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I pretty much don't care. There isn't much Ichorid in my meta and if there is, it almost never shows up at the top tables (where I'm obviously aiming to get). Lavamancer are a reasonable replacement for Fanatics in that MU and just plain superior in most others so I decide that this trade off is worth it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScatmanX
quote:
With Null Rod, Teeg and Canonists you can have a ton of speed bumps for them. I don't think it's unwinnable, T1 Nacatl/Ape, T2 hate piece, T3-4 2nd hate piece, and they're probably out of the game. Depending on their hand Null Rod can be a complete blow out, and Canonist always ties up a turn+ to eliminate; Teeg is the weakest hate piece against combo but it still shuts off Tendrils, Ad Nauseam (in addition to FoW, Humility, Elspeth, etc). Considering PTEs/STPs are completely dead in the match up anyway, it makes sense to have 3-4 SB options against Combo, even if its just something like Teeg that's generically helpful.
i agree with that statement.why just give it away when you can side in something and give yourself a chance.with maindeck null rod it gives you a chance game 1.
anyhoo i just took 1st place with RGW zoo at my local tourney.
i took this decklist:
land:
3 plateau
3 savannah
3 taiga
4 bloodstained mire
3 wooded foothills
1 windswept heath
1 forest
1 plains
1 mountain
creatures:
4 wild nactl
4 goyf
4 thoctar
3 grim lavamancer
3 kird ape
3 quasili pridemage
utility:
4 chain lightning
4 lightning bolt
4 lightning helix
4 STP
3 null rod
sideboard:
4 pyrostatic pillar
3 vexing shusher
3 relic of progenitus
3 krosan grip
2 pyroclasm
1st opponent: ANT. not again! ugh..2nd week in a row.
game 1:
nothing out of the ordinary.i drop creature,he drops land.i beat with a creature for a few turns,he drops land and combos off. on to game 2.
i side out STP and in come 4 pyrostatic pillar.i now have 7 cards to help me with this matchup but i see none both games.
game 2:
see game 1.ouch!!
0-1
2nd opponent: U-W weenie birds with library manipulation & other tricks.
game 1 :
i keep a hand with taiga, savannah,thoctar, wild cat & burn spells.
1st turn i drop wild cat ,she drops bird.
turn 2 i drop savannah ,burn her bird ,swing for 3.she drops land, a bird ,looks at the top 4 cards,arranges them and ends turn.
i draw then drop land ,swing with wildcat drop thoctar .she drops a bird.
a few turns later thoctar hits big,i burn some birds ,she chump blocks with some birds,thoctar and wildcat win it.
game 2:
i keep a hand with goyf and mancer and kird ape.
this game goes a lot like game 2.mancer kills some birds and goyf and ape go the distance.
1-1
opp.3 enchantress.
game 1:
i get out early creatures . he takes some damage but gets an elephant grass in play and keeps the upkeep going.that slows me down a LOT! he plays a lot of enchantments ,draws a lot of cards,makes a lot of empty throne tokens and kills me.
i side out 3 null rod and 1 STP and in come 4 pyro pillars.
game 2:
i drop an early creature,beat with it then drop a pillar.his deck does not like this card.he casts some cards but takes too much pillar damage along with creature and burn spells .a few turns later i win.
game 3:
he thinks for a while but keeps.i also keep a hand with 2 pillars.by turn 3 i have both pillars in play .that REALLY hurts and just like game 1 pillar ,creature,and burn damage FTW.
at this point i am 2-1 with 3 losses and i dont know if its good enuff.
top 4 pairings.IM IN !! woohoo!
so i get paired up with painters servant.
game 1:
he drops early chrome mox and grindstone.i drop ape and beat with it a few times.he gets magus of the moon out and shuts off all my dual lands.i hate when that happens!:mad:
a few turns later i burn the magus,drop thoctar.
he tutors for servant,casts it and then REB on my thoctar:frown:
so at this point if i do not get rid of servant,he will activate grindstone next turn.
i burn the servant cast another thoctar and creature beats win game 1.that was a close game!
game 2:
he gets an early servant out but never sees a grindstone.i drop goyf,wild cat,burn some of his blocking creatures and like game 1 creature beats win game 2.
i make top 2!
so im waiting for the other 2 players to finish.its ANT vs.vial wizards.needless to say i hope wizards win......
