thanks for the reply! i should clarify because i am familar with those lists, but, is there a list viable for rpimetime and warping wail WITHOUT tops. .....Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott
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thanks for the reply! i should clarify because i am familar with those lists, but, is there a list viable for rpimetime and warping wail WITHOUT tops. .....Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott
I'd think traditional mono-G could probably handle it. With any Post land base, C is already one of a deck's "colors" by default, so 1C isn't unreasonable.Quote:
Originally Posted by prdgchild
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with a living wish deck what are the "meta slots" you mentioned? what would you define as nearly untouchable?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
Warping wail is fine in any deck with more than the 8 posts as colorless sources. I also run a cavern, a stage, a waste, and 2 vesuva.Quote:
Originally Posted by prdgchild
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Depths? why or why not?Quote:
Originally Posted by nimkee
Depending on my build, I run Depths. I always run the Thespians regardless though because it has so much utility / synergy. It can be either post, an extra green source, it can copy an Eye as your Eye is getting wasted, and copy a Chasm during upkeep and then untap with Candle etc. It also is a great weapon against opposing depths or lands decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by prdgchild
When people are worried about big Eldrazi and prime times sometimes they forget and you can just turn 5 them or put the ball in their court. Not every deck has an answer to a 20/20 (though a surprising amount do). More than being an active strategy I will sometimes play depths to bait out wastelands or give people pause.
Depths, to me, is an alternate win-con. It gives flexibility and sometimes can just get you the win. If they are depending on a Karakas you can needle the karakas and just kill them. Sometimes its an eot thing with Crop rotation and you win out of nowhere. I don't like it as much in greedier mana-bases so I only run it in the mono-green build. I would probably run it main if I were splashing a single color with green (GW for example) for a couple cards in the sideboard. I hate getting wasted out though, so color me cautious.
If you haven't seen it yet, we have an unconfirmed leak from Ixalan that gives us a powerful new toy…
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We already run pithing needle. I don't know how much more useful this is other than getting around a chalice on 1. paying the extra mana to probe doesn't sound super powerful for a 12 post deck. only advantage I would say is to see if they are holding counterspells. Feels better in an elves deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBoozeCube
It's still probably worth testing. It might allow for greedier lines of play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skriger
Playing around Chalice might be worth it. Being able to name Wasteland vs Eldrazi should improve that matchup significantly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skriger
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Hello,
I’ve lurked for a while, guess it’s time to finally post. I went the Legacy Loot tournament in Lincoln RI. Here’s the list I used:
4x Cloudpost
4x Glimmerpost
4x Vesuva
7x Forest
2x Cavern of Souls
1x Eye of Ugin
1x Glacial Chasm
1x Karakas
1x Ancient Tomb
1x Thespian’s Stage
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Maze of Ith
1x The Tabernacle at Pendral Vale
4x Primeval Titan
1x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1x Emrakul, New
1x Emrakul, Old
4x Ancient Stirrings
4x Crop Rotation
3x Expedition Map
3x Pithing Needle
4x Warping Wail
2x Trinishere
2x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1x Sylvan Library
1x Candelabra of Twanos
Sideboard:
1x Zuron Orb
4x Sphere of Resistance
2x Moment’s Peace
4x Fairy Macabre
1x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Krosan Grip
1x Carpet of Flowers
Round 1: G/B Pox
Game one I keep an opener without a forest, never really do much. Game was long and drawn out. I lose to bloodghast beats. Game 2, early pithing needle on wasteland into a turn 4 titan. Titan gets killed but the damage is done. Game draws out for a while but Ugin wins me the game. Game three, he leads with a turn one bojuka bog (later in the game I vesuva the bog multiple times to kill loam engines). I win fairly easy after landing a titan followed by an eldrazi.
Round 2: Dredge, with mana
Game one, crop rotate into bojuka bog is really good. He scoops after I land a titan. Game 2, I slow him down with a fairy macabre. He finally builds a board. I play tabernacle, killing all his guys. I land a trinisphere. He concedes but wants to play it out. Promised end comes out the next turn, he laughs and picks his cards up.
Round 3: Grixis Delver/Pyro
Game one, I keep an opener without a forest. It’s a slow death by pyromancer. Tabernacle held him off a while but I loose. Game 2, turn 4 uncounterable titan, he can’t beat it. Game 3, I land an ensnaring bridge. It successfully stalls until I titan into eldrazi. After the match, he says he runs 4 wastelands but saw zero all match. Good luck for me I guess.
