[Deck] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)

Personally, I think that with our list has a better matchup against both Zoo and Merfolk. Force Spike has some value over here, since vial and standstill/LoA etc. will be played in the first two rounds, which gives us the option to use Force Spike. Our sideboard gives us: 4 Pyroblast, 2/3 Pithing Needle and 2/3 Pyroclasm. We intend to play this sideboard, because Merfolk is played heavily during (some) tournaments over here.
So all in all our postboard gives:
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire/Ice
4 Pyroblast
2/3 Pyroclam
(as removal)
2/3 Pithing Needle
4 Goyf (duh?)

I should be enough.

Zoo. Well it really depends on the list. Some list over here tends to play a 5-colour manabase for tribal flames. It's easy to get them manascrewed for running such a manabase. A hand that simply can answer their first threath, stifling their second fetch and wasting their land is probably a Good Game. Multiples is even better. Remember that when removing Taiga as the only land: Fire/Ice will kill both Catl and Kird Ape (if it's played).
So with Zoo: it just depends on the lists played. However this matchup should be positive in any way. Mongoose is a house against Zoo, since they cannot get rid of it. Zoo will be topdecking in Mid-Game making us they favorites. The first few turns will be vital to survive. Force Spike also helps a lot in this matchup. If you are on the play: 1 or 2 Force Spike will save you the day.
With Postboard you got:

Submerge
Bolt
Fire/Ice

This should be enough removal.

@ maveric78f

What is the benefit for playing sub-optimal cards like Threads of Disloyalty, Mind Harness óver Submerge?
You cannot simply search these cards if you only play one of them. The usual amount of cantrips you get in one game is like 2 or 3. Good luck searching an answer ánd enough counters ánd creatures.

I don't see the benefit of playing suboptimal cards. I just don't get how mind harness for instance is suboptimal over submerge. I see even less when your game plan is to manscrew your opponent and definitely cut his green spells. I'll give you a game example I encounter often :
You play against some Thresh variant. He plays a fetch, you stifle. You play goose. He plays fetch, fetches for island. You play cantrips. He plays trop island and lands a goyf. You waste his trop. He's mana screwed but you can't do anything with your submerge, although you could play Mind Harness (or threads) and win the game before he could come back into the game.

I'm not stating that Mind Harness is better than submerge neither. They are just cards that are played in different situations and different MUs too. In most cases, all the three debated cards are as good, but they do it in a different way and being able to chose the one you play in a particular situation, wins games.

(1rst post, long-reader, new poster...)

In my short testing experience with this deck, Submerge always have been awesome.

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You play against some Thresh variant. He plays a fetch, you stifle. You play goose. He plays fetch, fetches for island. You play cantrips. He plays trop island and lands a goyf. You waste his trop. He's mana screwed but you can't do anything with your submerge, although you could play Mind Harness (or threads) and win the game before he could come back into the game.

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In this case, I would simply submerge the Goyf before wasting his Tropical Island. Maybe he won't even be able to cast it back!

The problem I find with Mind Harness is that it's mana intensive, and this deck plays only 18 lands (with 4 wastes!). Sure, if you just need to clear the path FTW, it's ok since you won't have to pay the upkeep, but in this case, Submerge is even better since it costs nothing, have a CC of 5 (CB-Top considerations), and deny them 1 draw if you don't win right away.

A single Isochron Scepter sounds pretty interesting, though I wonder if it diverts from our theme too much.

Also, it's a pretty bad top deck as well and doesn't feed our graveyard.

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Originally Posted by Seb

In this case, I would simply submerge the Goyf before wasting his Tropical Island. Maybe he won't even be able to cast it back!

