Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Asthereal
The 12 cantrips usually find me a business spell fast enough, and I get a lot less awkward hands with 2x Wish and an Infernal. Also the extra fetch land helps cantripping and reduces the chance of drawing no-landers.
The extra wish can be used as a nice card for the Chrome Mox. Also, if you have 2 in hand and a bunch of mana spells with enough land/Mox to cast one, you can throw one out there to force out a counterspell (pun intended). Having the ability to throw it out and smoke check works pretty well. You can also get a card out of the board they don't expect, which then makes them start thinking.... "What is this guy thinking grabbing XYZ out of the board with a grip full of cards and using his Wish on THAT!?". I've grabbed a Diminishing Returns before to bluff if on the next turn, and it changes people's line of play when it might not matter. I like the 4 wishes seeing as how it is great with AN and Chrome Mox. Having 4 gives the best chance of "finding" a PiF after AN, which is game.
I also ran 4 because I used to run a 2/1 split on Abrupt Decay/Hull Breach, because my meta was full of Counterbalance decks. Having a game 1 answer to a quick top into Counterbalance would let me trick them into using mana to counter something like a Dark Ritual, then once they set a 1 on top with no mana open you can drop 0 mana things and go into the board for a Hull Breach and blow up the Counterbalance.
Also I think it works this way, but if you Hull Breach targeting a Counterbalance AND a Top, if they respond by drawing with the Top, does that counter the entire Hull Breach??? I don't think it does, since it has 2 legal targets, only 1 is no longer there. It isn't like a, "Do X to target Y. Draw", where if Y is gone you don't draw. Right?
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Hull Breach will resolve. Spells are only countered by game rules if ALL targets are illegal. Otherwise they do as much as possible.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
I've been past the point of trying to convince people to play my decklist which I consider optimal. I do plenty of theorizing as well as testing, actual gameplay as well as running the deck in large events. If other people want to run a decklist that isn't mine, I don't really care, it's their own fault if they're unsuccessful. I understand that metagames often dictate slots, but I can't think of a single reason to shave off a Burning Wish. Others can do what they would like, I'll keep producing numbers.
While you won't immediately notice the lack of the fourth Burning Wish, put that card upside down in the sleeve and compare situations to which you would prefer the other. Most of the time Burning Wish will be more valuable than an additional land.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
akatsuki
Might I ask what differences your list has with the list in the primer and why?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Asthereal
Lemnear usually plays the exact same 75 as in the opening post.
See his five tourney reports "Heart of the Storm" in his signature.
Keep in mind the sideboard changes -1 Gains, -1 Decay, +1 Trop, +1 Swarm are very new.
Right now I believe Lemnear tests the main deck change -1 Chrome Mox, +1 fetch land.
Another main deck change that is being tested in the Netherlands is -1 Burning Wish, +1 fetch land.
I personally believe that last change could be an overall improvement to the deck, but it's designer Bryant disagrees. :wink:
So now you know the different TES lists that are being tried. All changes are small ones.
Skill will make a much bigger difference than playing an optimal list, whatever it may be.
If you ever wished for a Diminishing Returns and removed 2 more Wishes or several Tutors/Wishes overall, you'll notice why the list in the primer has 4 Wishes. Aside from that I love to burn them for Cabal Therapies to slice through dedicated control or clear fields with Grapeshot to combo off next turns.
@changes:
I've ran tournaments without IGG and was called an idiot, so I feel good now that this change is inevitable post DRS/RIP. Even in the HotS-Reports I toyed around with several SB switches. I added the third Swarm as well a Pyroclasm to the SB. I never thought about needing that crappy sweeper but I saw a lot of Thalia-Goblins and hatebear-decks overalll and expect those for BoM too. In addition to those there are tempo-decks everywhere and I saw myself less and less able to fully Profit from the speed of 3 Moxen and had to battle through a shitload of taxing effects lately which I rather adress with a MB switch than the SB in case of a common Problem (topic 1: SB land; topic 2: more stable mana to Wish -> Therapy through defense without carddisadvantage).
Sooooo .... to adress taxing hatebears and more tempo-decks I have -1 Mox +1 Fetch, -1 Tropical, +1 Pyroclasm in my 75. i feel stupid with the Clasm and may adjust that slot once more if my impressions from Friday show me, that all the Miracles-player from Italy made their way to Paris.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
I've been past the point of trying to convince people to play my decklist which I consider optimal. I do plenty of theorizing as well as testing, actual gameplay as well as running the deck in large events. If other people want to run a decklist that isn't mine, I don't really care, it's their own fault if they're unsuccessful. I understand that metagames often dictate slots, but I can't think of a single reason to shave off a Burning Wish. Others can do what they would like, I'll keep producing numbers.
