dread returns and therapies get countered, you are still making zombies to beat down with. Thus, the ichorids have been largely irrelevant game one. The biggest reason I would keep the putrid imps in is because they are the easiest creature to drop and sac. Also, post SB the imps work better to slow roll the dredge plan so you don't get blown own by a one time graveyard effect like a bog. In fact I often side out LED and breakthroughs for the same reason. Nothing worse than breakthroughing and then getting bogged or crypted out of the game.
I also play with a semi-transitional SB (I started with the painter combo but have moved on) and am just more of a combo freak than most other dredge players I think. I'm certainly not saying it's the the best, most consistent dredge version ever.


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Originally Posted by Que

Whose this? xD

And yes I do hate Bojuka Bog for that very reason and the Lands matchup all together. Though it could be you were playing Junk?

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Its been a while...but i played the bant list.

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Originally Posted by drude1

It is indeed because I run a heavy combo version (with 4 lotus petal even). What I've found is that even if your dread returns and therapies get countered, you are still making zombies to beat down with. Thus, the ichorids have been largely irrelevant game one. The biggest reason I would keep the putrid imps in is because they are the easiest creature to drop and sac. Also, post SB the imps work better to slow roll the dredge plan so you don't get blown own by a one time graveyard effect like a bog. In fact I often side out LED and breakthroughs for the same reason. Nothing worse than breakthroughing and then getting bogged or crypted out of the game.
I also play with a semi-transitional SB (I started with the painter combo but have moved on) and am just more of a combo freak than most other dredge players I think. I'm certainly not saying it's the the best, most consistent dredge version ever.


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I've never really played with Lotus Petals. I don't think I've seen any list run them competitively anyway. I think having only a couple of Ichorids to generate extra zombies with could lead to serious issues when you do face a DRS game 1. It will most likely eat your Ichorids before you even have the chance to recur them once. This will definitely put a strain on your DR game plan as you would naturally have to drop creatures onto the board with which to sacrifice (remember Narcomoeba can also get eaten when it hits the graveyard before its trigger resolves).

Game 2. There really isn't a way to play around BOG. Most of the time if they're using it like a Tormond's Crypt then yeah sure, but in my experience this card is normally paired with something like Crop Rotation which can blow you out at any moment. If they do use it at sorcery speed then the strategy would be to put as much power onto the board before it comes down. This usually means you have to hedge your bets, the only real way to hit a critical mass would be to keep LEDs in as its still does what we want (it being mana and a discard outlet in one) and is even more busted against the non blue decks. This can vary depending on the matchup obviously.

And yeah we can all play what we went its our prerogative. But I'm just trying to lead pilots to a more consistent avenue to victory rather than the flashier one.

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Originally Posted by drude1

I personally play a very combo heavy version with 3 dread return, 2 grisel and a flayer for game one which has been great so far. I do tend to cut most of that for post SB games unless I'm playing against other heavy combo decks (ie ANT, show and tell, belcher, OOPS, etc). I like to win the turn I "go off". This is mostly due to the fact I've been seeing a lot of ensnaring bridges lately.


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What does your list look like?