Rounds 4 and 5: Intentional draw into top 8
Top 8: Jund NicFit feat. Sneak Attack
Game one, I keep an opener without a forest. I lose (notice the trend?) Game 2, pithing needle on sneak attack and ensnaring bridge slow him down. I eventually have infinite turns and wipe his entire board with Ceaseless Hunger. Game 3, my opener is ancient tomb, 2 expedition map, cloudpost, vesuva, forest, primeval titan. I snap keep. Turn one he blind therapy’s both my maps followed by my titan. I fail to recover and lose.
Notes: Need more forests. Ensnaring bridge was clutch. I miss thought Knot seer. Just an FYI on the zuron orb; I play against way to many burn/price decks to not run one in the board.
New List:
4x Cloudpost
4x Glimmerpost
4x Vesuva
8x Forest
1x Cavern of Souls
1x Eye of Ugin
1x Glacial Chasm
1x Karakas
1x Ancient Tomb
1x Thespian’s Stage
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Maze of Ith
4x Primeval Titan
1x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1x Emrakul, New
1x Emrakul, Old
2x Thought Knot Seer
4x Ancient Stirrings
4x Crop Rotation
3x Expedition Map
3x Pithing Needle
3x Warping Wail
2x Trinishere
2x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1x Sylvan Library
1x Candelabra of Twanos
Sideboard:
1x Zuron Orb
4x Sphere of Resistance
2x Moment’s Peace
3x Fairy Macabre
2x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Krosan Grip
1x The Tabernacle at Pendral Vale
thanks for the write up! list looks good.Quote:
Originally Posted by NimbleJosh
Only card I consider "required" is crop rotation. Everything else is a meta call.Quote:
Originally Posted by prdgchild
With such a large presence of Delver decks would it make sense to construct a build that plays more like modern tron? Utilizing things like Pyroclasm, Kozilek's Return, and Lightning Bolt to get to the late game?
I'd say no because unlike modern, we have to deal with combo decks. We need tools like trinisphere and alike that help us deal with both aggro and combo. That's the reason why I main board trinisphere and not ensnaring bridge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roweboater
I see what you're saying but I like my combo hate in the SB as I play U/G and heavily dislike Cg. Regardless of colour choices, we will always be weaker to combo in game 1 since we run so many colourless lands and can't make room for FoW without losing a lot of business spells that are essential to our game plan. We will always be soft to combo as we can't cast Chalice on turn 1 or Trinisphere turn 1.
With U/G you probably can't. But it's possible to play Chalice - you can play Ancient Tomb for example in a colorless build, or in a colored build you can play Mox Diamond. I could play Chalice in my build and i have tested a little bit with it - i just don't like Chalice very much in the metagame i am facing on xmage (many fair non-blue decks, and Chalice is awful against that), but if i was playing in a GP or a similar event i would probably play it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roweboater
If you're playing GSZ you can also play maindeck Gaddock Teeg and that helps against a decent number of combo decks, especially Storm. And again, Mox Diamond helps to play those cards fast enough.
U/G has not that many options - i don't think U/G is very good (and that was my opinion even before the Top ban, in all my testing my results with U/G were always horrible). You just get some counterspells like Flusterstorm against combo decks, but you need a lot of them to actually beat the combo decks, and then you don't have enough room against aggro decks any more - and you don't even have any really good cards against aggro decks, no good spot removal and no good sweepers. All the other colors have good options against aggro decks, just take your pick. I prefer W and B for a good mix and because W has the best permanent combo hate.
I can understand when people don't want to try my builds, they look like EDH decks after all, but they didn't start that way. The one thing i'm very sure about with my builds is that Mox Diamonds help a lot against combo decks and aggro decks, because they speed up my mana development in the earlygame. The major drawback is the lategame against more grindy decks, but those are still good matchups and overall i'm convinced it pays off. Everything else are eventually just adjustments to make this shell with Mox Diamonds work better and take more advantage of them, but you could go in a completely different direction with that and end up with a deck looking much more like the traditional decks.
How do you beat aggro loam? Basically the deck runs 4 chalice of the void, 4 abrupt decay and 4 knight of the religuary. My pithing needle gets abrupted, followed by a quick knight that repeatedly wastes me until it starts attacking...
Post board; surgical extraction, krosan grip, thought-knot seer, more needles are some of the pieces I board in against them. It's an odd match up. If you are going U/G, show and tell is pretty strong against them. Repeal is also good against Knight puts a reset on them. Biggest is surgical against wasteland so you can focus your needles on the Knight.Quote:
Originally Posted by ratninja
If your meta is heavy aggro loam, just run Dismember and play Standard against them with you having no Cloudposts and them having no Knights. You win that war.Quote:
Originally Posted by ratninja
Dismember - Warping wail - Moment's peace - Relic of Progenitus all share meta slots.
