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4 x ggtQuote:
Originally Posted by TableTopMagic
4 x stinky
3 x thug
2 x ichorid
4 x narcomeoba
3 x putrid imp
1 x griselbrand (2 until recently)
1 x flayer
3 x careful study
4 x looting
2 x breakthrough
3 x dread return
4 x cabal therapy
4 x bridge
3 x petal
3 x led
4 x city
4 x gemstone
4 x colosseum
If you really really really want to go combo heavy, cut the putrid imps for a breakthrough, led, and 2nd griselbrand
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I am surprised to see no Street Wraiths.Quote:
Originally Posted by drude1
Petals are the best way to build this to be combo
We're not reinventing the wheel here but it is the risky-non-traditional list.
What comes out for side ins?
Let's say we need 5-6 anti hate.
Take out LEDs petals?..
Can it stay consistent?
Will a belcher pkg for games 2-3 work if we cut mana?
I've heard it been tried before.
Maybe going with something like:
x4 chrome mox x1 petal x1 led x4 dark rit x4 cabal rit x4charbelcher.
The lands mess this up but not enough slots unless we maindeck simian spirit guide.
Geeze I'm going diff direction here but if game 2-3 hate is messing with our endgame, ..,
thinking outside the box ...
Jason Bulkowski had a painter sideboard:Quote:
Originally Posted by ottofromorbit
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone
3 Unmask
Ummm, which he got from me and credits me for (although that makes me sound like the troll king). I got to 9th twice on SCG opens with that board, which I liked a lot, but eventually gave up on because the only thing that was truly conducive to that game plan in the main was the L.E.D.. You also have to have a very land heavy version of the deck as well, which makes game one a little clunkier.Quote:
Originally Posted by JPoJohnson
I'm actually trying this board right now:
4 phyrexian dreadnought
3 stifle
3 vision charm
3 firestorm
2 nature's claim.
The cool thing about this board is that it mostly still fits into the dredge plan pretty well. Vision charm will blink the dreadnought, mill four cards from the top instantly, or blink out a hate piece (eg grafdigger's cage, etc) for a turn to let us go off. Stifle obviously aids the dreadnought combo and stops things like bog, crypt, DRT for a turn, etc. And worse case scenario dreadnought without another combo piece makes zombies for us and/or removes bridges in mirrors. In general I have felt less "all in" on the SB with this version. The problem I have with this plan is it's still dead to a swords or other spot removal, so it would be nice to transition into a creature less plan.
I don't think it works to try to transition into belcher with LED dredge because of all the lands, but I guess you could try to side a bunch out. Then your whole SB would have to be dedicated to it and you would probably have 30 dead cards (your dredgers for example). That's what I didn't like about the painter package.
One other thing I was considering was to go with more of a reanimator package with very heavy discard and reanimate spells. Maybe something like this?
4 reanimate
4 animate dead
4 unmask
1 Iona
2 firestorm
or something around show and tell
4 show and tell
3 Goryo's Vengeance
2 griselbrand (adding a second to the main)
3 emrakul (obviously not great synergy with dredge) or 3 x other fatties with reanimate instead of GV
3 unmask
Anyway, always looking for innovative ideas. I certainly know this is getting away from traditional dredge builds, so don't bother flaming about how dredge is supposed to grind people out. This is just another path the deck could go.
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painters grindstone ive seen. its good. i havent considered those other options.Quote:
Originally Posted by drude1
thanks for sharing.
I've been putting in the hours with LED Dredge and come to the conclusion that Putrid Imp should be cut for Street Wraith, I subbed Putrid Imp for Street Wraith in Quad-Lazer and was impressed with the results, being able to cyle on your first turn for Threshold off of a Lion's Eye Diamond for Cephalid Coliseum and being able to protect a Dredger from Deathrite Shaman on the draw is just insanely good. Deathrite Shaman is just too much of a threat to Dredge in order to be able to take a turn to play a Putrid Imp, Firestorm can't really deal with decks that play Deathrite Shaman and Rest in Peace and both cards expose the mana base to Wasteland.
I do obviously see where wraiths are good against DRT and can see your argument for that. The advantage of putrid imp though is that it allows you to slow roll your game plan against a lot of hate. I played a game online yesterday where I won against 2 tormods crypts because I was able to hold dredgers and throw them out one at a time. Putrid imp and wraith play very different roles in the deckQuote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
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What deck in the format SBs Tormod's Crypt any more? Even Relic of Progenitus is unusual post Rest in Peace. Sure Putrid Imp has its place vs that kind of hate, but I don't think it really exists in significant numbers.Quote:
Originally Posted by drude1
I think the primer for both variants should present a "trigger for dummies" section, where it explains even the basic ones and the more advanced ones:
-when your opponent's creature and your creature dies, you need to put in the stack first the "remove the bridge from your graveyard" trigger and then the token generation, so the late resolves first and you gain tokens before removing your bridges
-that you can activate coliseum in response to ichorid's ability going to stack, so you can remove black creatures for ichorid that you didn't even had before that
-that you can sac led in response to draw spells (and that you should remember to choose to generate RRR, unless you have an untapped coliseum)
-that you can respond your own phantasmagorian trigger going to stack so you can discard 6 cards at once instead of only 3
an so on...
