I think just replacing sphinx of the steel wind with grisselbrand and adding the anti-sac angel to the board and calling it a day is the way to go.
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I think just replacing sphinx of the steel wind with grisselbrand and adding the anti-sac angel to the board and calling it a day is the way to go.
This. Finally someone else putting thoughts into it and not going crazy about a big demon.Quote:
Originally Posted by zmattk
Sphinx is way better in red matchups like Burn, Goblins and Canadian Threshold (besides Iona on red, but she doesn't stop already lying threats).Quote:
Originally Posted by DrHealex
Sigarda is only good if you face lots of Pox and BUG, so it's heavily depended on your meta.
Well, it is a sideboard. i have seen lilianas/innocent blood/diabolic edict in more decks than just those 2.Quote:
Originally Posted by H3llsp4wn
I think the margin between sphinx and grissel in those matchups is much slimer than you think.
I call bull shit, seriously if you guys haven't put Griselbrand thru' the gauntlet in order to see how he performs first hand, then you're just basing your opinions off guess work and bad guess work at that. Jin, Gitaxis isn't good vs Maverick and a lot of other "aggro" decks out there, if you know how to play Griselbrand correctly you almost always bring the game home in comparison.Quote:
Originally Posted by H3llsp4wn
Stop concentrating on Reanimate and drawing 7 immediately, if you constantly misplay ofcourse Griselbrand is going to suck. Jin Gitaxis is only good when you can guarnatee you can resolve him, protect him and then resolve another threat after him, Griselbrand needs far less guarantees to secure an advantage.
Unfortunately we don't play other creatures. Too bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
:rolleyes:
I agree with Fortune. Played the demon and its nuts...
Are there really a lot of games where you loose after drawing 7 with Jin? Do you feel like you need to reduce the opponent to 0 Hand cards to win?
STP/Redblast are the most common hate cards that the opponent can use in our turn too totally blow us out. Basically a 2 (or 3) for 1 that you cant really recover right? Now they only have swords and you go Response draw 7 (and maybe 7 more) and then either force og or gain your 7 life back.
Lifeloss does matter, but you do not have to use it immediately right! What can RUG do once the demon is out? Attack into it? block it? Remeber its a 7/7 Flying Lifelink. They have no attacks/no blocks.
What can the do when Jin is out? Redblast it or still attack with their army to try win before we reanimate more monsters in our next turn.
Using reanimate without having enough life to draw with the demon immediately is only an issue if
1) the opponent can burn you out before you can get the lifelink trigger
2) the opponent has STP and you cannot draw 7 in response.
I do not see where Jin gitaxias makes a big difference in those situations.
You seriously try to use the RUG matchup as an argument for Griselbrand?
Have you ever heard of Sphinx, Iona and Platinum Emperion? :eyebrow:
I am only mentioning it versus RUG because you said that you are afraid to use the ability because of stifle. Now that was why I explained you that your argument is not valid, since you do not have to draw 7 unless its safe since they do not have removal/attacks or blocks versus a 7/7 flying lifelink.Quote:
Originally Posted by H3llsp4wn
Of course I am not saying that the monsters you mentioned wouldnt be better. As I understand it in many matchups specific monsters are the best, but they can only be a 1of in the deck for entomb. Jin vs. Griselbrand fights for the 3-4 of that can be regularly discarded even without entomb for the "best" monster.
Do you resolve Entomb every game? If you're playing 3xJin, Gitaxis and 4xCareful Study + other direct hand to graveyard outlets he's going to be the most common creature you have on the board. Having 7 cards in hand vs. an STP or a 7/7 Flying, Lifelink on the board vs. an opponent who has already played out his hand matters when you can't faceroll a match up.Quote:
Originally Posted by H3llsp4wn
Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
Oh and you have done the appropiate amount of testing in what the last 2 days to make the claim he is 100% without a doubt better? I think not, none of has, and none of us will know until we see what happens to the meta to make appropriate changes. Right now we are all talking theory, and I was just simply stating that by the looks of it he will not be a Jin replacement, because his draw backs fall exactly where I pointed out. Sure he will be great when you don't have to reanimate him or use thoughtseize or fetches and never get atttacked, but there are the situations where just getting to draw 7 with Jin and make your opponent answer him or lose is still going to be phenomenal.
To be honest, I think Gisela is something we should be considering for aggro matchups. A 2 turn clock is amazing and can stop swarms from decks like Maverick, Goblins, Burn from killing us. It does suck she's weak to Maze of Ith and Karakas though.
Not valid? Stifle is played in other decks as well (e.g. Stiflenought and Team America) and if I cannot use his ability he is nowhere near the level of Jin-Gitaxias.Quote:
Originally Posted by catmint
Of course, you don't have three "game winners" beside Jin in every matchup, but there is a fair amount of games where you do.
Played out his hand? You know you should be playing a fast combo deck, right? Try making use of Griselbrand against Maverick with a full board.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
The Mind Twist ist huge (especially against Control and Combo). If you resolve a reanimate on Jin T2 (happens a lot) and he lives for one turn your chance to win is absurdly high, because it takes away land drops and outs and gives you a full hand plus free discard to get other creatures online (imagine playing against Spiral Tide, if he cannot bounce Jin before the first discard phase, he has already lost - if he cannot bounce Griselbrand he still has two turns to do so or just go into combo mode). Also: pitching Jin is something I often find myself doing.
I could imagine testing one Griselbrand, but I would never substitute Jin for him. However, I'd play him as a 1-of in Mono-B Reanimator.
We already have really good creatures against Goblins and Burn (Iona, Sphinx, Empyrial Archangel, Platinum Emperion, Blazing Archon).Quote:
Originally Posted by zmattk
I'd love to see a protected creature for the Maverick MU though. To be valuable despite the lack of protection requires a really strong ability to find it's way into Reanimator (see Jin). Being a two turn clock is amazing, but I am not sure if Gisela is fast enough for Maverick...I don't think so (Swords, Maze, Karakas, Mindcensors). I will have to test it first.
Yes, I can run thru' 30 something games in an early afternoon to be pretty damn sure Griselbrand is the nut high, it gets obvious real quick.Quote:
Originally Posted by zmattk
Yeah, 30 games is not even close to enough. First off let's assume you tested against a variety of decks: RUG, UW Stoneblade, Esper Stoneblade, Maverick, some storm variant, and Zoo. So we're covering pretty much all the archtypes: control, combo, aggro, and midrange aggro control.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
That's 5 games against each deck. Slightly over one match against each and you aren't even accounting for other popular decks like Burn, Affinity, Pox, BUG control/Team America, ect. And there's always the fact that you aren't even testing against decks that emerge from what Avacyn Restored brings to the format...
So in your 30 games how many times did you chose Gristelbrand as your reanimation target? I'm sure it wasn't 30 or else you should just play 4 Gristelbrand because he's just that good. Also how many times did you go for Gristelbrand and Jin would have also won you the game? Probably a decent amount of those times. So how many games can we assume you reanimated Gristelback against a relevant deck where he single handedly won you the game where nothing else would have sufficed? Probably 1 or 2 times. And let's not even get started about playing agaisnt GY hate...
With 5 games against each deck, you have not put yourself in enough situations to decide whether one card over a card that is functionally similar is better in the long run. Sure you can turn 2 Gristelbrand and win because he is a good card and if your opponent can't answer him then you are most likely going to win. But you haven't played enough with him against enough decks to make the claim he will be better than Jin in all circumstances and is the definite replacement for Jin.
There's a reason people like LSV and Kibler test their deck for WEEKS before taking it to an event like a PT or GP, it's because they need to know how each card will react in every situation against every deck. Sure this is Legacy and there are a lot more decks to account for to the point where it's nearly impossible to do so, but you're going to need more than 30 games to make any statistical relevance. You'll probably want about 30 matches...against at least 15 decks...
You said it's obvious that Gristelbrand is busted...well it's obvious that Jin Gitaxias is also busted.
Sure, there is not enough testing and data to be 100% sure. That's what is the fun right now... just speculating. Some will be wrong some will be right and who knows .. maybe the field will keep beeing divided in Jin vs. Griselbrand.