Yes, Mirage Mirror is the real deal.
For GP Vegas, I was going to sleeve up BR Reanimator. But once I got to that glorious city, I couldn't resist playing the deck that I was born to play. In the spirit of the capital of gambling, I decided to risk it and play this brew that I had never actually played before:
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm
3 Maze of Ith
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
2 All Is Dust
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Crop Rotation
4 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Expedition Map
3 Pithing Needle
SB:
4 Flusterstorm
4 Surgical Extraction
3 Krosan Grip
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Before you all immediately dismiss my build, let me explain a couple of things. Rather than being another version of the "stock" UG 12Post, this build is more of a modification of theboozecube's awesome colorless green build, but with blue added for cantrips. Ancient Stirrings is great, but I like the card filtering of full sets of Brainstorm and Ponder just a little bit more. Additionally, I feel like the 7-8 slots used for basic Forests in the colorless green build could very easily be adjusted to accommodate an additional color, at the cost of some mana stability.
Despite never playing this version before, I was able to pull off a 6-3 record day 1 to make the cut to day 2, where I went 3-3 to end with a final 9-6 record. Not too shabby. Not sure if I will write up a full report, but my matchups by round were:
1: Sneak and Show (Omni/Sneak hybrid) - Loss
2: Mono Red Werewolf Stompy - Loss
3: Opponent immediately conceded to go play in side events - Win
4: Sneak and Show (No Omni) - Win
5: Infect - Loss
6: Shardless BUG - Win
7: Mono Red Human Stompy - Win
8: ANT - Win
9: Death and Taxes - Win
So after starting 0-2 and later being at 2-3, I was able to pull off a miraculous comeback of sorts to win out and make it to day 2 (for GP Vegas, I came only to play Legacy). Day 2:
10: Grixis Delver - Loss
11: BUG Delver - Loss
12: UB Reanimator - Win
13: Sneak and Show (No Omni) - Win
14: Big Eldrazi - Win
15: RUG Delver - Loss
Overall I was happy to finish as well as I did with this funky build. Oddly enough, I dropped a lot of the fair matchups that I happened to get paired up against, but was able to win a lot of the difficult combo ones. The Mono Red Human Stompy win was mostly due to my opponent drawing horribly. All of the Sol Land/Chalice decks that I faced seemed really unstable, often having issues drawing into enough mana to cast spells. I have some reflections on this particular build of Post:
Pros
With plenty of 3 and 4 of's, the deck seemed very streamlined and consistent at pulling off its own gameplan. The inclusion of the full four Maps is very important, since it gives the deck a colorless way to get its engine going. Top used to do so much work in this regard, so maximizing other colorless plays like Map seems like the next best thing. With plenty of big threats (4 Eldrazi, 2 Ugin), it never seemed too difficult to find a powerful win condition to cash in on all of the mana.
The assortment of combo hate was surprisingly very effective. In my old builds pre-Top banning, I would always sideboard Force of Will to compliment the other hate cards. In this version, there would have been too few blue cards but I wouldn't have needed them anyway. Flusterstorm has always been the premier non-Force counterspell to me, being able to side it in even against non-combo cards (like Cataclysm in Death and Taxes). It was another one of the big reasons that I opted to include blue in the deck. Also, Phyrexian Revoker ended up doing a ton of work when I needed it to. Pre-emptive combo hate is especially important, now that we don't have Top to hide the reactive answers. Boozecube usually has Sphere of Resistance in this spot, but I felt that Revoker would provide an answer in more matchups (Sneak and Show, for examples). It ended up being the correct replacement for me, even though Sphere would probably have been better against Elves if I had faced it.
Cons
This build really needed more early permanent removal, especially in the face of several Magus of the Moon. Unlike Blood Moon being easily answered by Grip, this version has no such answer for Magus. I would definitely add some Repeals to the maindeck if I were to play this version again. Most likely, I would go -1 Ponder, -1 Maze of Ith, -1 All Is Dust for +3 Repeal. Then an Engineered Explosives or Ratchet Bomb for further early removal in the sideboard (-1 Surgical Extraction for +1 Engineered Explosives, most likely). Removal that costs 7 mana or more doesn't always cut it.
Maze of Iths were nice but only for so long. A couple of times I would be staving off damage with a Maze or two plus a Candle, only to have an opponent drop a Needle and end it almost immediately. This is another reason for me wanting to diversity answers and include Repeal.