First off, you'll have to explain to me how street wraith is better than putrid imp against rest in peace. I don't think we are talking about rest in peace here. And to assume that every deck plays rest in peace is to assume that every deck plays white mana. I'm thinking more about all of the other decks. You have to have a separate plan against RIP, thus transitional sideboards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
Again, I get how wraith is good against a DRT activation, but my point is that imp is good against a lot of other hate, including tormods crypt, relic, Bojuka bog, etc. it also drops for one and sacs to therapy and dread return. Basically, wraith is good against spot removal such as DRT and maybe surgical (if they are targeting a dredger), and imp is good against mass graveyard removal. Pick your poison.
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Another aspect is the reduction of discard outlets when you replace Putrid Imps with Street Wraiths.
With Street Wraiths there are more hands that lose to a single FoW (e.g. compare T1 Imp -->FoW, T2 Looting/Study to T1 Looting/Study-->FoW, Cycle into nothing).
Didn't realize that Daniel Rude (although now that I see your username it clicks) was on these forums. I simply credited Jason Bulkowski because people know his name from his top 8s. I did know that you were credited.Quote:
Originally Posted by drude1
I guess what he means is RiP and DRS replace old hatecards like Tormod's Crypt in most decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by drude1
Decks with BG in it use DRS.
Decks with white in it use RiP.
Decks without any of the aforementioned use 1-2 cages.
You will have exeptions to this...true. But most of the time it is really that easy.
Putrid Imp was very strong agains crypt, relic and bog, but these cards went back in numbers.
I only see a few relics out of Merfolks sideboard, but Merfolk shouldn't be a problem anyways and the day I have a bad matchup against merfolk is the day I will quit playing magic ;)
Greetings Mindlash
So again, you are saying play wraiths for DRS. I don't argue that. If you see tons of DRS in your meta definitely play wraiths. Where I play I tend to see a descent amount of Ipainter (crypts), lands (bog), and an array of delver decks (usually cages and/or surgical). Again, I'm not saying playing the wraith is wrong, but putrid imp is still very playable as well, especially again because it's a one drop that is a recurring discard outlet and sac-able creature for zombies. My biggest problem with street wraith is that, without imp as a discard outlet, you are relying more on LED or breakthrough as your discard outlet, and then wraith is no longer in your hand anyway. You basically have to have dredger + looting + wraith for wraith to be any good. And if you are talking about manaless dredge, then you are on the wrong forum.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mindlash
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I still play Pimps. I just tried to clarify what FF said. I find Street Wraith interesting though. Last tournament I played against Painter and 3 Bug Delver decks. Most played decks here are BUG followed long time by nothing. Second is Miracles followed by another whole lot of nothing. Afterwards comes the rest ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by drude1
Sadly I am not able to find room for SW :-/ This deck has not many flex spots i guess. I didn't like Levins Careful Study cut for SW either.
Isn't the Led / Breakthrough hand totally playable with SW? At least combined? Play Led - BT - response Sw - respone crack Led? But yeah sure otherwise you are totally dependant on Careful Study and Faithless Looting.
Greetings Mindlash
PS: And yes FF talks about LED dredge and not Manaless Dredge since he mentions Led and Coliseum in his described plays. I wouldn't have mentioned Putrid Imp neither if I was talking about manaless.
Kinda, as you are getting one more draw out of it in this case, but you certainly can't use it in response to a DRS activation. You would be better off slow rolling until you can LED and colosseum in response to DRS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mindlash
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I tested out cutting PImps Monday at my LGS for SW since I figured there'd be alot of DRS running around ala BUG, Jund, Elves, and other stuff.
Of course, I ended up getting matched up against Mono-B Pox, G/W Enchantress, and Dark Maverick, going 0-3 (scooped game 2 in round 3 since I had to be somewhere).
I'll be adding PImps back in I think and trying to deal with DRS using Firestorm/Chain of Vapor SB and a 1-1 split of Darkblast MB/SB, as it felt like my hands were slower without the additional discard outlet, esp since I'm usually cutting LED/Breakthroughs for anti-hate games 2 and 3.
I'm just fine with cutting Breakthroughs for StreetWraith. Breakthrough seems to be a holy cow, but you already have 12 Draw-Effects (Looting, Study, Coliseum). Early versions played Coliseum, Breakthrough and 2 Deep Anal, sometimes with additional Studies. In my testings, Wraith was really bonkers, but not in the Imp-Slots, so Breakthrough seems to be the next-worse card to cut. Imp is a very good turn-1 play, fodder for DR/Ichorid/Therapy and helps beating GY-Holocaust-Effects like Spellbomb,Crypt or Relic.Quote:
Originally Posted by nylarotep
Was to lazy to post earlier, but yeah this is pretty much the idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkJester