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there is no way you are going to assemble the combo fast enough for it to not suck (this card in your hand, 4 mana in play, and 2 cards in their exile). like i said before, why would you ever run this over a better counterspell or a better creature? theres literally nothing in the deck that this is better than.Quote:
Originally Posted by Troll_ov_Grimness
So far, out of 30 total matches, I have been able to use Gemstone Caverns three times. First time, I was able to bring out Lightning Greaves turn 1. Second time, I was able to bring out Lodestone Golem turn 1 with Ancient Tomb and Grim Monolith. Third time, I was able to bring out Chalice with Daze protection. I mean, it was against DnT, but still. So far, I like it. But it has only been useful 1/10 matches. Is that enough to warrant playing the card? All three times, I was impressed. In the late game, especially against blue decks, I think I'd rather have Cavern of Souls. I think it is better than Moxen or Spirit Guides though. It being legendary didn't matter because I am only playing with two copies.
The only two counterspells I had ever played with MUD are Mental Misstep and Mindbreak Trap. But every deck was playing with Mental Misstep.
PS: I am leaning towards Cavern of Souls and Darksteel Citadel over Gemstone Caverns. But when Gemstone Caverns do work, it feels good.
Is it possible the only way to really test if this card is worth it is to use 4 copies? Or are lower numbers (you are only using 2) still going to work?Quote:
Originally Posted by L10
I mean, we can just do math.
With 8 Sol Lands + 0 Gemstone Cavern is, there is a 65.36% chance of having one in the opening hand.
... 1 ... 70.02%
... 2 ... 74.14%
... 3 ... 77.76%
... 4 ... 80.94%
Let's assume that being on play and on draw are equal, then:
0: 65.36%
1: 67.69%
2: 69.75%
3: 71.56%
4: 73.15%
This means that with 1 copy of Gemstone Cavern, it would help you 1/43 matches to have exactly 2 mana on turn 1.
This means that with 2 copy of Gemstone Cavern, it would help you 1/23 matches to have exactly 2 mana on turn 1.
This means that with 3 copy of Gemstone Cavern, it would help you 1/16 matches to have exactly 2 mana on turn 1.
This means that with 4 copy of Gemstone Cavern, it would help you 1/13 matches to have exactly 2 mana on turn 1.
This makes sense. Out of my 30 matches, Gemstone Cavern helped me 3 times in total. However, 2/3 times, I had access to either City of Traitors or Ancient Tomb. On the other hand, with City of Traitors or Ancient Tomb, I have access to 3 mana right off the bat. Also, sometimes, playing City of Traitors on the first turn is a major risk, and having Gemstone Cavern out first makes the decision a lot easier. But overall, I don't think Gemstone Cavern is worth playing because it is ONLY useful on draw AND in your opening hand, and that the chance of getting the boost in acceleration is negligible. While any other land, including Ghost Town has intrinsic value when you draw into it.
Edit: More Math
Assuming the chance of being on play and on draw are equal, the chance of having Gemstone Cavern on DRAW and on your initial hand is:
1: 1/17
2: 1/9
3: 1/6
4: 1/5
This matches up with my experience. I have two copies in my deck and I was able to leyline in Gemstone Cavern in 1/10 matches.
All numbers are derived using the Hypergeometric Calculator.
http://stattrek.com/online-calculato...geometric.aspx
I'ts also important to note that Gemstone Caverns is legendary, so being on the draw with 2 of them in hand is bad and 4 of them will give you awkward topdecks.
Correct, this is precisely why I only play with two copies during testing. Having even three copies may give me awkward top decks on a deck that relies on top decks.
I made this chart mainly as a cheat sheet when I pilot ANT, but this is also relavent when asking the question, "should I jam that Chalice"?
http://i.imgur.com/3NiI7hO.png
This is why on play, Ancient Tomb -> Chalice is the correct call every time. City of Traitors -> Chalice has its own risks too, but against decks with 24 one-drops like Grixis Delver, it may be worth it. Especially against tempo decks because trying to resolve a Chalice on Turn 2 against a deck with Daze, FoW, and BS is grim. And this does not even take consideration of Spell Pierce. This is also why against Grixis Delver on draw, I would either jam Chalice Turn 1 or try to bait out a counterspell out on Turn 1. This is because waiting a turn to play around Daze doesn't really help, especially if a) they didn't have Daze and b) opens them up to BS for a counterspell. Playing MUD is all about figuring out the risk and reward. Sometimes, a Grim Monolith is worth more than Chalice because Wurmcoil Engine or Steel Hellkite can basically carry you to victory. Anyways, I hope some of you find this chart useful.
