Not sure chalice should stay in against DnT. They have a lot of ways around it and it doesn't win us the game like in other marches
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Not sure chalice should stay in against DnT. They have a lot of ways around it and it doesn't win us the game like in other marches
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This list, quite frankly, looks horrible. Cmc5 in multiple slots, 2 Crystal Veins... It's plain bad. I would get my head checked if I ever sleeved this up. The rest of the T8 sports classics such as Fact or Fiction, and the ever popular Night's Whisper.Quote:
Originally Posted by Manipulato
Cmc 6 Chandra... Go big, and go home.
EDIT: take out Chalice vs DnT. Torpor Orb is way way too narrow an effect. Even Sulfur Elemental is better, as it's an uncounterable threat. Up you threat density.
I'm usually playing the other side of the matchup, but you should take out your Chalices against D&T for sure.
How do people feel about the sweeper-heavy lists that have been popping up recently? I haven't played the deck much in about the last two months, but was going to revisit it for some side events this weekend. Those maindeck sweepers would be doing the work that cards like Volcanic Fallout have done in the past in the sideboard, so I can see where it is coming from. I don't like that many of those versions are running less than 4 Magus though; playing 8 moon effects is one of the reasons I like this shell. I'm also a little unsure how I feel about Crystal Vein.
Quote:
Originally Posted by frogger42
I kind of feel like sulfur elemental is not that good since DnT is running a lot of 2 toughness creatures these days. And torpor orb can come in against Snapcaster, Thought-Knot Seer, and Elves. Maybe spellskite would be better option though. I'm going to put 2 Orb's in my sideboard and try them out at least.
Sulfur Elemental is great against D&T. It invalidates Mom, Thalia, Flickerwisp, and Recruiter (14 cards in most shells these days) It makes the short lists of cards I never want to play against along with Massacre, Dread of Night, and Kozilek's Return. The question you have to ask is, "Do I want to run narrow cards that are largely for D&T or do I want to run more generic cards that will have applications elsewhere?" I've always thought that the 4x Sulfur Elemental plan was a touch aggressive. I think I like Abrade as a happy medium card that can deal with a wide spectrum of D&T's stuff while having wide application elsewhere. Pair a few of those with a couple of sweepers, and you likely end up with better percentage points across the field.Quote:
Originally Posted by NormalGuy
It doesn't stop Glimpse. It stops about 6 slots, maybe 7 in the deck. Sounds weaksauce.Quote:
Originally Posted by NormalGuy
I feel like Sulfur Elemental isn't super good against Flickerwisp and Recruiter because you still get the ETB triggers. I do really like it against Monastary Mentor decks though. Kozilek's Return is another thing I want to try, but my stompy build runs lots of small creatures, so I'll end up sweeping myself too. I guess Anarchy is always an option.Quote:
Originally Posted by Medea_
It stops Rac Sage, which protects your bridge/chalice, which is all I really care about against elves. I probably am overestimating how good it is though.Quote:
Originally Posted by frogger42
Monastery Mentor and Gitaxian Probe are restricted in Vintage. That should give some indication to the cards power and as such I think legacy players are still underestimating the power of mentor. If Mentor+Probe becomes more widespread, Sulfur Elemental will gain more relevance. My opinion is that Sulfur Elemental is already very good, but you want to use it as a removal spell. When you play Sulfur Elemental on an empty-ish board, it will just eat a removal spell, or the player will cast a Stoneforge Mystic and grab a Jitte instead and answer it. You want to kill off 2 or 3 creatures (preferably Flickerwisp and mom) upon casting it and use it as a roadblock that must be answered as you play. If they answer it, you've already destroyed several turns and several cards with Sulfur Elemental.Quote:
Originally Posted by NormalGuy
The big picture point here is that when you board cards out [with this deck] you need to board in cards that aren't narrow [in a normal meta]. Torpor orb willnot win you the game but sulfur elementals will. Double up on them just once on the battlefield and if you don't get an immediate concession they have a hand full of cards that'll just keep them in the game. Anarchy is also narrow but I'm still a proponent because for a certain meta its not narrow at all. Heed advice, i cant speak for others but you're better off going wide with sulfur elementals than letting them go wide on you (cuz torpor orb doesnt kill their stuff)Quote:
Originally Posted by NormalGuy
You'll be disappointed with Spellskite. I was.Quote:
Originally Posted by NormalGuy
I think you are being unfair. The other 7 decklists in that top 8 are typical decks anyone would face in a competitive meta. Night's Whisper is very standard as a 1-of in Czech Pile, and FoF as a 1-of in Miracles doesn't seem wildly outlandish.Quote:
Originally Posted by frogger42
Here's the search results for 'Night's Whisper', filtering for Legacy, according to TC Decks: http://tcdecks.net/results.php?token...ide=&strict=on
Crystal Vein is standard as the budget replacement of City of Traitors. I feel confident the pilot made that choice out of necessity and not because he thinks it is an improvement to the manabase.
