[Primer/Deck] Pox

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Originally Posted by heyjohnsexton

Given that we've been exploring control-oriented lists on this thread for a while, I wonder if we might get into some new territory by exploring more aggressive builds.

I'm imagining pox and smallpox would be more like light disruption to keep the opponent off balance just long enough to win instead of a means to establish actual control of the game - more like tempo.

What would a super aggro / tempo version of pox look like?


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The problem you are going to run into is the threat package you have available.
Bloodghast, Nether Spirit, Bitterblossom, Lingering Souls, Tombstalker, The Rack, not that these are terrible threats. I'm sure I am forgetting several, but a tempo deck with turn the corner ability isn't exactly what pox effects are great at. Maybe something with Stoneforge Mystic, but I would say at that point you are just playing a bad Stoneforge Mystic deck and you'd be better off playing D&T. The next spot would be more planeswalkers, but they are mana intensive. It can be tedious to hit 4 mana if you are playing Wasteland and pox effects.

In my little brain, the best tempo style pox deck I can think of involves Bloodghast and Bitterblossom possibly with a Tombstalker along with Daze and Brainstorm. Tempo decks want to cast multiple spells a turn and discarding a Bloodghast or getting a token every turn off of Bitterblossom provides a similar effect to casting a spell. Smallpox, Hymn to Tourach, or Sinkhole with Daze backup seems like a reasonable place to be.

How good is blossom without equipment?

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Originally Posted by Hardcore

How good is blossom without equipment?

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Depends on the matchup but in general yes it is good.

My list. I think the slow traditional style of Pox just does not work. You need to use your first 3-4 turns to destabilize your opponent.. and then quickly cut their throat.


3 Sinkhole
4 Entomb
3 Smallpox
3 Collective Brutality
2 Noxious Revival
3 Innocent Blood
2 Empty the Pits
4 Hymn To Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Life from the Loam
4 Thoughtseize
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Syphon Life
3 Bloodghast
1 Nether Spirit
4 Bayou
4 Wasteland
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Polluted Delta
7 Swamp

SB

1 Ratchet Bomb
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Dread of Night
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Sphere of Resistance
2 Helm Of Obedience
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Toxic Deluge

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Originally Posted by Pittplayer

My list. I think the slow traditional style of Pox just does not work. You need to use your first 3-4 turns to destabilize your opponent.. and then quickly cut their throat.


3 Sinkhole
4 Entomb
3 Smallpox
3 Collective Brutality
2 Noxious Revival
3 Innocent Blood
2 Empty the Pits
4 Hymn To Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Life from the Loam
4 Thoughtseize
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Syphon Life
3 Bloodghast
1 Nether Spirit
4 Bayou
4 Wasteland
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Polluted Delta
7 Swamp

SB

1 Ratchet Bomb
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Dread of Night
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Sphere of Resistance
2 Helm Of Obedience
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Toxic Deluge

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How is this supposed to run on 21 lands? Must be a typo because even with Life from the Loam you need more lands.
May as well have a Raven's Crime somewhere, maybe even a Darkblast.
Noxious Revival is trash.
Is Empty the Pits really better than just playing a Worm Harvest? I just figure you can dredge it or Entomb for it, I've never played Empty the Pits though.
Where are the mana producing cards? How in the heck can you consistently hit land drops when you are using Wasteland and casting Smallpox?
No Liliana of the Veil seems very odd, but I have yet to test any pox list without her. I guess with no lands you never get to 3 mana anyways.

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Originally Posted by Hardcore

How good is blossom without equipment?

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The question isn't how good is Bitterblossom without equipment, it is how good is the equipment without Bitterblossom. How many creatures do you play? How mana intensive is the equipment?
Bitterblossom on it's own can win games depending on the matchup.
If a pox deck is playing 5 or 6 cards that can use equipment and contains no deck manipulation, how many times are you gonna top deck an equipment with no threat on the board. That equipment is going to be way better off as an actual threat.
I've been having success with going back to good ole Tombstalker. Nice Fatal Push/Abrupt Decay/Lightning Bolt and it's basically never outclassed by a creature.

Pox wants to win top deck wars, top decking a stupid equipment is only relevant if you have a creature in play. If you have a creature in play you'd be better off drawing more pressure or more disruption. 5 mana to play and equip a sword or 4 for jitte, and that's assuming you have a threat. Ob Nixilis would be better. Batterskull isn't terrible though, especially if you have Dark Ritual.

I now keep Tomby in the sideboard permanently as a 'surprise' for people who realize regular removal is almost useless game 1. He's a staple as far as long tournaments are concerned and a 3 turn clock after a Big Pox is always welcome.