ANT wins 2-0.
i actually think about conceding but i go ahead and rematch with ANT
game 1:
i drop early wild cat and thoctar and beat with them until he is at 6 life.he tries to go off next turn but makes a mistake but still manages get 14 ETW tokens! double ouch!
we draw go for a couple of turns when i draw helix and cast it. he is down to 3 life.i draw my next card and its a chain lightning.i win game 1.
game 2:
turns 1 and 2 he drops land but he cant seem to go off.turn 2 i drop null rod.turn 3 i drop thoctar.
he says draw go for the next few turns, my creature sticks and beats for the win!
1st place!
he shows me his hand after the game and i see 2 lotus petal and a chrome mox! null rod did have a big effect on this matchup.
but i cant help but wonder if he does not fudge game 1 how different it would have been.
but all in all i am very happy with the win and happy how the deck performed.
i was encouraged to play it a second time because i did well last week with it going 2-1 but not making top 4 because of tiebreakers.
i am glad i did.
i think i could have sided differently or had other cards.
what do you all think?
comments are welcome.
and thanks.
Two days ago Rob Tuinte won a 40 man tournament with this list:
4 wild nacatl
4 tarmogoyf
4 kird ape
4 dark confidant
3 grim lavamancer
3 qasali pridemage
2 jotun grunt
4 tribal flames
4 chain lightning
4 vindicate
4 lightning bolt
3 bloodstained mire
3 windswept heath
2 wooded foothills
2 taiga
2 plateau
1 bayou
1 volcanic island
1 savannah
1 badlands
1 mountain
1 swamp
1 plains
1forest
SB
4 krosan rip
4 orim''s chant
4 tormod''s crypt
3 pyroclasm
The meta breakdown was:
Zoo 4
Dreadstill 4
Merfolk 3
R Goblins 3
UWb Landstill 3
4C Thresh 2
Agroloam 2
Eva Green 2
Wit Weenies 1
UW Landstill 1
Ichorid 3
UG Thresh
Canadian Thresh 1
Quinn 1
Dutch Staxx 1
Enchantress 1
UWG Thresh 1
ANT 1
Sui 1
GBW Goodstuff 1
Rock 1
Ghostway 1
Wild Zombie Madness 1
I was surrised at Zoo's power against the decks in the meta, with a big thanks to the Qasali Pridemage the deck got a lot more powerful. Nothing you guys don't already know, more a revelation for me. The Zoo decks peformed a lot better then Goblins on this tourney.
I beat Rob Tuinte with UG Thresh in the first round of the tournament 2-0, but went on to lose to the same Rob Tuinte in the semifinals 0-2. The deck plays neatly and can create a lot of pressure. Pridemage was a pain. Rob was a cool guy, he deserved to win the tournament. I faced three Zoo decks that day, beat two 2-0 too.
When the manabase rolls as you want it to, the deck is pretty powerful!
I'd suggest everyone try Pridemage, it wins the Goyf showdown and it destroys CB; just drop it before the opponent drops CB. It's pretty impressive :)
@joey223: I really like your list, minus two little changes changes. I wouldn't run 4 Thoctar, and i'd maximize the Pridemage, he's just too damned good not too. So i'd go, -1 Thoctar, +1 Pridemage.
Also you mana base is kinda weird. Did you opt to go with Bloodstained Mire over Windswept Heath because you didn't have any? They fetch your on color basics and are the land for the deck, and At least run a 4of Wooded Foothill:tongue:
And what do you think about Path to Exile over STP?? I just think it's better at RFG-ing critters.
thanks lox
i have been thinking about dropping 1 thoctar for 1 pridemage.but with 3 null rod in the main deck i think i am OK.there is 2 enchantments we fear. they would be counterbalance and blood moon.if they get out of hand in my meta i will for sure go to 4 pridemage.i love the thoctar .im never sad to see it.
i am using all the fetches i own.still trying get those last few elusive cards.
and the STP or PTE debate,i am on the side of STP.simply because i do not like to give my opponent mana to use against me if i can help it.whereas if he gains a little life i feel the critters and burn will take that life and then some right back. but i could be way off base with this for i have not tried PTE.but if i did run it i would feel the need to squeeze wasteland into the deck just to offset PTE.wasteland is almost never a dead card in this format anyway.
and to address the rob tuinte list ,it looks good but i cant see myself going to 4 colors.in fact i was actually looking to see if i could go to 2 colors with my list.still kicking it around.
@umbowta: I know you love you some mono G stompy! Me too. Have you ever tried out berserk in this deck. I have been trying it out up a Get Your Game On and have been doing well with it. It can allow you to goldfish turn 3 with no disruption which can help against some of the problematic game 1 combo match ups and race the cb/t set up. Let me know what you think!