Imo Griselbrand will win by a fair margin for the reasons I already posted earlier. Mostly: always get value despite of removal.
How exactly does any of these decks beat a 7/7 flying lifelink? Don't worry... you'll get to use the ability!Quote:
Originally Posted by H3llsp4wn
It's not going to take you two weeks and being a 40 year old virgin to understand the differences between playing with Jin and playing with Griselbrand. I don't need to play dozens of games vs Tier 2 decks that Reanimator crushes by virture of being Reanimator in the first place, lol Pox, to test how well Griselbrand holds up vs. a gauntlet of representative decks for their respective archetypes post-board.
I just subbed Jin Gitaxis for Griselbrand, it was significantly better vs Zoo and RUG, marginally worse vs TES and High Tide, marginally better vs Stoneblade and Maverick and that's about all the matches I care about. I was also able to resolve Griselbrand and win faster than with Jin Gitaxis on numerous occassions because I could play him thru' STP, Path (and REB) without scooping.
Lol Pox? Do you know what Pox does? Any deck with edicts is not an easy deck for us to beat. And the reason we need a good diversity of creatures is because tier 2 decks exist and it would suck losing to something you could have beat easily.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
Against Zoo and RUG Sphinx is just as good as Gristelbrand it's because the body and lifelink is what matters here.
Against TES and High Tide Jin is exceptionally better because it forces them to combo off that turn. If not Jin, Iona does the job just as well.
Against Maverick you should probably go for Iona on white and Stoneblade should be any shroud creature.
Yes you don't always have the luxury of picking what creature you discard so in situations like this you have to look at what answers your opponent has and how we normally would deal with them.
Right now our biggest enemies are the tier 1 decks. Reanimator hasn't had much success recently because of the disruption we face, not the creatures we have. Going up against discard, counter spells, and gy removal extremely tough. If you really look carefully at what we are fighting against, you'll see that Gristelbrand doesn't add anything that we need to the deck because he doesn't correct the problems we face.
Karakas: Jin and Gristelbrand are both weak to this card. Gristelbrand might be slightly better here but if your opponent has it out already then I do not see why you're wasting resources and life to run it into death.
Maze of Ith: Both are weak to this too. Gristelbrand is worse here because you don't get to draw every turn because you don't get to connect every turn. Jin keeps fueling your hand to come up with a next play. Gristelbrand sits there and waits for you to die.
Swords to Plowshares: Both are weak to this card. Jin is better if he lasts until the end of your turn, Gristelbrand is better if they have an immediate answer. This is about a 50/50 here.
I agree that most people do not have the time to rigorously test to know whether this slot is worth it. Especially because the card was spoiled days ago. All of us have lives to live outside of Magic. But I asked you if you have properly tested it and knew without a doubt it was better and you said yes. My next point pointed out that your 30 games was not sufficient data to support your claim. Gristelbrand is going to be better some games than Jin, I cannot deny that, but I can say that I'm not so easily convinced he deserves to replace Jin all together. I think he needs more testing because both have their merits. The simple fact that Jin essentially ends the game if your opponent cannot answer him in 1 turn is a huge boost where Gristelbrand cannot always do this.
One thing is for sure. Neither of them are what we need to become a tier 1 deck again. We can change our deck to better fight against discard, counter spells, and gy hate, but the fact Maverick exists as a deck is really daunting right now. They have 4 Swords to Plowshares, 3 Scavenging Ooze, Karakas, Maze of Ith, Knight of the Reliquary to find their lands, and Green Sun's Zenith to find their Knight or Ooze plus they have mana acceleration. All in game 1.
And @catmint, you just proved my point. This is all theory we are talking here. Even if Gristelbrand proves through testing he is better against this meta than Jin, it will almost be pointless because other decks will be getting new cards from Avacyn Restored as well. We need to take into account the optimized lists of all the decks including the ones that have yet to emerge, and that won't happen for months. I mean, I hear people have been talking about Temporal Mastery lately...