Compared to my older builds, I really missed Show and Tell. The deck having a relatively quick way to threaten the opponent is something that no other card comes close to doing; this is something that I have always argued for in favor of Show and Tell. Being forced to win through your main plan of Cloudposts can be a real liability when you could have the option to include a quick Show and Tell plan B. I would not simply add Show and Tells into this build without adding Primeval Titans first (thus completely changing the makeup of the deck), but the absence of both cards really feels like a lost opportunity for this deck.
In the end, I had a blast playing this strategy as always and will continue fighting the good fight. Hope you enjoy reading this small summary!
Great write up, thanks for taking the time! I have never seen a UG list without SnT and Titans. Good job on sticking it out and making it to day 2 too. I run warping wail main to help with combo, but all of my spatial contortions are in the side. A one of wastes does help with casting them against magus if I can to search it up. I tried repeal in testing a couple of times and really liked it. Its too bad it doesn't get a chalice, but it is helpful for bloodmoon effects.Quote:
Originally Posted by into_play
Questions...there are a ton of 1 drops in your deck. Do you just die to a chalice T1? I switched my version of monogreen primetime closer to a C/g list with lots of one drops and it was rough when I faced a chalice on one. I dropped an ancient stirrings for a sylvan scrying, and a map for a reclamation sage to search up with gsz. Both put in a bit of work last night at a small tourney.
Also, I've been using World Breaker as a 1 of for awhile now, and its been fantastic. Cast ability plus the occasional recursion are both good.
Chalice is one of the main reasons I've been running the Ratchet Bombs in the board. If you drop it on T2 and start ticking right away, it can also be a serviceable colorless answer to Blood Moon and Magus if you're splashing blue and don't have reliable access to Krosan Grip.Quote:
Originally Posted by nimkee
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This is a really interesting build. Before Warping Wail was printed, I tried a light blue splash for countermagic a few times in combo-heavy metas. I didn't like the mana instability, but the approach definitely has merit.Quote:
Originally Posted by into_play
I'm most curious why you went with Ponder over Stirrings? I get Brainstorm for sure, but Stirrings has always felt like a super-Ponder to me because it sees five cards deep vs Ponder's max of four (with the fourth one being a blind draw).
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I just took a look at your list on the FB group. I do like that 2 of, and will have to give it a try. We have a ton of Chalice in my meta, though the blood moon craze has settled down some.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBoozeCube
What matches do you bring the 1 of dark depths in from the board?
It's mostly for decks where both racing is critical and where they can't interact with the token. So mostly Burn, combo, Eldrazi, Blood Moon Stompy.Quote:
Originally Posted by nimkee
There's also an inordinate amount of Blood Moon Stompy in my local meta, so Ratchet Bomb has been pretty key for me.
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Where do you see it fitting into the archetype?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
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I like the UG variant and respect bringing it in against a gauntlet of delver and sneaky show with mostly sorcery answers.Quote:
Originally Posted by into_play
I have taken this approach to the meta with a mono green build. It might need ancient stirrings, but for now I'm happy with this spread of just running heavier lands and more answers:
// Lands
1 [LG] Karakas
2 [TSP] Vesuva
3 [MR] Cloudpost
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [V12] Glacial Chasm
1 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
10 [TSP] Forest (4)
1 [OGW] Wastes (2)
// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [BFZ] Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
3 [GPX] Primeval Titan
1 [M15] Reclamation Sage
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 [OGW] Kozilek, the Great Distortion
// Spells
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
4 [JU] Living Wish
3 [OGW] Warping Wail
3 [NPH] Dismember
2 [MR] Sylvan Scrying
2 [OGW] Spatial Contortion
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Vesuva
SB: 1 [MR] Cloudpost
SB: 1 [GPX] Primeval Titan
SB: 1 [M15] Reclamation Sage
SB: 4 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 [EMA] Nature's Claim
SB: 1 [M15] Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 [OGW] Thought-Knot Seer
SB: 1 [AER] Walking Ballista
SB: 1 [C15] Bane of Progress
This is my pre-mirror meta build. Once Mirror comes out, the floodgates are going to be released, to include current testing.
I see the potential of Mirage Mirror the only problem I have with it is the mana cost makes it very slow. 3 to drop, 2 to activate and target what? Doesn't work well with all the creatures in the deck. Seems slower clunky version of Thespian's Stage. Copy a Candelabra? Why not just run another Candelabra? So target opponents items? Which items are going to be beneficial? Now, I can see how this would work really well in a MUD build. Copy a metal worker, Grim monolith, Sundering Titan, Temporary Chalice on 0.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
Benefits I see is mainly Dark Depths. Easy way to pump out Marit Lage outside of Thespian's Stage or Vamp Hexmage. Good to turn into opponents creature and chump block, then transform before damage is dealt to keep it on the board. Problem with those situations is the deck has other ways of doing this with much more efficiency. How would this card improve our bad matchups?