Yes, I have a list I'm working on now. I'm tending to call it "Boston Garden" The garden part of it comes from the Zoo-ish creatures that tend to grow, and Boston because it's wicked fast. I've already had 3 second turn kills with it. PM me for sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by magicmoron
Have you guys seen this list? It came in 3rd at the NoVA DLD. What do you guys think? I like the list, but I'd make the following changes:
-1 Canopy +1 Taiga, -1 Fireblast +1 Grim Lavamancer. I'm also a fan of Swords but I'll test out Path to Exile.
Also the exclusion of helix is because price of progress usually deals 6-8 damage to their face. I would personally prefer testing helix over pop though.
Code:Beats: 22
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Wooly Thoctar
Other: 2
2 Sylvan Library
Burn/Creature Removal: 16
3 Path to Exile
3 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Price of Progress
3 Fireblast
Mana: 20
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
3 Taiga 2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
Sideboard: 15
1 Path to Exile
1 Price of Progress
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Vexing Shusher
2 Choke
3 Pyroclasm
4 Krosan Grip
sylvan library is sooooo good in this deck. being able to set your draws and gain some card advantage having the higher life total. also with the amount of fetches we play, can get rid of the garbage and help rip a win.
another thought, since goyf sligh is starting to run white, should it be considered zoo? the lists are starting to become more the same; hybrid if you will. rumming practically the same cards with a few card differences
I split top 4 in my weekly tourney at SuperGames. 29 people attended.
Here is my list, Zoo 2point0:
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Kird Ape
4x Wild Nactal
3x Watchwolf
4x Qasali Pridemage
2x Isamaru, Hound of Konda
2x Woolly Thoctar
3x Path to Exile
3x Chain Lightning
4x Lightning Helix
4x Lighting Bolt
2x Jitte
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Windswept Heath
1x Bloodstained Mire
3x Taiga
3x Plateau
3x Savannah
1x Mountain
1x Plains
1x Forest
So i essentially went -4STP, -2 Cursed Scroll, for 3 Chain Lightning and 3 PTE.
Round one i get paired up against Counterslivers.
Game one we go into a quick damage race, and i win. Nothing special just some STPs from him and some Chains from me. Game two he gets 3 Counterspells plus Daze for my relevant stuff and i lose. Game three i get Jitte up to 12 counters, yes 12, but he has Crystalline Sliver and has to chump alot.
Win 2-1
Round two i get paired against Eva Green/GB Rock.
Game one i land a bunch of 3/3s and kill his two threats with burn/PTE. Game two he gets Volrath's Stronghold plus Nxythalid so he basically forcing me to lose a creature a turn to kill him, but i overcome anyway. Note he Maelstrom Pulses and gets 2 Pridemages.
Win 2-0
Round three i get paired against Dragon Stompy.
Game one i lose on the second turn to Chalice at 1 and 2. I have 2 playable cards in my deck at that point. Game two he plays Chalice and Magus, i Bolt Magus and Ancient Grudge his Powder Keg and his Chalice, then drop a 5/6 Goyf. Game three it takes me a while and he can't get another red source as i pummel him with Jitte-ed dudes.
Win 2-1
Round four i draw in.
Top 8 i get paired against BW Confidant with maindeck Spectral Lynx.
Game one he plays crappy 2/2s and is forced to chump so he can stay alive, then i PTE his Tombstalker and it's over. Game two he gets more crappy 2/2s and i draw 3 Nacatl, 2 Pridemage, 2 Ape plus burn. IT'S OVER!
Win 2-0
Anywho, i won some money and got some foil Watchwolf-s and some Foreign Beta Lightning Bolts. My deck is being pimped.
I REALLY REALLY like this build a WHOLE lot better. PTE is just better and noone can convince me otherwise. If i was in a meta of Gobs and Folk i would care, a little. It won me so many games just straight up, and i'm serious, like 3 or 4 it's first night in testing.
Ok people, Watchwolf is GOOD i promise. I haven't seen anyone else run him like ever. He will always be straight up beef and never lose P/T from a Wasteland. I don't see how he isn't run more. Sure, make the Goyf argument, but he fits the deck perfectly. Also, Jitte and Ancient Grudge are fucking hosses.