While you won't immediately notice the lack of the fourth Burning Wish, put that card upside down in the sleeve and compare situations to which you would prefer the other. Most of the time Burning Wish will be more valuable than an additional land.
The additional piece of business isn't that important. You board out an Infernal Tutor or a Ponder often, putting you at the same amount of business as me. I never do this by the way. If I ever board out business, it's a Burning Wish, because it is in my opinion by far the worst piece of business in the deck. Also, you were running a list with -1 EtW +1 ToA for the longest time which is essentially 1 piece of business less, and it wasn't a problem for you then.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bahamuth
The additional piece of business isn't that important. You board out an Infernal Tutor or a Ponder often, putting you at the same amount of business as me. I never do this by the way. If I ever board out business, it's a Burning Wish, because it is in my opinion by far the worst piece of business in the deck. Also, you were running a list with -1 EtW +1 ToA for the longest time which is essentially 1 piece of business less, and it wasn't a problem for you then.
Except that now you're down a business spell in match-ups where you need to win quickly, lowering your percentages to win on the first turn.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
Except that now you're down a business spell in match-ups where you need to win quickly, lowering your percentages to win on the first turn.
As far as I'm concerned I need to win quickly in every matchup.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bahamuth
As far as I'm concerned I need to win quickly in every matchup.
So...you're lowering your percentages of a turn one kill while still expecting to have one? You're obviously much better at TES than me.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
I don't think the MD and SB are constant, I've tried 4 Chrome Mox, I've tried 3 Chrome Mox, I've tried 4 Silence and 3 Duress, I've tried 3 Silence and 4 Duress, I've tried 4 Duress and 3 Cabal Therapy, I've tried 4 Infernal Tutor, I've tried 3 Infernal Tutor, I've tried 13 lands, I've tried 12 lands, I've tried 4 City of Brass and 2 Gemstone Mines, I've tried 2 Gemstone Mines and 4 City of Brass etc. and everything has a give and take relationship like speed vs resiliency, efficiency vs power, utility vs consistency etc. to the point where I'm pretty sure there are functional equivalents with minor strengths and weaknesses over each other.
I have found 2 Chrome Mox to just be really bad tho' in testing, winning off a Dim Ret is really hard with only 2.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Final Fortune
I don't think the MD and SB are constant, I've tried 4 Chrome Mox, I've tried 3 Chrome Mox, I've tried 4 Silence and 3 Duress, I've tried 3 Silence and 4 Duress, I've tried 4 Duress and 3 Cabal Therapy, I've tried 4 Infernal Tutor, I've tried 3 Infernal Tutor, I've tried 13 lands, I've tried 12 lands, I've tried 4 City of Brass and 2 Gemstone Mines, I've tried 2 Gemstone Mines and 4 City of Brass etc. and everything has a give and take relationship like speed vs resiliency, efficiency vs power, utility vs consistency etc. to the point where I'm pretty sure there are functional equivalents with minor strengths and weaknesses over each other.
I have found 2 Chrome Mox to just be really bad tho' in testing, winning off a Dim Ret is really hard with only 2.
Isn't it always bad to Dim.Ret. without having mana float and already had your landdrop? One Mox more doesn't make much difference if you have to generate 6+ mana outta nothing (aka 7 cards with at least one Wish removed)
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
So...you're lowering your percentages of a turn one kill while still expecting to have one? You're obviously much better at TES than me.
I never mentioned a desire to win turn 1 as often as possible, just that I'd like to win fast. I could argue that you're increasing your percentages to mulligan. They are both no real argument.
That ad hominem is pretty pathetic, but I'll defend myself. Even if you're better at playing TES than me, which might be the case, I'm pretty sure I'm better at building TES than you. We've been running the configuration with 4 Probes and an EtW in the mainboard way, way longer than you, and it is currently agreed upon as the right choice. In this current case, I don't think there's any way to determine if either option is plain better than the other, but your line of reasoning of 'I'm Bryant Cook so my list is better' is just sad.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bahamuth
I never mentioned a desire to win turn 1 as often as possible, just that I'd like to win fast. I could argue that you're increasing your percentages to mulligan. They are both no real argument.
That ad hominem is pretty pathetic, but I'll defend myself. Even if you're better at playing TES than me, which might be the case, I'm pretty sure I'm better at building TES than you. We've been running the configuration with 4 Probes and an EtW in the mainboard way, way longer than you, and it is currently agreed upon as the right choice. In this current case, I don't think there's any way to determine if either option is plain better than the other, but your line of reasoning of 'I'm Bryant Cook so my list is better' is just sad.
Burning Wish increases percentages of mulligans? One could argue that the additional land not being a business spell more often could cause a mulligan.