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The problem is that you won't wait to find sumerge to waste his trop. Of course if you have already your solution to tarmo in hand, both are good. Maybe I did not advocate enough for mind harness for you to understand how it can compete with submerge :
- you play the aggro role in most MUs against green
- if you're aggro, and your opponent tarmo (let's say the target is tarmo) is here to block you rather to aggress you in most cases. If you control it, then you have a 1-turn or 2-turns clock.
- you play stifle to keep it 1 or 2 turns more (stifle helps often to cantrip into another land or another stifle)
- it works against dragon stompy and some random decks
- it works when your opponent is green-deathed

I can also say that submerge is also very good becasue it's free, it dodges chalice and counterbalance, because it works on non green creatures, because it's hard removal in resp to a fetch, because it's instant and it allows combat tricks, etc...

The fact is that neither the one or the other is good when you have no pressure on board, because they are only tempo cards. When you have pressure and your opponent has a single creature, then I think that in most cases mind harness is better, becasue you'll kill faster thanks to the creature you've stolen. But when he's got several creatures, then submerge is probably better because it does not slow you down, becasue of combat tricks, etc... They are complementary in this way and in the fact that submerge does not need greenness and mind harness does not need forestness. The fact that you play a split between those prevents you from having twice the bad solution in SB or in hand.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

A single Isochron Scepter sounds pretty interesting, though I wonder if it diverts from our theme too much.

Also, it's a pretty bad top deck as well and doesn't feed our graveyard.

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As for myself, I play 19 lands, so maybe it's easier to support scepter. Scepter is clearly a late game card. I've seen some lists playing Coatl, Vendilion or Trygon MD and I tried those (except Coatl, because I think it's weak in this deck), and I prefer Scepter. As every late game cards, scepter will win you games just in itself but you will also keep it stuck in hand during the whole game. I'm still not sold on this choice but I like how it prevents an alternate kill and makes the deck more difficult to hate out.

but reaching the lategame is not they way we gonna win, we already discussed this point ;D isochron scepter is not as good as it seems on the paper, clique and trygon both are faster/more agressive and normally people can handle it pretty good + u lose a handcard.

Last friday I have to quit 1 land and test with 17 because I get mana flooded sometimes. Anyone who tested with 17 lands?

In my experience its too low because im running 4 wasteland.

Alternatively, you could play Counterbalance. It costs the same as scepter, but just wins the game instead of being cute. That's another deck, though. Scepter is just dead too often.

As for submerge, threads/mind harness is really nice against decks you tend to get into goyf wars with (decks that play him, I guess). I like both if you expect lots of thresh, but they do seem redundant with submerge. If you boarded in submerge in the mirror, you at least should be aware of that fact and work to bring the game state to where submerge is good. Yes, I know this sounds dumb and overly simplified. However, I've found in the mirror that both decks tend to flood much more than get screwed. Yes, there are times where someone keeps a one-lander and gets wasted out of the game. A majority of them go long because you both run more counterspells than threats. Thus, there is ample time to blow them out with submerge in response to a fetch, or just after you've found a spell snare. This way, you get to run a card that deals with other matchups rather than waste sideboard space with threads/mind harness (submerge is better in general for beating up on aggro loam and anything with tombstalker and forests).

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Originally Posted by Maveric78f

Let me change subject. What do you think about 1*isochron scepter MD in the red variant?

I personnally find it awesome with fire/ice, acting as mana denial+extra draw or desperate kill, and it's difficult for the opponent to hate out, since we don't play any other enchantment or artifact. As a consequence to this, I play echoing truth instead of the Wipe Away slot (but I keep rushing river in).

In SB, I like to play a lot of different cards. I've always thought it was the best strategy to have various dedicated redundant singletons in SB and use the cantrips to find the best of them.

Lands 19:
8 fetches
6 duals
1 island
4 wastes

Creatures 8:
4 tarmo
4 gooses

4-ofs 28:
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 BS
4 Ponder
4 Bolt
4 Fire/Ice
4 Stifle

X-ofs :
2 Spell Snare
1 Rushing River
1 Echoing Truth
1 Isochron Scepter

SB:
2 REB
1 Pyroblast
1 BEB
1 EE
2 Grip
1 Threads of Disloyalty
1 Mind Harness
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Submerge
3 Pyroclasm
1 Pithing Needle

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First of all, I run 19 lands as well. High five!

