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I ended up axing Ponder from my list pretty early on in testing. It just doesn't do enough for me to warrant inclusion. Plus, if you're running Vial, you don't want to crowd your 1cc slot too much. I'm already at 15 1cc cards between STP, NH, Vial, and Brainstorm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jak.
Vial really rox as a T1 or T2 play but topdecking it really is a pain in the ass imo.
Vial is just about the strongest turn one play the deck can make. It negates Counterbalance, seriously helps against Wastelands and Stifles, and speeds the deck up more than any other card. While there are going to be times it's a poor draw (you have Survival with no creatures, you are digging for STP, w/e), it's still an alright topdeck due to the low CC of the deck. Within two turns of being played, it enables free, uncounterable Goyfs/Sprites/Drakes, and generally gets better from there. In terms of what I would rather see (Ponder vs. Vial), I would generally much rather see Vial.Quote:
Originally Posted by Waikiki
I've been testing this deck a lot more recently against goblins. Bringing in fog frog with chalice @ 1 is possibly THE most entertaining kill I've ever had against goblins. then I decided to be a dick and kill him with an unaided sprite.
Haha.Quote:
Originally Posted by beastman
Well, I added 4 PtE in the SB. Hydroblast didn't hit enough and having 8 Swords helps immensely in the aggro MUs.
I have also cut Ponders in favor of 3 War Monks. I plan to try Vials once I am able to grab some but for now the Goblin MU has improved a lot.
I got 3rd place at the mtgsalvation tournament. And im working on an edit version of the primer which contains my latest build. hold on.
Jak, I don't think that cutting ponders is really the way to go. I like the three that are in my list, I REALLY need them to dig for answers against aggro decks and they help me find the much needed land against loam and other mana denying decks.
They also help to find stuff like Jitte or Teegs or...every sideboard card which isn't in for Survival.
It's like "Woah I drop Survival and go nuts...else I just die".
I am just testing without them since if I did add Vials, that would be the thing to go.
This deck needs vial, plain and simple. Sure it can be moderately effective without it, but you can just blow control out of the water so much more easily with it.
You can allready blow out control. vial is good but it sux as a topdeck. Explosives takes care of vial no problem. Every build that T8 so far hasn't used vial so I dont think saying this build needs it is the right way to go without alot of testing.
I have done a lot of testing with the deck, and I really don't think the deck is as playable without vial.
because? Also what list do you recommend?
You all played the list with Ponder instead of Vial and said it is good.
Now, without any reason, the deck isn't playable without vial and Ponder is bad?
I don't see, whyI should cut Ponder for Vial.
Ponder is good for solutions and to dig for creatures and can stabilize the manabase.
I never said the deck wasn't playable without Vial. I did say I was going to test it. Having an open mind is what will take a deck to the next level. Remember when Counterbalance/Top was only played in the SB as 3 ofs? And then when it was in the MD, it was still a 3/3 split for a long time. Look how much better the decks (packing CB/Top) have gotten better since adding the 4th Top and the 4th Counterbalance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Windux
At least test it. I haven't had much time, but it doesn't hurt.
I posted my list a page or two back. Also, I never said ponder was bad, I just don't play it. The thing is, you need some other sort of permanent to abuse if you don't draw survival, and vial has so much other synergy with the deck that I think it is a neccesary include.Quote:
Originally Posted by Waikiki
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Tropical Island
3 Savannah
1 Tundra
2 Forest
4 Aether Vial
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Rhox War Monk
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Eternal Witness
1 Trygon Predator
1 Rafiq of the Many
1 Squee
1 Wonder
SB
4 Path to Exile
2 Rhox War Monk (one might become a Spore Frog)
3 Krosan Grip
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Meddling Mage
1 Genesis
3 Spell Snare
This is the list I have been testing and it has been pretty decent. I cut Ponders and a couple lands for Vials. I want to trim it down but I really like having the second Rhox, Pridemage, and Vendilion Clique. One Clique may become a Sower since if it is ever Vialed in at 4 it should be pretty devastating.
The SB is just a large list of cards that will get trimmed down depending on the meta. PtE has been great. The troubles I was having from Goblins was mostly holding them back just to not be able to handle a Goblin Chieftan that pumped all the little dudes. It also helps versus Merfolk and Elves to handle all of their Lords. I like the bears. They can shut down control, hold back combo, and Meddling Mage is great at stopping recurssion.
I really want to try it out outside of MWS, but cant for a bit so let me know what you think.
I've never found predator to be very effective main. He's just a little too slow.
He is there to resolve against Counterbalance and it is blue. Wickerbough Elder could be decent.Quote:
Originally Posted by beastman
Jak.-->
I really like your last build of the deck. I think I might give it a shot this sunday and I'll come back to give you some news on how the day went for me.
I'm usually a BIG fan of Trinket Mage and his package (Tormod's Crypt, Pithing Needle & Engineered Explosives). In this build, Trinket could also find you a Vial if needed. I really find that Trinket can tutor to find answers in games you have hard times winning Game1 (Dredge/Crypt, Planeswalkers/Pithing, Goblins/EE, Merfolks/EE...). I would like to fit it in but I really find it hard to remove anything from the list we have there.
Actually, I've builded the exact same thing except for -1 Wonder, -2 Rhox, +1 Genesis, +1 Spore Frog, +1 Eternal Witness. I'll switch a Witness for the Wonder, it's a good idea to fly over oposing 'Goyfs but I'm unsure about the Rhox... I'll give them a try and know after that if Genesis/Spore Frog were good enough over the sideboard!!!