How does BUG kill a creature? Hmmmmmm... :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by catmint
Stiflenought also has ways to kill it (Liliana, Drew Levin even played Dismember and Bolts) or render it useless (Jace).
Mind Twist just wins the game, while High Tide doesn't care about your 3 turn clock (4, because you cannot cast him in the first turn in UB). That's more than "marginally".Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
We are comparing Griselbrand with Jin as the 3-4 of not against the silver bullet for entombt which is the best against a specific matchup.Quote:
Originally Posted by zmattk
Does it make such a difference if they have to combo that turn or you draw 7-14 cards to counter whatever they do?Quote:
Originally Posted by zmattk
Agree.. no new creature can do that...Quote:
Originally Posted by zmattk
don't agree: Swords (and Redblast) as 1 mana removal to trade against your 3(2) cards is a big problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by zmattk
With Griselband you get to draw 7 cards for a free discard to reanimate a monster karakas does not hurt next turn. With Jin you get nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by zmattk
True. Jin is better Howver Griselbrand is not doing nothing: Decks running maze usually need to attack: You can still block with Griselbrand against most of the creatures. Also you still should be able to draw at least 7....Quote:
Originally Posted by zmattk
What happens after drawing 7 and discarding is not that elevant. What is much more relvant is that if you can't counter the swords they get a 3 for 1 (discard/reanimation/creature vs. swords) and with Griselbrand you can draw 7-14 to counter the swords in response and if not you get at least a 4:1 (discard/reanimation/creature + 7 cards versus swords)Quote:
Originally Posted by zmattk
I think grislebrand is a definite inclusion in our creature package. Often I find myself in a situation where I want the draw 7 from jin and the lifelink from sphinx, now we have that in one creature. Sure the discard is nice but most often the opponent discards 2-3 unimportant cards and sphinx's protection is great but that's why we run so many counters to defend our critters. I plan on either replacing AoD or a Jin or even both and try out 2 grislebrand. I'm not saying the demon is better than sphinx or Jin, just that he may be a stronger option in some situations than the current lineup.
@catmint
My saying Sphinx was just as good against RUG and Zoo was to state we already have an answer to those decks. Because even having Gristelbrand as a 2 or 3 of doesn't guarantee you will be using him against any deck. And the discard does matter quite a bit. In the storm matchups you say you can just draw 7-14 against them and counter what they do. Well since they have no removal we get the draw 7 almost no matter what from Jin. Then they have one turn to win no matter what circumstances they are in. With Gristelbrand, you still give them a window to win. Even if it's slim, there is a time where you will draw 14 cards and still lose. Not to mention with 4 Reanimates we are going to be using that slightly more than 36% of the time so the draw 14 will happen even less.
Regarding your comment about Swords and REB: Gristelbrand actually doesn't fix the problems we have GY hate, Maze of Ith, and Karakas mainly because there is a 50/50 chance they will have StP in hand when we animate a creature. If Swords and Blast are our only problems then play more shroud, but that isn't the case. And hardly any deck plays REB or Pyroblast in the main so in games 2 and 3 I hardly consider the Jin vs Gristelbrand argument it's going to take much longer to get a creature in play. And more often than not, I'll want my silver bullet.
@rxavage
You also need to realize with Gristelbrand you aren't really getting both at the same time. You get either Lifelink or Draw 7 a turn. This is also assuming you are connecting with him each turn.
I'm not saying I'm not going to test Gristelbrand. I think he deserves a chance, and he could even fit in one of the Jin slots, but I don't think he can completely take over Jin's spot in the deck. You also have to realize one of your arguments for Jin is that he's blue and dies to REB, but he's also blue and pitches to Force of Will. Completely replacing him drops your blue cards to 17 which I'm personally not comfortable with in this deck.
Regarind Karakas: Your opponent drops Karakas. I will NEVER go to bin Gristelbrand just to pay 7 life and have him bounced so I can discard maybe 2 or 3 cards. One probably being Gristelbrand to attempt to do it again. I will take my time and get a creature that won't be bounced because the decks that have Karakas won't really give us many opportunities to get creatures out.
Regarding Maze of Ith: Decks still have to attack, but they also run Mother of Runes.