Here is my latest list. http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/320778#online
I played MUD on daily events since last Thursday and I ended with a positive record, I have seen a lot of young pyro and miracles with mentor so I decided to mix the "token removal" between ratchet bomb, contagion engine and orbs of warding. Again I think Ugin should be at least 3 in the main a lot games I would trade 1 for 1 and Ugin would resolve carrying me to victory.
Went to my usual FNM Legacy with the same 60, changing the SB a little:
-1 Ratchet Bomb, -1 Trading Post
+1 Tsabo's Web, +1 Coercive Portal
I went 4-0 again, only losing once to RUW Stoneblade. (8-1)
Round 1: I win the die roll (finally!!!) and keep my seven.
Game 1: I play Cloudpost, he Probes without a land (I put him on Storm), and sees a Chalice and Trinisphere. He tries to go off with Ad Nausem drawing him 9 cards, not finding an opening mana source (LED/Petal) draws another card and gets burnt. (1-0)
-1 Ugin, -1 Staff of Nin, -1 Spine of Ish Sah
+1 Thorn of Amethyst, +1 Trinisphere, +1 Orbs of Warding
Game 2: He plays fetch and passes. 1st turn Thorn, 3rd turn Trinisphere makes him scoop.
He told me he was packing two Hurkly's Recall, but didn't get one.
1-0 (2-0)
Round 2: Shardless BUG, losing the die roll. I was glad he beat Sneak and Show that I didn't want to play.
Game 1: 2nd Trinisphere sticks and he was casting one spell per turn, while I cast my fatties. (3-0)
-4 Chalice, -1 Lightning Greaves, -1 Kuldotha Forgemaster
+1 Coercive Portal, +1 Trinisphere, +1 Karn, +1 Ugin, +1 Wurmcoil Engine
Game 2: We both mull to six, I got Cloudpost, Glimmerpost, Vesuva plus three artifacts. If he had a Wasteland, I would be set to play normal speed or be screwed. I keep anyways not wanting to mull to five. He is stuck with one land, while I punish him with Trinisphere. He gets up to 3 lands, but I get a Sundering Titan under a Cavern.
2-0(4-0)
Round 3: RUW Stoneblade, winning the die roll.
Game 1: Every card I played met removals, even my last Wurmcoil that would have saved me. He gets there with Stoneforge, Batterskull, and a surprise Jitte for the win. (4-1)
-3 Trinisphere, -1 Kuldotha Forgemaster
+1 Coercive Portal, +1 Wurmcoil Enginge, +1 Ugin, +1 Sundering Titan
Game 2: I have Cloudpost first turn, he has Pithing Needle on Kuldotha Forgemaster. I play Glimmerpost and get a Metalworker in, he Meddling Mages for Lodestone Golem. My third turn, I reveal 5 artifacts, play a land and make 4 more mana. If he has a counterspell, I would be put back, but I go for it anyways. I play Spine of Ish Sah on his Pithing Needle, play Forgemaster, then Lightning Greaves, all resolving. Fetch for Blightsteel and win. (5-1)
Game 3: He gets a TNN with Batterskull mid-game and put me down to 3, while I was able to resolve a Lightning Greaves and Coercive Portal early. The extra draw really mattered as I topdeck Hellkite, resolve it, equip greaves and blow up TNN. Hellkite goes all the way FTW. Glimmerposts also mattered a lot as it kept me in the game, I would have lost without it.
3-0 (6-1)
Round 4: RUW Stoneblade, winning the die roll (Yes! 3 out of 4 tonight)
Game 1: He had Stoneforge turn two fetching for Batterskull. I had three Cloudposts turn one, two and three, playing Trinisphere and Metalworker, which both got FoWed. Turn four, I played my last land which was Glimmerpost. I had too much mana and fatties from there on to not win. (7-1)
-3 Trinisphere, -1 Kuldotha Forgemaster, -1 Lightning Greaves
+1 Coercive Portal, +1 Wurmcoil Enginge, +1 Ugin, +1 Sundering Titan, +1 Karn
I SB'ed Karn remembering Blood Moons from the match up (but forgetting it earlier).