Sure, you're better at deckbuilding TES than me - whatever get's you by. I put countless time into tweaking my deck. I've taken a suggestion from the boards every once in awhile, more often than not the ideas posted here are pretty awful. From time to time there's a valid comment, but I find it pretty hard to believe that you claim to innovate the archetype more than me. I don't remember if the Empty the Warrens suggestion was you or not, that was a decent argument. Even so, that's incredibly small in the grand scheme of things. Also, Gitaxian Probe certainly was not a move you can claim to take credit for.
The "I'm Bryant Cook, I've put time into testing and know my deck in and out" holds more value then the "I tried this once, I think it was good?"
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
Burning Wish increases percentages of mulligans? One could argue that the additional land not being a business spell more often could cause a mulligan.
You could, and it's still not a solid argument. Let's stop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
Sure, you're better at deckbuilding TES than me - whatever get's you by. I put countless time into tweaking my deck. I've taken a suggestion from the boards every once in awhile, more often than not the ideas posted here are pretty awful. From time to time there's a valid comment, but I find it pretty hard to believe that you claim to innovate the archetype more than me. I don't remember if the Empty the Warrens suggestion was you or not, that was a decent argument. Even so, that's incredibly small in the grand scheme of things. Also, Gitaxian Probe certainly was not a move you can claim to take credit for.
I can guarantee you that adding Gitaxian Probe was a decision me and my team made well before anyone else was doing it. Here's a decklist from GP Amsterdam back from 2011, where one of my teammates made top 32 with a list that has the exact same mainboard as what I'd currently run.
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=939980
While you were still arguing Probe is a bad card here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...obe#post615247
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
The "I'm Bryant Cook, I've put time into testing and know my deck in and out" holds more value then the "I tried this once, I think it was good?"
Who are you exactly to tell me I haven't put time into testing and know my deck in and out? I'm pretty sure the list I linked above shows you that I most certainly didn't just try this once and it was good.
AFAIK, the bottom line is that we can't show each other what configuration is better. I just came here to state that it's not obvious that 4 Wish 12 land is the better configuration at all.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bahamuth
You could, and it's still not a solid argument. Let's stop.
I look forward to seeing your results with three Burning Wish and thirteen lands.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bahamuth
I've admitted to being wrong in the past. This was one of those situations, I've said it before. However, I do not believe that I am wrong about this. It's very easy to post a decklist and claim to have been influential to it. ANT at the time had also been running Gitaxian Probe as well, all this person did was port over one of their ideas. Perhaps if there was a fourth Burning Wish, your "friend" would've made top 8 due to a higher tutor percentage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bahamuth
Who are you exactly to tell me I haven't put time into testing and know my deck in and out? I'm pretty sure the list I linked above shows you that I most certainly didn't just try this once and it was good.
AFAIK, the bottom line is that we can't show each other what configuration is better. I just came here to state that it's not obvious that 4 Wish 12 land is the better configuration at all.
It's pretty obvious to anyone who's done their homework.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Grudge match on MWS? Can I watch???
Serious question though: are there any good players who might stream TES? I'm trying to learn the deck and while watching coverage and playing games is helpful, what would be even better is simply watching a stream and have the player explain their thought process.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
I look forward to seeing your results with three Burning Wish and thirteen lands.
Yea, cause results are just the best possible argument there is. I don't write reports on every tournament I do well in. I don't even play that many tournaments. I've done well enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
I've admitted to being wrong in the past. This was one of those situations, I've said it before. However, I do not believe that I am wrong about this.
Please think about this for a second. At the time, did you think you were wrong about Probe? No you didn't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
It's very easy to post a decklist and claim to have been influential to it. ANT at the time had also been running Gitaxian Probe as well, all this person did was port over one of their ideas.
There weren't many people running Probe in ANT, but even so, Probe has a vastly different role in TES than it has in ANT, and you know that too. We added the Probes because they are amazing with Emtpy the Warrens, both because they give you the information required to learn if you can do EtW for the win, and because it makes 2 more tokens. You might notice that we were running additional EtW in the sideboard as I have been advocating a while back. It was a serious improvement to the RUG matchup, and still is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
Perhaps if there was a fourth Burning Wish, your "friend" would've made top 8 due to a higher tutor percentage.
This sentence takes the fucking cake. First of all, are you really going to question if I'm legit in claiming this guy is my teammate? Really? You think I'd just found that one decklist online that was just right to support my claim, from a person that just happens to have a Dutch name, and decided to claim it as my own? Really? I'm sure Asthereal can clean up your suspicion.
Second of all, that statement is just stupid. You didn't seem to understand that I'm not linking this list to show off anything about either running 13 land 3 Wish, nor about his performance. I'm linking it to show you that we've been running Probe forever. I think it's reasonable to defend myself when you deny that credit.