On Ob Nixilis Reignited, I HIGHLY recommend him as a sideboard for your grinding matches. He turns Liliana Pox into "Superfriends Pox" and works absolute wonders when you top deck him late game. I only run 1 in the board if it's a long game and end up sideboarding out my Dark Ritual and my Contagion. Can't afford card disadvantage if you're going to live for 10+ turns. Of course, if you're facing down multiple 3/3 critters, you're probably screwed but if a single biggie is about to eat you or of it the board is clear, he's a godsend. I also run 2 Spinning Darkness to help stay alive and feed his +1.

I see that most of you run Ob Nixilis, Reignited. I am of the Mind that Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath is the better option. I will admit that the card draw on ONR is appealing, and the protection is unconditional; however, ONB can protect itself with a 5/5 flying blocker which is a 4 turn clock. That's pretty insane. It's plus with life gain I'd relevant and it's ultimate when paired with any recursive creature HAS to be game over.

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Originally Posted by sppabin

How is this supposed to run on 21 lands? Must be a typo because even with Life from the Loam you need more lands.
May as well have a Raven's Crime somewhere, maybe even a Darkblast.
Noxious Revival is trash.
Is Empty the Pits really better than just playing a Worm Harvest? I just figure you can dredge it or Entomb for it, I've never played Empty the Pits though.
Where are the mana producing cards? How in the heck can you consistently hit land drops when you are using Wasteland and casting Smallpox?
No Liliana of the Veil seems very odd, but I have yet to test any pox list without her. I guess with no lands you never get to 3 mana anyways.

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The deck is more aggro control then control. I never have a problem with mana since my mana curve is so low and I only run 5 cards that need non black mana. If I have 2 lands in play I pretty much can run my whole deck. Revival is gold here.. giving me card selection that pox does not normally have.. putting that Abrupt Decay back on my topdeck can win games. Worm Harvest is too expensive.. where as if the game goes late.. the Empty the Pits wins in one turn ( instant speed makes the card playable ). I don't want to run Lily.. I am trying to be able to win fast.. Lily is a durdle card.. not what I want. Like I said.. first 3 turns I want to mutilate the OP's game plan.. then start putting beats down t4.

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Originally Posted by sppabin

The question isn't how good is Bitterblossom without equipment, it is how good is the equipment without Bitterblossom. How many creatures do you play? How mana intensive is the equipment?
Bitterblossom on it's own can win games depending on the matchup.
If a pox deck is playing 5 or 6 cards that can use equipment and contains no deck manipulation, how many times are you gonna top deck an equipment with no threat on the board. That equipment is going to be way better off as an actual threat.
I've been having success with going back to good ole Tombstalker. Nice Fatal Push/Abrupt Decay/Lightning Bolt and it's basically never outclassed by a creature.

Pox wants to win top deck wars, top decking a stupid equipment is only relevant if you have a creature in play. If you have a creature in play you'd be better off drawing more pressure or more disruption. 5 mana to play and equip a sword or 4 for jitte, and that's assuming you have a threat. Ob Nixilis would be better. Batterskull isn't terrible though, especially if you have Dark Ritual.

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Smuggler's Copter might be something to try depending on the list. Forgive me if it's already been examined and ruled out - I don't lurk here too much but I have played some similar style decks (Braids Stax was the first online deck I built).

Seems like it alleviates some issues you mention with equipment. Cheap to get out, especially opposed to 5-drop planeswalkers. Allows any ground creatures to get through such as Bobs. Bitterblossom tokens can immediately crew it even with summoning sickness, and the looting seemed extremely valuable to me when I've used it in Dragon Stompy. Seems like it'd be a nice way to grind out the topdeck battle.

That said, perhaps there is some other not-quite-Pox list that is quite heavy on tokens that could make better use of it. Bobs, Ophiomancer, Bitterblossom...wait thats just me trying to revive Braids Stax :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Fjaulnir

Interesting build. Did you feel like the inclusion of Mox Diamonds didnt really advance your deck?

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I tried using Mox Diamonds in place of Pernicious Deed, but after a few games it became apparent that in that style of build I needed the boardwipe ability later in the game much more than I needed the acceleration in the early game.

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Originally Posted by ClimbGneiss

I see that most of you run Ob Nixilis, Reignited. I am of the Mind that Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath is the better option. I will admit that the card draw on ONR is appealing, and the protection is unconditional; however, ONB can protect itself with a 5/5 flying blocker which is a 4 turn clock. That's pretty insane. It's plus with life gain I'd relevant and it's ultimate when paired with any recursive creature HAS to be game over.

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That's a good point, would be good with Bloodghasts, even if a little clunky with Loam and Factory.

If the biggest problem is that we never assume permanent control of the game, then I think the solution may be simple: Let's add a lock. What if we bring in something like Smokestack + Nether Spirit for permanent resource denial? Something like that?

Also, a recent game with Ankh Pox against a friend with Loam went like this(I started):
Fetch, go.
Land, top, go (I fetch and brainstorm to find an Ankh)
Land, Ankh, go
Fetch, chalice on one, Mox Diamond(I Daze)
Land, Smallpox, pitching a Nether Spirit
He couldn't recover from that.

As far as permanent locks go, I find that a nether void and a Liliana buys you a lot of time against basically anything that doesn't play Loam or crucible, especially if you have non-Liliana creature control such as blocking with nether spirit/factory or cursed scroll activations, and if you get to ultimate the Liliana then play a wasteland they usually can't recover. Basically any deck that can actually recover from that is either Lands or stone cold to abyss+cursed scroll. If I want a more permanent lock, I usually go for dust bowl and drownyard temple. My plan for lands is to board in 9-11 cards and tear their ability to actually kill me apart with surgicals, pithing needles, chalice of the void, extirpates, and ensnaring bridge.

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Originally Posted by Quitrex

As far as permanent locks go, I find that a nether void and a Liliana buys you a lot of time against basically anything that doesn't play Loam or crucible, especially if you have non-Liliana creature control such as blocking with nether spirit/factory or cursed scroll activations, and if you get to ultimate the Liliana then play a wasteland they usually can't recover. Basically any deck that can actually recover from that is either Lands or stone cold to abyss+cursed scroll. If I want a more permanent lock, I usually go for dust bowl and drownyard temple. My plan for lands is to board in 9-11 cards and tear their ability to actually kill me apart with surgicals, pithing needles, chalice of the void, extirpates, and ensnaring bridge.

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You sir, I owe you an ale! Aside from Dakmor and Crucible goofiness, I've always wanted an unconditional way to bring pox fodder land back. I used to use Crucible for Undiscovered Paradise + Retrace goofiness but now I have a reason to bring back my old Dust Bowls. I used to use them long before I could afford Wastelands. :cool: I'll be posting my list after some testing in 2 weeks or so.

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Originally Posted by OmniStrata

You sir, I owe you an ale! Aside from Dakmor and Crucible goofiness, I've always wanted an unconditional way to bring pox fodder land back. I used to use Crucible for Undiscovered Paradise + Retrace goofiness but now I have a reason to bring back my old Dust Bowls. I used to use them long before I could afford Wastelands. :cool: I'll be posting my list after some testing in 2 weeks or so.

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Always happy to be of service. I would personally recommend considering having some number of your accelerants (if you play any) be mox diamonds, which also play well with your temples. If you wish to run more than a 2 temple 1 dust bowl split and/or run factories with it, you will absolutely need the fourth urborg in your deck, but if you get to run a dust bowl for several turns, especially if you aren't setting yourself back lands, then most of the slower decks just can't beat you. And, it should be noted that almost nothing can function under a nether void with a dust bowl out.
Where I would recommend starting for a mono-B dust bowl mana base is something like
3 Drownyard Temple
2 Dust Bowl
2 Mishra's Factory
9 Swamp
1 Tabernacle(if you have it and your meta is good for it) or sea gate wreckage
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
3-4 Mox Diamond

if you're trying for a second color, it gets harder to work in the 11th colorless land, and I'd start somewhere closer to either
3 Drownyard/2 Dust Bowl - OR - 2 Drownyard 1 dust bowl 2 factory
5 relevant fetch land
2 relevant dual -OR- 1 dual 1 basic
4 wasteland
4 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
1 tabernacle (still if available/applicable) or sea gate wreckage
4 swamp
4 mox diamond

Personally, I haven't tried it yet, but i feel like it would play very well with chalice, and I know that warping wail is surprisingly effective against basically everything except eldrazi. it counters many relevant spells out of storm, exiles most creatures out of D&T, stops show and tell/reanimation spells, exiles Deathrite Shaman and counters ancestral and hymn out of shard less, exiles pyromancer, pre flip delver, and DRS out of delver variants, while countering ponders (it's a good enough matchup that i'm fine with one of my point-and-click spots being only average against them, especially when you're attacking their lands so aggressively) hits the relevant creatures out of painter matchups, counters entreat the #%$^# angels out of miracles, and just keeps going. I wouldn't want more than one in my main, but I think it's worth considering if you're going drownyard/dust bowl. I also really like sea-gate wreckage when we force a late-game top deck war with our liliana plus blatant attacks on our opponents' mana. my two cents on how i'd start looking at it.

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Originally Posted by Quitrex

*cool info*

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Actually, I'm not a fan of Sea Gate as it doesn't do anything to my opponent and it's very very mana hungry. Just running 1 Cursed Scroll is quite taxing as is. Even more so with me dust bowling extra swamps. I was more on the road of 2 Mishra's, 1 Dust Bowl & 1 Drownyard Temple as I'm more interested in keeping my mana early and then scraping by later game. That and I've run brews with less than 10 swamps and those make me cry, 4 Urborg's included. Instead, I've run Maze of Ith in the Tabernacle slot as the astronomical price of a Tabernacle could essentially buy me another Mono-B Pox deck. Please would some designer at Wizard print a functioning duplicate of this beast of a card? :frown: Hell, make it common just cause it's so useless in decks that pack armies of creatures. :laugh:

On Maze of Ith's use, I've never 'not liked' seeing it on the field as it's just a 1-of that works with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and stops me from getting plastered by 4 power+ creatures. Gives Nether Spirit and Mishra's Factories vigilance in a hilarious way too.

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Originally Posted by OmniStrata

Please would some designer at Wizard print a functioning duplicate of this beast of a card? :frown: Hell, make it common just cause it's so useless in decks that pack armies of creatures. :laugh:
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I was thinking about this the other day. They oughta print a legendary colorless pain-land with the Tabernacle ability, except its a sacrifice not a destroy. It would fill the same role as Tabernacle in many decks, while still allowing Tabernacle to be optimal in Depths lists. The danger is allowing the 2 to stack....

That card would be absolutely bananas. I know I would put two copies in my pox building binder, right next to my tabernacle. Also, at that point I think that elves basically ceases to be a deck, which I'm fine with, but means everything needs to get re-tuned again. Besides, putting that land in modern just seems bananas.
All that said, I would be a happy man if they did.

I piloted Pox to 17th place at TJ's Titanium Weekend Plus Legacy 1k today.

my list:

4 Innocent Blood
4 Thoughtseize
4 Cursed Scroll
4 Dark Ritual
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Collective Brutality
1 Pox
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
12 Swamp

4 Leyline of the Void
3 Collective Brutality
3 Trinisphere
2 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Plague
1 Perish

Round 1. Grixis Delver. 1-2: I kept a turn 1 Inquisition/turn 2 Ritual, Liliana, but they had enough threats to deal with it. I think I won game 2, no notes. Game 3 I kept a speculative 6 with one land, 2 Innocent Blood, 2 Thoughtseize, but it never came together.

Round 2. Turbo Depths. 2-1: I lost game 1 to a quick 20/20. Game 2 turn 1 Trini, turn 3 Sinkhole, and kept him off spells and lands the whole game. Game 3 was turn 1 ritual, thoughtseize, sinkhole, keep him off lands.

Round 3. Nic Fit. 2-1: Game 1 he was able to build up to Nissa mana and smash me with a 5/5. Games 2 and 3 I was able to disrupt his hand and mana without killing his explorers and he was never able to cast much. I got a Liliana up to 12 Loyalty one game!

Round 4. Infect. 2-0: I love this matchup. Turn 1 Thoughtseize is great, as is Smallpox. No dead cards in this match-up, easy wins.

Round 5. Grixis Control. 1-2: This match was on camera, I'll post the link when it ends up on Youtube. My opponent was Noah Walker with his new-fangled 4-Color Control build. I beat him game 1 (off-camera, of course) with an early Ritual+Smallpox+Liliana turn that he never recovered from. Games 2 and 3 were what I expected: I grind and grind, but eventually he lands Jace: the Mind Sculptor and I can't deal with it. If this deck finds a home in the meta, I will need to to address Jace. He runs Decay, so my needles are unreliable.

Round 6. Elves. 2-0: This match, in my experience, feels better than it actually is. Elves can operate from very low and top-deck threats all day. If I can't land a lock piece like Engineered Plague I have to worry about losing to random Birchlore Ranger beats. This match, however, it played out like it looks on paper. I blew him out with Toxic Deluge and Smallpox both games.

I was super happy with my deck. I wish I had run 1 Nether Spirit over 1 Inquisition of Kozilek, and I was heavily prepared for Dredge, Reanimator, and Burn, none of which I faced, so sideboarding was a little weird, but I'll be running it back next chance I get!

Props to double maindeck Toxic Deluge, and TJ's for running a tight event!
Slops to 17th place when prize payout went to top 16 T_T