Isochron Scepter: You sir, have just answered my prayers for a juice slot in Canadian Thresh. I have often found that Caplan's list empties its hand just a little bit too fast. This issue is mitigated by Isochron Scepter. We could technically even support 2... I dismissed the idea due to never wanting to see a Scepter twice. I'm not a 100% sure, though.

On to your list, I believe Spell Snare to be a pivotal card in today's Threshold builds. An enemy's resolved Counterbalance or Tarmogoyf is a bane.
I don't think Echoing Truth is the bounce spell we want, since it is suboptimal against Counterbalance and while bouncing the most common creature in the format, it will also return your own "but I just want to be loved" Goyf to your warm embrace. And let's be honest here, nobody wants to cuddle with Lhurgoyfs.

I prefer Rushing River over Wipe Away as well since bouncing an additional permanent is sex.
Not commenting on the sideboard since I'm a bit wet behind the ears on that.


I am certainly going to continue testing the singleton Scepter since I've found it pleasing thus far.

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Originally Posted by MULocke

Alternatively, you could play Counterbalance. It costs the same as scepter, but just wins the game instead of being cute. That's another deck, though. Scepter is just dead too often.

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Exactly. Discussing Counterbalance in this deck is pointless. Therefore, I won't further comment on that part.
Could you elaborate on the "Scepter is just dead too often" statement? Because I see 12 Imprint-worthy spells on my list.

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Originally Posted by Nazgath

Exactly. Discussing Counterbalance in this deck is pointless. Therefore, I won't further comment on that part.
Could you elaborate on the "Scepter is just dead too often" statement? Because I see 12 Imprint-worthy spells on my list.

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I don't think the problem is that it's dead too often. The problem is it's a 2-for-1 if it gets countered, stifled, or destroyed. That, and it's a little too mana-intensive for this deck.

It's definitely cute though.

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Originally Posted by keys

I don't think the problem is that it's dead too often. The problem is it's a 2-for-1 if it gets countered, stifled, or destroyed. That, and it's a little too mana-intensive for this deck.

It's definitely cute though.

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The only valid point I see here is it being Stifled.

If it's countered, great! If it's destroyed.. well.
Who is going to board in artifact hate for a 1-of?

About the mana-intensiveness: I'll have to test and think more on this.

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Originally Posted by keys

The problem is it's a 2-for-1 if it gets countered, stifled, or destroyed.

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The only time it's a 2 for 1 is if it gets destroyed. You don't imprint anything if it gets countered or stifled. Game 1 it could be really strong against alot of decks (then you board it out if they see it, rendering their grips useless). But it seems just way too slow and counter intuitive for a deck like this. I think it would be more at home in a control deck.

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Originally Posted by MULocke

Alternatively, you could play Counterbalance. It costs the same as scepter,

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Wrong. You play 15 coloured lands. Paying UU is far more of a problem than paying 2.

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but just wins the game instead of being cute.

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Can you explain how a counterbalance singleton in a tempothresh list makes it a better killer card than scepter.

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Scepter is just dead too often.

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Scepter barely never does 2 for 1 since you will usually play it and activate it in the same turn. As stated before trhe 2 for 1 happens only when destroyed and not activated.

Scepter is :
- kill with bolt or fire
- creature control with fire, bolt or ice
- mana severance with ice
- card advantage with ice and brainstorm
- stall with ice or echoing truth

when you imprint fire/ice you get to choose what's your strategy every turn.

It's really versatile. Its single weakness is of being over the curve of this deck.

I haven't followed this thread for the last 5 pages, but doesn't the whole idea of using Isochron Scepter fly in the face of tempo? Also having it as a 1 off, doesn't necessarily gurantee that you draw it, and if you do then you need to put it together with an instant.