But then the claim that my 'friend' would've made top8 with your list? Wow. You can't get more speculative than that. Maybe if he ran RUG he would've won the entire tournament? Maybe if he was never born, we wouldn't be having this argument right now? Maybe if that one meteor never hit earth, we would all be highly intelligent human-dinosaurs playing Magic telepathically on Jupiter. This argument is nothing but a cheap trick to discredit my point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
It's pretty obvious to anyone who's done their homework.
This post was just pathetic.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bahamuth
Maybe if that one meteor never hit earth, we would all be highly intelligent human-dinosaurs playing Magic telepathically on Jupiter.
And now I can't get the picture out of my head of a T-Rex trying to draw a card... his poor tiny arms means he has to bend all the way down to reach his deck and ends up bopping his opponent every time he goes to draw.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bahamuth
Yea, cause results are just the best possible argument there is. I don't write reports on every tournament I do well in. I don't even play that many tournaments. I've done well enough
Magic is a game highly based on results. If you can't manage to create some with your three Burning Wish list, it says something. You're expecting me to believe that your three Burning Wish list is better when you claim you barely play tournament Magic?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bahamuth
Please think about this for a second. At the time, did you think you were wrong about Probe? No you didn't.
If the day comes in the foreseeable future, that I admit I'm wrong about playing three Burning Wish, I'll personally hand write you a letter apologizing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bahamuth
There weren't many people running Probe in ANT, but even so, Probe has a vastly different role in TES than it has in ANT, and you know that too. We added the Probes because they are amazing with Emtpy the Warrens, both because they give you the information required to learn if you can do EtW for the win, and because it makes 2 more tokens. You might notice that we were running additional EtW in the sideboard as I have been advocating a while back. It was a serious improvement to the RUG matchup, and still is.
Are you admitting that you took your great "innovation" to TES from ANT? There were people running Gitaxian Probe in ANT at the time, like I said. The second Empty is garbage as well, you can keep that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bahamuth
This sentence takes the fucking cake. First of all, are you really going to question if I'm legit in claiming this guy is my teammate? Really? You think I'd just found that one decklist online that was just right to support my claim, from a person that just happens to have a Dutch name, and decided to claim it as my own? Really? I'm sure Asthereal can clean up your suspicion.
Second of all, that statement is just stupid. You didn't seem to understand that I'm not linking this list to show off anything about either running 13 land 3 Wish, nor about his performance. I'm linking it to show you that we've been running Probe forever. I think it's reasonable to defend myself when you deny that credit.
But then the claim that my 'friend' would've made top8 with your list? Wow. You can't get more speculative than that. Maybe if he ran RUG he would've won the entire tournament? Maybe if he was never born, we wouldn't be having this argument right now? Maybe if that one meteor never hit earth, we would all be highly intelligent human-dinosaurs playing Magic telepathically on Jupiter. This argument is nothing but a cheap trick to discredit my point.
I'm supposed to believe everything at face value? I'm not new to the internet.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
Magic is a game highly based on results. If you can't manage to create some with your three Burning Wish list, it says something. You're expecting me to believe that your three Burning Wish list is better when you claim you barely play tournament Magic?
I'm pretty sure I linked a list with 3 Burning Wish that top32'd a GP. I have no idea how to show you any results, nor am I going to put effort in digging them up. One of the last tournaments I played was the Legacy Championship in Rimini of ~100 people that I split the top 4 in. You can go ahead and try to confirm that if you care so much about tournament results.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
If the day comes in the foreseeable future, that I admit I'm wrong about playing three Burning Wish, I'll personally hand write you a letter apologizing.
How kind of you to reply in such a nice and sarcastic way, while completely avoiding that I make a valid point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
Are you admitting that you took your great "innovation" to TES from ANT? There were people running Gitaxian Probe in ANT at the time, like I said.
No. We looked at Probe when we started making storm lists again right after MM got banned. Before the banning, we weren't running storm because several forms of Tempo Thresh were way better. We tested Probe and found it was stupidly good.
But besides, even if people playing ANT were running the card, why does that make a difference? I just explained (which you completely ignored) that Probe is a different card in TES. In your line of reasoning, no one should even get any credit for anything related to storm combo in Legacy, because I'm sure people in vintage had already found you can build Tendrils combo before Legacy existed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
The second Empty is garbage as well, you can keep that.
Not the point of the argument, but I'll respond like you've been responding to me:
Sure, like Probe was garbage for a long time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
I'm supposed to believe everything at face value? I'm not new to the internet.
You ignore pretty much everything I said. Why do you argue with me if you're just going to pick out parts of my post that you think you have a good response against?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
oSeabass
And now I can't get the picture out of my head of a T-Rex trying to draw a card... his poor tiny arms means he has to bend all the way down to reach his deck and ends up bopping his opponent every time he goes to draw.
That's why I included the telepathy!
