[Deck] The EPIC Elf Survival

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Originally Posted by EaD

That said, I don't know if it's possible to squeeze in additional lords if you're already running NO.
So do we go for a split up between the lords?
Is 3 NO md enough or is the full ps more viable?
Would you mind sharing a list, Di?
Mostly I like your approaches but I'm running a Windux like list at the moment.

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I'll admit I'm having slight difficulty grasping this deck with the addition of the new lord; it throws things off so much from the convenional wisdom we've had with this deck.

For starters, 3 Natural Order is fine. Although it's the nuts and a nigh auto-win, I've often been dissatisfied with the full set myself because they are expensive and clunky. One of the deck's weaknesses lies within itself of being mana light without a lot of acceleration, and that's where Order is terrible. Drawing into multiples can be a burden if you're stuck on mana the entire game, which is unfortunately becoming more common given the rise of aggressive disruption in the form of red/zoo and such. In those instances it's very difficult to hit Natural Order, so it isn't a terrible choice to not run all of them. I still personally feel its best to run all of them, but again it isn't a bad choice if you have another decent card for the slot.

As far as a split up, yes, but I'll get to that in a second. The list BirdMan posted was derived right before he made that post, with a theoretical 12-lord build. On paper I liked it, but after testing I found it to be rather unsatisfactory, and that was pretty much confirmed after I played in a small local tournament yesterday. Aside from Imperious Perfect, the other lords are only strong with an army surrounding them. Should that not happen, then they're incredibly weak. I still feel the deck needs creatures that can be individually strong in order to have success, whether that be Tarmogoyf or Wren's Run Vanquisher. There are far too many decks out there that can just kill a lord and then your team goes from decent to terrible. Now regarding the split, I think it's fine, but I wouldn't personally go over 9-10 lords. If anything is cut, it's Champions. I've seen their value in the deck decrease tremendously over the last few months because of their lack of a decent ability. Decks are getting more aggressive and forestwalk with 1-2 other elves isn't enough to cut it sometimes. Post-M10, I imagine I'd have a lord setup somewhere along the lines of 4 Imperious Perfect, 3 Elvish Archdruid, and 2 Elvish Champion, leaving those other slots where lords could be to running either Tarmogoyf or Wren's Run Vanquisher.

However, that isn't concrete. I don't have a solidified list post-M10 because I don't have enough testing in. What's important is to not let these additional lords sway deckbuilding to the point of making bad matchups worse. Cutting important spells in bad matchups for these lords can be a mistake imo, which I believe some people may lose sight of by the potential prospect of running a full 12.

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Originally Posted by Amon Amarth

If your bad matches are Combo, which sees little play, and Ichorid which sees even less play... I think you're in a good position.

I'm loving this deck so far. Few people expect something like Natural Order > Progenitus. Screw you EPlague!

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There are still other bad matchups though. Landstill, Aggro Loam, and Zoo to name a few, and collectively they see a decent amount of play.

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Originally Posted by troopatroop

Landstill is actually a winnable matchup. Krosan Grip solves Humility, and Choke from the board is sick. Survival decks are notoriously 50/50 with Landstill. It depends on the make of Landstill and the skill of both players. If they built their deck to do well against the Countertop decks, they're probably neglecting their aggro matchup, and you might not even see a Wrath.

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This is false. The matchup is winnable, but still isn't good. Survival is only on the bank with Landstill when it's paired with disruption. We have none, and are prone to all their removal and sweepers. I've played against it a lot and I've only managed to win if I'm able to either stick an early Survival or Natural Order, or somehow recover from a Wrath of God faster than they find the second. The sideboard helps, but they also have a board, and paired with so much stuff maindeck it's hard for us push that last 5 or so life. Given how popular that deck is becoming, I think the sideboard may be a bit more geared to handling it, but it's still always going to be an uphill battle. Also, if a Landstill player designed their deck to beat Countertop they're probably doing something wrong; the curve of that deck is so high it shouldn't have to worry about that. Counterbalance will not counter Elspeth or Humility, so it's mostly irrelevant to their gameplan.

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Originally Posted by adrieng

The deck loses to tempo threshold and goyf sligh/zoo, that was the main reason players put goyf into the deck (which made the deck significatively less strong against the rest of the field).

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False. Tarmogoyf was added to the deck to act as an individual threat against control decks so you didn't overextend into sweepers like Pyroclasm and Engineered Plague. It's the ideal non-elf answer to handle removal. It also happened to improve virtually every single matchup. Saying the opposite is absolutely ridiculous, so I suggest you re-read the thread so you can correct your logic with a small history lesson. Or I could ask if you've ever actually played the deck in a high-level event, or even tested it, because your claims suggest otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Di

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Originally Posted by EaD
If your bad matches are Combo, which sees little play, and Ichorid which sees even less play... I think you're in a good position.

I'm loving this deck so far. Few people expect something like Natural Order > Progenitus. Screw you EPlague!

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There are still other bad matchups though. Landstill, Aggro Loam, and Zoo to name a few, and collectively they see a decent amount of play.

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Well, it wasn't me who said that, but nevertheless I agree with him on the love part.
Taking your suggestions I threw together that list, which I will test after gettin my hands on the new lord.

EEES

4 Windswepth Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Savannah
2 Taiga
5 Forest

4 Survival of the Fittest
3 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Anger

1 Deranged Hermit
1 Viridian Zealot
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Sylvan Messenger
2 Quirion Ranger
2 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Priest of Titania
4 Imperious Perfect
2 Elvish Champion
3 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Llanowar Elves

I am very curios about the Hermit. He looks just soooo good when played after an opposing sweep. Anyways, when he isn't convincing he might become the 4th Messenger again.
Also I'm not quite sure about the Squee, he often seems unnecessary but I also had situations where I plain needed him.
Also the list may be a bit too land lite with just 17 lands. Not quite sure yet.
For testings it seems to be quite a solid list.

I don't see why hermit would be good after a board clear. You run 17 land and expect to cast him without support from your creature-mana? However, whether or not he's good in general would be another question to ask...The instant creatures from him seem useful, but at a fairly high cost. Yet, hasted 10 damage seems good.

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Originally Posted by EaD

EEES

1 Deranged Hermit
1 Viridian Zealot
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Sylvan Messenger
2 Quirion Ranger
2 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Priest of Titania
4 Imperious Perfect
2 Elvish Champion
3 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Llanowar Elves

I am very curios about the Hermit. He looks just soooo good when played after an opposing sweep. Anyways, when he isn't convincing he might become the 4th Messenger again.
Also I'm not quite sure about the Squee, he often seems unnecessary but I also had situations where I plain needed him.
Also the list may be a bit too land lite with just 17 lands. Not quite sure yet.
For testings it seems to be quite a solid list.

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You're doing it wrong. It's either Tarmogoyf or Messenger, running both is bad form, and you will pay for it eventually. Also, Symbiote with no Mirror Entity? And forgetting the new card?! That list seems poor. Try -3 Messenger -2 Symbiote +3 Archdruid +2 Vanquisher.

Also, Play Squee for gods sake. Not being able to Survival for one would be dumb.

I found that messenger is one of the best cards in the deck, as it helps so damn much against landstill. I also run 3 vanquisher, because he is one of the only playable elves with a reasonable shot at just getting there on his own.

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Originally Posted by troopatroop

You're doing it wrong. It's either Tarmogoyf or Messenger, running both is bad form, and you will pay for it eventually. Also, Symbiote with no Mirror Entity? And forgetting the new card?! That list seems poor. Try -3 Messenger -2 Symbiote +3 Archdruid +2 Vanquisher.

Also, Play Squee for gods sake. Not being able to Survival for one would be dumb.

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Well, if you look closely my list just contains 57 cards.
So the 3 Slots are the new Archdruid guy. Just forgot to mention him.
Also, why wouldn't you run Messenger + Goyf?
I see the dissynergy but its not like messenger would just draw into goyfs.
Messenger is too good to cut.

Also I always loved the symbiote for his awesome synergy with titania. And now we get another one, I just want to try him. Also he protects your elfes from swords.

And I am playing Squee.
Just look closely at what people write, think about it patiently before considering everything and all poor.

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Originally Posted by Di

There are still other bad matchups though. Landstill, Aggro Loam, and Zoo to name a few, and collectively they see a decent amount of play.

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The difference is these decks allow you to interact with them where Combo and Ichorid just jerk off and kill you. The aforementioned decks will at least give me the opportunity to outplay them and/or fetch up a silver bullet with Survival. Tons of Landstill in your meta? Roll with 1 MD Magus of the Moon. Board in Grips, Caller, etc. Against Loam roll out a fast Progenitus. Loaming Shaman would be pretty tech too. I haven't tested against Zoo... form Voltron I guess.

What do you guys think of a 1-of Eternal Witness? Seems good to tutor up if your opponent Vindicate your Survival or Thoughtseizes/counters your Natural Order. Is it needed?

My original draft ran a single Eternal Witness but I hated it. It's slow, clunky, and not an elf, not to mention is terrible in combat. Even if there was the prospect of returning SotF, Natural Order, etc, you can generally get something better for that slot. If SotF is going to get blown up, I generally just tutor an Imperious Perfect or Wren's Run Packmaster and that gets the job done fine without time walking myself.

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Originally Posted by EaD

Well, if you look closely my list just contains 57 cards.
So the 3 Slots are the new Archdruid guy. Just forgot to mention him.
Also, why wouldn't you run Messenger + Goyf?
I see the dissynergy but its not like messenger would just draw into goyfs.
Messenger is too good to cut.

Also I always loved the symbiote for his awesome synergy with titania. And now we get another one, I just want to try him. Also he protects your elfes from swords.

And I am playing Squee.
Just look closely at what people write, think about it patiently before considering everything and all poor.

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I've played with messenger alot, and after Natural Order came into the deck his power decreased dramatically. Once you start adding Tarmogoyfs into the mix, it's just too many non elf cards. I don't like playing with that random chance element. Sometimes it will be great, but when you flip into garbage it's just awful, and it's gonna happen eventually you know? Symbiote is an insect too, and I like the card, but every time I flip one of those non elves, I'll kick myself, cuz it could have just been a Wren's Run Vanquisher, and everything would be peachy. It's just non synergy, and I'm not a fan of it.

Maybe Sylvan Messenger does make it's way back into the deck... But at that point I'd only want 3 Natural Order and very very few non elves. Why bank your game on a chance element when you can choose to just play Tarmogoyf...

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Originally Posted by troopatroop

I've played with messenger alot, and after Natural Order came into the deck his power decreased dramatically. Once you start adding Tarmogoyfs into the mix, it's just too many non elf cards. I don't like playing with that random chance element. Sometimes it will be great, but when you flip into garbage it's just awful, and it's gonna happen eventually you know? Symbiote is an insect too, and I like the card, but every time I flip one of those non elves, I'll kick myself, cuz it could have just been a Wren's Run Vanquisher, and everything would be peachy. It's just non synergy, and I'm not a fan of it.

Maybe Sylvan Messenger does make it's way back into the deck... But at that point I'd only want 3 Natural Order and very very few non elves. Why bank your game on a chance element when you can choose to just play Tarmogoyf...

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Thank you very much for this relaxed explanation. :smile:
So you could say I am too greedy if I want to squeeze Goyfs and NO and Messenger into the deck.
That said there's the remaining question of which variant is the way to go.
Since we're running tribal the synergy between Messenger + Vanquisher has a heads up against the raw power of goyf.
What is more viable/better/more intelligent?
It occurs that with more lords and vanquisher as a death touch threat to goyf and dreadnought seems way more better than just playing elves n goyf survival.dec, right?

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Maybe the positive CB-Top matchup? Maybe the sea of Tarmogoyfs? The deck just picked up Priest of Titania 5-8. You know what that means? The deck's gonna go broken ALOT more often. I'm not saying it's the best deck in the format, but it will demand respect. At least more respect than you're giving it.

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The CB Top is not as positive as it seems. Did you test against deck playing maindeck shackles+swords+others3cc (such as maelstrom pulse/vindicate) U/G/B/W?
After side they bring their 4 engineered plague and should beat us.
Actually, goblin has a better CB matchup.

Goyf sligh is playing 4 grim lavamancer which is the main issue I have. It is then quite easy for them to go burn+activated grim and swing with goyf.

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Tempo thresh is NOT a matchup I would hate going into. Elvish Champion makes all your guys unblockable, and with more lords than ever, you stand a great chance of running them out of answers

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Tempo threshold is playing Fire/Ice which kills all our creatures and make 2 for one. Lords are really weak against tempo threshold mostly because
most of the time you don't have your 3 mana to cast them and when you have them (so you paid 3 mana) they just need one mana to kill them (bolt)
that's a huge tempo boost.
After side they bring 1 or 2 pyroclasm and 4 submerge, and then I don't see how you can win.

As for the witness, I have tested them a bit in sb with choke and maindeck goyf. The main reason was to beat countertop and tempo threshold. I wasn't still happy with these matchups.
I suggest to people playing goyf maindeck to play a one off regal force. It adds a lot of power to the deck.

When the new lord is legal, I'm positive that the messenger route is the way to go. I've been testing with ten lords, and even with two swords and other removal flyin at your guys, its not hard to keep at least one lord on the table. Then, after they use a good amount of resources, just try to land a messenger, that usually ends the game for all intents and purposes. Of course it doesn't always work like that, but I then still have my 3 NOs to fall back on.

What would/did you take out for Sylvan Messenger?

I found that elvish spirit guide wasn't really pulling its weight. The speed boost can be huge, but I personally like consistency better.

@Adrieng: Dude, it is painfully obvious that you have not done any research on the deck. How in gods name do you think that 4 submerge is impossible to overcome? Also, suggesting regal force in this deck is beyond ridiculous, messenger is a much better draw engine, and it also avoids counterbalance, along with that whole not time walking yourself thing.

Actually I am suggesting of playing a one off regal force and just ONE, that's quite easy when you have survival to go anger=>priest=>priest=>priest/ranger=>ranger=> play some others dudes=> regal force =>draw at least 5/6 cards =>gg.
Furthermore, lot of time you have progenitus in hand and going NO=>regal force can be quite good.

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What would/did you take out for Sylvan Messenger?

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You have to make a choice between either playing goyf or messenger. Some people thinks goyf is better (improves bad matchups according to me), some others things sylvan messenger is better (adds power to my mind).
Personnaly, I prefer messenger which adds a lot of power/CA to the deck.

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How in gods name do you think that 4 submerge is impossible to overcome?

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I am not saying that 4 submerge is impossible to overcome but 4 submerge with 4 fire/ICE+4 bolt+1/2 pyroclasme+4 spell snare+etc
is impossible to overcome.
Elf-survival needs theirs mana elves to play the overcosted elves/spells.
When they are playing 0 mana to time walk your perfect/archidruid, 1 mana to time walk(bolt) you 2 mana to make a two for one (Fire/ice) and 2 mana to reset the board, I don't see any reason you are going to win.

If you have an active survival, and access to all that mana, and it is resolving, there is no way to lose that game in the first place.

Where some people play goyf, I prefer the 3 vanquishers. It's big enough to do some serious damage on its own, and it trades with or beats every creature.

Lastly, with 10 lords in my build, I have had very few problems with canadian thresh. after board especially. Sure they get their fun little submerges, whereas I bring in choke, which is all but game if you can resolve it. So, unless they get one of their god hands, canadian thresh is not that bad a match at all.

This is my elf deck that I play and I find it to be very decent:
Creature
4 Llanowar Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves
2 Quirion Ranger
4 Priest of Titania
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Imperious Perfect
3 Elvish Archdruid
1 Elvish Champion
3 Sylvan Messenger
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Wren's Run Packmaster
3 Wren's Run Vanquisher
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Anger
1 Progenitus

Enchantment
4 Survival of the Fittest

Sorcery
3 Natural Order

Land
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
4 Taiga
5 Forest

Sideboard:
4 Krosan Grip
Choke ?
Jitte
Free slots

I've been playing against a bunch of combo decks, TEPS, Show and Tell etc.
and also against Aggro Loam. These match ups are really hard imo.
I need some more testing against other decks though.

Any ideas on how to improve the list? I would greatly appriciate sideboard discussions. I've seen people playing white to improve the combo matchup, but is this necessary? It's a real underdog against most combo decks according to my testing.

Relic of progenitus is a great sideboard card, and it can be a great help against aggro loam.

White also helps a lot against the burn matchups since you can bring in Absolute Law to protect your guys.