Nice finish! What was your sideboard like? Looks like you played a lot of aggro so the Jittes were good, but if you think you're going to encounter more control/combo, I'd try out Null Rod in its place. It's insane versus CounterTop (Top, Explosives, Shackles), Stompy (equipment, Chrome Mox), useful versus Tribal (Vial), and can really put the hurt on combo together with Teeg. You should try 3 Null Rod and 2 Teeg in place of Watchwolf and Jitte and see how that goes. I really think it'll be stronger than the vanilla 3/3s you have which I agree are still good, but easy to play around.
@keys: My sideboard was as follows,
4 Pithing Needle
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Vexing Shusher
2 Gaddock Teeg
Yeah i know about the NullRod tech, me and Whienot have been trying it for a while, i just don't think it's necessary for my build, and plus he runs Goyf Sligh and doesn't use the Pridemage. And i love Watchwolf, and my list all together. It's running a whole lot smoother and i really can't see making any changes until my meta changes.
I would, however like to tweak my sideboard. I think i'm gonna sacrifice the combo matchup all together and remove Teeg from the board. Doesn't seem too good as a 2of. Pithing Needle is too useful, and i love Ancient Grudge because sometimes Pridemage isn't enough. It won me the game singlehandedly against DragonStompy.
@ Loxodon and the other Zoo vets.
What do you think about Price of Progress? It is an instant bomb against most decks, netting 6-8 damage. I can see it as replacing the Chain Lightning's in Loxodon's list. 4 Bolts/Helix's seem like plenty in terms of spot removal and Helix/Jitte can offset the life loss. Has anyone tested this?
I really don't like PoP in this deck. I don't see the point in big finishers like Fireblast and PoP when your creatures are so efficient anyway. Plus, i tend to hit at least 5 lands on average unless my deck curves like a champ, and i don't like taking 10.Quote:
Originally Posted by Guevera59
Like i think it's a REALLY good card, just not in a 3 color deck. I don't think i'd even test it with RGW at all. It's too much of a gamble. It belongs in Goyf Sligh.
Good job man, bad luck continues to fucking plague me every week and it blows ass.
Please don't start another discussion on PoP, NUMEROUS FUCKING TIMES HAS THIS SHIT BEEN DISCUSSED! You think PoP is good ... play it. Please read through the thread before asking questions.
@ Loxodon
I rarely hit so many lands, and I essentially play the same list as yourself. I feel as if Zoo will always be on top in terms of a damage race, so, the Price will just about always deal lethal to the opponent, or at least put him in range of Goyfs/Thoctars. Who cares if you're at 2-5 life when you've won the game? I don't necessarily think that the deck needs a finisher, as it is already insanely aggressive, but I do feel that it is a more efficient burn spell than Chain Lightning. I don't think the damage dealt to yourself is a legitimate argument as addressed by a) you will almost always be on top in terms of life and b) you have Helix and Jitte to gain it back. Price can punch through those last 4-6 points of damage that no other burn spell, besides Fireblast, can do.
I do agree that Fireblast does not have a place in the deck as it is balls to the wall and a single counterspell ruins the day. Another point is that Price is a must counter. If they don't have the counter back-up, they lose the game, if they do, it clears the way for permanent threats such as Thoctar.
@ Pulpfiction
I am trying to further the discussion of the deck. What else should we discuss? I feel as if the list is pretty solid except for the last 3-4 slots. I think we have the creature base down and now we need to find the best Burn-suite/removal package. I have read this entire thread and I feel as if Price deserves more than what it has gotten. It is too powerful of a card to not even consider testing.
I agree with Pulp that this is getting rather tiring, but thanks to cards like Wild Nacatl the line is very blurry between Zoo and Goyf Sligh, so you can't really blame people. I think R/G/W Zoo needs to be better defined such as the tunnel vision in the burn thread towards sligh decks: otherwise progress will never be made. Guevera, if you really want to fill the last couple spots, play something that helps the bad matchups (null rod, teeg, etc). I'm no expert on Zoo but it seems pretty obvious that PoP is terribly conditional when the deck runs 3 basic lands. Coming from the goblins thread, my combo philosophy is pretty simple: if you wanna t8/t4, ditch the combo hate. If you wanna win, you'll probably need it.
In a metagame consisting of decks like merfolk/goblins/eva green PoP is gonna suck. I personally like helix over it just because it helps recoup life loss taken from cards like sylvan library, but as mentioned if you like it play it, if not play another card (same for grim lavamancers).
I personally think that Chain Lightning is better because it can remove critters. I don't see the necessity of PoP, and it's even dead in some matchups. I understand your argument, but i just don't see the need for PoP when we have Bolt, Helix, and Chain. They do the job just fine in my book.Quote:
Originally Posted by Guevera59