I am missing something on its' usefulness in a cloudpost build?
Card doesn't work with sundering titan. Think more phyrexian dreadnaught type abuse, counter abuse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skriger
The card always ramps (cloudpost count) -1 mana, often more, is a blocker in the face of aggression, is a combo facilitator, doesn't use a land drop so it is acceleration, can dodge removal, and is an answer to multiple combo decks in the meta (sneaky, omni and reanimator). You really won't get much more from a single card.
This seems like it was designed for ug titan post? What do you think?
http://www.magicspoiler.com/mtg-spoiler/ug-sorcery/
Ug sorcery with aftermath
U
Scry 3
//
4G
Aftermath
Look at the top card of your library. If it’s a creature card, you may reveal it and put it onto the battlefield. Otherwise, put that card into your hand.
Maybe. I wouldnt feel comfortable running it with all the drs running around. I have to wait until someone uses drs main as it is with my moments peace.Quote:
Originally Posted by ratninja
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Thank you! Admittedly, a Chalice on 1 is brutal against me. The only time I faced a Chalice was one of the games that I lost to the Werewolf Stompy, so I did get extremely lucky dodging the card. For that reason, I think it would be wise to include at least one Engineered Explosives (or Ratchet Bomb) main and then possibly a second one in the side. This is another reason for me to want to return to Show and Tell (a cheap way to get a threat).Quote:
Originally Posted by nimkee
The main reason I chose Ponder over Stirrings was the ability to find Crop Rotation. More than any other card (including even Cloudpost), I find myself cantriping early for one of the two Wasteland answers (Needle or Crop). Having all my cantrips be able to find both of those answers was invaluable. I do know the power of Ancient Stirrings, though. I suppose you could replace the Ponders with Stirrings, but I would then definitely increase the number of Pithing Needles to the maximum four.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBoozeCube
Very interesting build. It's mind-blowing to me how Living Wish is not yet a $20 card, considering there is already a land-based combo (Stage/Depths) not to mention endless numbers of land and creature bullets. I might have to try something similar, as I've been waiting to bust Living Wish. I would definitely include a second Cavern in the wish board, as well as another Eye of Ugin most likely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
One of my only qualms about these monogreen manabases are the large number of basic Forests. I get that you gain a lot of extra stability, but it just feels like those spaces could be filled with something better, very easily.
Also, how has Dismember performed for you? In theory, it's exactly the kind of card that I would want for a deck with the two colors that can't kill creatures. I like it for killing creatures with nasty static abilities (Magus of the Moon and Sanctum Prelate) but the life loss seems too painful when used against Delver and Deathrite decks. I guess the card seems to have too much drawback for not enough versatility, but maybe you have made great use of it?
I'm uncertain whether I'll continue developing my most recent list. This past weekend made me feel much more confident about running my older "stock" lists but swapping Tops with Ponders. Losing Top is certainly painful, but the weakness of the deck as a whole has most likely been overstated. Ponders can do a fine job setting up a Show and Tell. And I might finally have enough blue cards to be a real Force of Will deck...
I should have some free time to stream this week if anyone is interested, possibly as early as tonight. I'll certainly post here if I do. One thing that intrigues me is that Eureka and Forcefield are dirt cheap online, so if I was ever to test them, now is the time. I still have a multi-color idea with Cascading Cataracts in my head, so I might as well try it for grins.
I'm going to be streaming some Post at about 9PM EST, which is about 20 minutes from now. Come watch an appropriate amount of shenanigans and failure!
http://www.twitch.tv/zotmaster
thanks for all the work you do! how have you like dropping ugin/all is dust!? how do hou deal with midrange stoneblade decksQuote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
http://i.imgur.com/hPnnNkp.png
Non-repeatable/non S&Table Titan effect for 1 less mana. Interesting though.
seems okay in maybe u/g. been playing the mono green variant with living wish and been squashing people. 6-0ed agaisnt a string of blue decks from delver to leo/tnn. big red, elves, and nic fit. living wish is amazing. instead of the 3 dismembers i run 2 ugin and a planar bridge lol. actually won me a few with bridge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis
Can u post ur list please?Quote:
Originally Posted by prdgchild