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Originally Posted by jazzykat

I haven't followed this thread for the last 5 pages, but doesn't the whole idea of using Isochron Scepter fly in the face of tempo? Also having it as a 1 off, doesn't necessarily gurantee that you draw it, and if you do then you need to put it together with an instant.

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Thats it, we would have to play the scepter turn 2 to use it since turn 3 unless it gets countered or removed. Removing a single Scepter won't be a Problem for most decks so i think we wont use scepter more than 2 times as we also want to play other spells and cant keep the 2 mana open every turn.

Also Scepter is more a control card and will just hinder ourself to swing around quick enough. If we really wanted to use the scepter we needed instands with cc 2 instead of the 3 mana solutions (predator,clique,river,wipe away) to use the scepter well but this makes the spells weak on their own if we dont draw/play the scepter.

Scepter is still only a secondary wincon. I usually play it only when I have nothing relevant else to play and/or when I have an instant to play in hand that I want to play and I have 4 manas avaible and/or when my creatures are getting controled.

Being as a 1-of, yes we don't necessarily have it when we need it, but we are quite sure not to keep it in hand when we don't need it.

From my testings, I'm quite new with this deck, so I would estimate that I've done 60 games with it on MWS, and I can definitely remember 5 games that I would have lost without Scepter :
- a game where I mana denied Ubg control (Togless), cutting green preventing it from playing tarmo or deed (imprint fire/ice)
- a game where I won the speed battle against burn (imprint bolt)
- a game where I've beaten landstill (with cunning wish) around 2 or 3 standstill (even with all this draw, he never found a solution to the scepter) (imprint bolt)
- a game where I finished off some Bant after he took control of the board. (imprint fire/ice)
- a game where Fire destroyed all the opposing gobs and stifle prevented him to continue its CA (imprint fire/ice)

I've never imprinted BS for now, but in a control MU I would not hesitate.

Considering that I've lost something around 15 games on the 60 I've played. I doubt that Scepter in the list was the determining reason why I've lost 5 of them. Moreover, if I showed it game 1, I almost always SB it out.

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Originally Posted by Maveric78f

Scepter is still only a secondary wincon. I usually play it only when I have nothing relevant else to play and/or when I have an instant to play in hand that I want to play and I have 4 manas avaible and/or when my creatures are getting controled.

Being as a 1-of, yes we don't necessarily have it when we need it, but we are quite sure not to keep it in hand when we don't need it.

From my testings, I'm quite new with this deck, so I would estimate that I've done 60 games with it on MWS, and I can definitely remember 5 games that I would have lost without Scepter :
- a game where I mana denied Ubg control (Togless), cutting green preventing it from playing tarmo or deed (imprint fire/ice)
- a game where I won the speed battle against burn (imprint bolt)
- a game where I've beaten landstill (with cunning wish) around 2 or 3 standstill (even with all this draw, he never found a solution to the scepter) (imprint bolt)
- a game where I finished off some Bant after he took control of the board. (imprint fire/ice)
- a game where Fire destroyed all the opposing gobs and stifle prevented him to continue its CA (imprint fire/ice)

I've never imprinted BS for now, but in a control MU I would not hesitate.

Considering that I've lost something around 15 games on the 60 I've played. I doubt that Scepter in the list was the determining reason why I've lost 5 of them. Moreover, if I showed it game 1, I almost always SB it out.

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I agree that Isochron Scepter isn't just cute. It wins games. I even beat D&T today by imprinting a Stifle on it, preventing AEther Vial activations. Corner case, yes, but those explained above by Maveric are not.

You will hardly encounter an opponent playing enough bounce or artifact destruction against Tempo Threshold in particular to consider Isochron Scepter card disavantage. More often than not, getting several uses out of your Fires, Ices and Lightning Bolts is, despite weird on the curve, devastating.

What ever happened to this deck having a 1 or 2 of Fledgling Dragon as a finisher? Was it just too hard to cast?