I also feel the Stompy list is top-heavy, but if you look at that top 8 it's either slow control lists or decks we're favored against anyway (3/4 color lists and Lands). If the entire room was similar, then he picked the correct 75 for the day.
For those of you running bottled cloister what matchups do you bring it in for? It doesn't seem like there is are very many decks out there that want to running a ton of discard. Is it because it's a CA engine that also synergies with bridge?
As an FYI the MTGO meta is very oversaturated with 4c Control decks so I imagine with the right luck you can easily go X-0 with 8 moons in your deck. Sammy's list looks a lot like the walker stompy list that JKory was rocking at GP Seattle a couple of years ago.
I run cloister against d&t, 4c control, stoneblade, and miracles. Against decks running k-command I don't play it until my hand is empty. Having the 5th "draw 2 per turn" effect on top of your 4 chandra really helps mitigate flooding and helps us close the game before they find their answer in the form of basics, something to kill chalice, ee, bridge, etc...Quote:
Originally Posted by CptHaddock
When the new planeswalker rule comes into effect I plan on trying to replace it with chandra, pyromaster. Avaricious Dragon also worked in testing, although it can sometimes get awkward and you throw away a powerful card or two, but we can often do that with zero consequences. If I played a more aggressive build without bridge main I'd probably run that.
Other than being top-heavy I agree, I think this list is innovative and it's exactly how I would approach an aggressive list in th current meta. A huge advantage of cmc 5 creatures is dodging fatal push. The creature suite in this list dodges everything except sac effects and STP. Replacing bridge with 4 additional sweepers gives you insurance against them winning the race.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew
I will say having played probably 400+ matches with this deck that cmc5 cards can be very hard to cast on curve though, and he's running 2 fewer mana sources than I do in a lower curve list. But he's done well in the challenges 2 weeks in a row, so maybe it's worked out for him so far.
Fatal Push noted... I think this guy got really lucky. I run 3 more mana sources than this list plus I almost top out at cmc3; that said, i have trouble finding R every now and then (I don't run RR spells). Moons punish every deck in the T8 other than Miracles, which he can use Earthquake board effects to stabilize. It seems like he mulls into a Moon, then 5+ turns later scrounges up the lands to drop a threat. Sometimes my games are Chalice, sit behind Chalice until I rip a substantial threat. Except most of my games actually go really tight even after I land a prison piece. I'm still really against this uneven list.Quote:
Originally Posted by pinkfrosting
Cards not represented - Thalia DnT, Goyf, Rean/Show, Storm combo. Fatties and Thalia all look like major problems for this deck.
The list seems doable, sort of, in this weird meta, but I would never ever take it into an open field. It looks less innovative and way more of a meta deck.
Hey guys,
I will play a medium sized turney tomorrow and will ride this baby the 1st time...
Would you guys be so kind and give me a short sideboarding guide for matchups like Grixis Delver, Team America, DnT & Elves?
Its easy to bring in the right cards (Volcanic Fallout, Abrade, Sulfur Elemental vs DnT) but I have problems in what to take out tbh.