Game 2: He Pierces a turn two Monolith, and gets Blood Moon out with TNN later. I punt some and he punts some making it favored more for me. I go down to single digits before stabilizing with Forgemaster, Greaves and some artifacts to pitch for Steel Hellkite. Steel Hellkite gets there again FTW.
4-0 (8-1)
No mulls to five tonight.
Steel Hellkite and Sundering Titan have proven themselves this week and last week, so my 60 is set. Though, now I am doubting Orbs of Warding's protection. Thorn of Amethyst seem more of a favorable card still.
I was browsing the Legacy SCG IQ decklists and Julian Brasci got 5th in his local IQ. He has ventured away from the Locus plan that I am away from as well and he has notably included two Jitte. Jitte's inclusion is super interesting to me, if he were to play Revokers main this list could be super aggro as he had also opted out of Ugin. Just wanted to post his list and make note of it.
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Batterskull
1 Blightsteel Colossus
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Steel Hellkite
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Myr Battlesphere
4 Lodestone Golem
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Staff Of Domination
1 Crucible Of Worlds
3 Trinisphere
2 Darksteel Citadel
1 Sundering Titan
2 Lightning Greaves
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Metalworker
4 Grim Monolith
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Mishra's Factory
Sideboard
2 Orbs of Warding
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Spine of Ish Sah
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Crucible Of Worlds
1 Trinisphere
1 Sundering Titan
1 Platinum Angel
2 Tormod's Crypt
Julian is a buddy of mine. He went with the Jitte because he expected more creature match ups. We originally had two Crucible in main for the Ghost Quarter but he opted to put one on the side in favor of Staff of Domination. He decided to opt out Ugin because we want this to be more of a Metalworker / Forgemaster deck. This way, we can have Sundering Titan and Myr Battlesphere without destroying our curve.
seems interesting to cut a forgemaster when you want to be more of a forgemaster deck. Have you considered doing a more aggro route?Quote:
Originally Posted by L10
It would be interesting, but he is playing the four. He is playing with 3 Wurmcoil Engine though. Personally, I rather do a 2/2 split with Steel Hellkite.
If you are interested in playing a more aggro variant of MUD, have you ever tried MUD Stompy? That's the deck that Fropper and Zirath use to play quite a bit back in 2011 to 2012, and is one of my favorite MUD variants. You can try something like this:
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Mishra's Factory
4 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Metalworker
4 Grim Monolith
4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Steel Hellkite
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Batterskull
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Crucible of Worlds
Basically, the idea is to jam down a threat ASAP and beat face, then deny your opponent of resources. You really only need one or two giant robot. None of the robots curve is higher than 6 because getting the 7th or 8th may mean a turn delay. You can make room for Ugin or Razormane Masticore too. I am planning to play less Batterskull for Razormane Masticore with the release of Titan's Presence.
Made 25th of 169 in the legacy IQ in Worcester today. Deck preformed pretty well. I'll try and get some type of tournament report up tomorrow. Pretty tired ATM
I'm feeling like Endless One (BFZ spoiled) should have a room in my SB as an artifact-hate proof beater with big possibilities.
@ZEROorDIE: thrilled to see your report.
Now we're talking or win more? You can trigger it even if the spell is countered.
https://bb0c19df026b164266e3-5681979...Z_EN_HRR-1.png
I might try this in singleton. Seems like it could be alright.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverflame
I would also try this as a singleton it doesn't seem like the worst.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverflame
It's not win more if the first dude gets countered/plowed etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverflame
I think it's worth looking at for sure. I wonder how many creatures you would need to run to make it worth it. Looking at my version of MUD, I only have 1 Sundering Titan and 1 Blightsteel Colossus main. I'd need more 7+ mana creatures IMO. Hey Myr Enforcer is a 7 mana dude that is usually cast for much much cheaper j/k.
Too bad it wasn't 6 mana and up. That would be nuts, triggering after every cast Wurmcoil Engine, Steel Hellkite etc.
you may be missing the colorless spell aspect of it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilkin
Actually, I missed the part where the creature you tutor for is any mana cost. :) Cool, it's better than I thought.Quote:
Originally Posted by InWaking
Still, you need (IMO) a decent number of creatures to cast in order to trigger the ability. I do cast Titan quite often which is nice. I've even cast Colossus, although the majority of the time he sees play via Forgemaster. Like I said, I currently have 2 creatures that trigger the land. I'm not sure that's enough to merit a slot with the build I have. For others I'm sure it's good as you may have more Titans, Myr Battlesphere etc.