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Quicksmith Rebel
2 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
2 Jaya Ballard Task Mage
4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4 Fiery Confluence
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Chrome Mox
11 Mountain
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Volcanic Fallout
3 Abrade
3 Sulfur Elemental
1 Trinisphere
I builded this list to fight challenging creature based MU's and wanted to get rid of "I do nothing execpt for attacking" things like Rabblemaster and replaced it with creatures that can attack and kill dudes...The clock vs unfair decks is of course slower which can hurt the combo MU's a little bit but I think I can live with this.
Against D&T you'll want to take out Chalice and Trinisphere at least. Against elves chalice on 1 is the best, and ensnaring bridge is good too, but they have Rec Sage to blow them up. As always you need to kill wirewood symbiote as fast as possible to shut off their shenanigans. Early Blood Moon is also usually good if you can keep them off green, so you might want to drop blood moons for Volcanic Fallout if you are on the draw, and keep in blood moons on the play. I haven't had any problems racing delver decks by just attacking with a bunch of small creatures, but that's not going to work with your build I don't think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Manipulato
But I think your deck might have a bigger problem with not having enough pressure. It looks like your main plan is going to be sitting behind bridge. In that case I would at least move the trinisphere's to the sideboard and put in 3x Koth of the Hammer, or maybe Sin Prodder. Your Volcanic Fallout's also hit all your own creatures, leaving you with just Chandra to do damage. Kozilek's return would be better then Volcanic Fallout against decks with Mother of Runes, but worse against blue decks.
Good luck tomorrow, it'll be interesting to hear how you do.
Oh yeah Kozileks Return is colorless, totally forgot that.Quote:
Originally Posted by NormalGuy
Well my plan with this build is not to hide behind a bridge at all, its to control the board with Quicksmith, Pia+Kiran & Jaya by killing all the x/2s in the format. The clock is slower on an empty board because Rabblemaster is super agressive here but when theres sitting a 2/2 in the other side of the table hes a poor dude, my alternatives just kill this guy and swing for 3-4 damage.
I think Pia and Kiran Nalaar are a bit underplayed tbh.
The point about the antisynergy between my smaller dudes and sweepers is true yes but timing and sequencing can improve this fact a bit I think.
We will see how it worked out for me and maybe I talk the oposite afterwards ^^ Who knows...
Be aware that Quicksmith Rebel is only a 3/2 without an artifact in play (also know that tapping Trinisphere turns it off). If you are relying on him in X/2 creature heavy matchups then boarding out 7 artifacts is tempting fate. I have found CotV helpful against D&T. It stops at least 12 very important cards. I usually board out 3balls and some combination of Moons and Maguses.
I actually think you are wasting some board space because you have 4 Fiery Confluence in the main. Against a deck like Elves!, Pyrokinesis will be your best friend. I'd consider dropping an Elemental and Fallout for 2 kinesis.
I don't know how much you want to board against Team America... You're built to beat them.
Grixis you'll want Fallouts. I'd consider boarding out some 3balls (1... maaaybe 2) and Quicksmiths.
Good luck tomorrow! Your rounds will be short, so use the extra time to scout the room. It will help with the extremely important mulligan decisions you'll have to make throughout the day!
Chalice is only good until they drop a flickerwisp. I consider it one of the weaker cards, it slows them down for the first few turns if you're lucky. Against them I cut trinisphere, magus, and 3 chalice. I leave in 4 moons because they can wreck us with wasteland/port. I board in 4 kozilek's return, 2 fallout, and 2 null rod which had actually been great lately because it's good in a lot of matchups. K-return is hugely underplayed and has won me countless games against d&t, elves, a few against the rare goblins player and maverick player. It kills teeg too which is important at times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew
I board in 2 fallout against grixis and cut koth and one chandra. Trinisphere is great against tempo, I always run all 4. Resolving any lock piece is always priority here, the struggle afterward is dealing with the creatures they resolved before we lock them out. Chandra is often just a 4 mana flame slash in this scenario, I'd much rather have a sweeper or another prison card
I don't disagree, but Wisping a chalice is most likely in game one. The dedicated D&T pilots I've talked too say they board out :w::w: spells for games 2 and 3. But of course, your mileage may vary. :wink: