[Archetype] CounterTop

This is my current list, combines counterbalance lock with progentius to win games faster against maybe aggro decks and so.

Lands, 18

4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trygon Predator
2 Rhox War Monk
1 Progenitus

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Natural Order
2 Back to Basics
1 Krosan Grip
1 Mystical Tutor

Sideobard still to be fixed, i'm not sure about last 3 slots. Is back to basics really needed? We can play amazingly around it with Nobles, one basic of each and dazing duals.

4 Dazes and no Spell Snare. Reasons: We need a fast Counterbalance online, and when it's online spell snare does nothing, we have 10+ 2cc cost.

Why Mystical Tutor? Well, it can search fast NO in aggro mu's, krosan in response enemy cb, dreadnaught, or use it for cb (cc1 to cc5 are countered inmediately).

But it's the most debatable slot. Krosan Grip is here since i opted for Trygons instead of Qasalis, and can be searched with mystical also.

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Originally Posted by johanessen

This is my current list, combines counterbalance lock with progentius to win games faster against maybe aggro decks and so.

Lands, 18

4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trygon Predator
2 Rhox War Monk
1 Progenitus

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Natural Order
2 Back to Basics
1 Krosan Grip
1 Mystical Tutor

Sideobard still to be fixed, i'm not sure about last 3 slots. Is back to basics really needed? We can play amazingly around it with Nobles, one basic of each and dazing duals.

4 Dazes and no Spell Snare. Reasons: We need a fast Counterbalance online, and when it's online spell snare does nothing, we have 10+ 2cc cost.

Why Mystical Tutor? Well, it can search fast NO in aggro mu's, krosan in response enemy cb, dreadnaught, or use it for cb (cc1 to cc5 are countered inmediately).

But it's the most debatable slot. Krosan Grip is here since i opted for Trygons instead of Qasalis, and can be searched with mystical also.

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I kind of like the list, but I'm positive those B2B's aren't needed.
I would probably replace them with 1 Path to Exile and 1 Pridemage/ Tutor target.

I found that in most matchup's gettin b2b means win the game. I think that's enough to include it in main board.

Atm, the sideobard looks like that:

4 Meddling Mage (Gaddok hurts us too much)
4 Hydroblast
4 Relic of Progenitus
2 Path to Exile
1 Krosan Grip

What are some good sideboard cards for the CounterTop mirror match? The best I can come up with are Sower of Temptation and Back to Basics.

I'm running Ugw, by the way.

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Originally Posted by Kuma

What are some good sideboard cards for the CounterTop mirror match? The best I can come up with are Sower of Temptation and Back to Basics.

I'm running Ugw, by the way.

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For me it depends on your battle plan. If you having a hard time against counterbalance lock, which in generally all thresh builds do, I'll side in trygon predators & krosan grips.

Sower is nice but if you'll go the creature steal route , i prefer threads of disloyalty better as compared to sower of temptation

If your opponent counters with creature steal plan just be ready so you could deal with threats like sower of temptation or threads of disloyalty

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Originally Posted by Kuma

What are some good sideboard cards for the CounterTop mirror match? The best I can come up with are Sower of Temptation and Back to Basics.

I'm running Ugw, by the way.

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If your list is not already running them, Shackles can be a game breaker in a mirror match with CounterTop decks.

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If your list is not already running them, Shackles can be a game breaker in a mirror match with CounterTop decks.

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I will agree here, Shackels are game changing, and not just in the mirror. I pretty much MD them in decks where I play Counter/Top.

Hey, Just split finals at a local tournament winning grim tutor and 75 store credit. Used a similar build to what Brizentine Empire posted on the previous page but with a different sideboard and -1 krosan grip and +1 trygon for the main. Basically if my opponent wasn't playing tempo thresh or was the mirror with vedalken shackles i was not worried. Those are the only decks i worry about. On to my point, how do you beat temp thresh? what is your hoser?

I played against temp thresh twice within the 5 rounds of swiss, losing rd 3 and winning in my rd 5. Rd 3 wend to 3 games, really good player and a terrible match up for us. Rd 5, the player made mistakes such as turn 2 tapping out for tarmogoyf so on my turn i can fetch for all my lands etc.

How i have been siding is
-2 sower of temptation
-2 trygon predator
-2 Firespout
+2 relic of progenitus
+2 back to basics
+2 EE

They bring in several pithing needle naming either fetch lands or top or relic, and red blasts.

What is your tech or do we just have to get lucky?

thanks

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Originally Posted by Legacy

Hey, Just split finals at a local tournament winning grim tutor and 75 store credit. Used a similar build to what Brizentine Empire posted on the previous page but with a different sideboard and -1 krosan grip and +1 trygon for the main. Basically if my opponent wasn't playing tempo thresh or was the mirror with vedalken shackles i was not worried. Those are the only decks i worry about. On to my point, how do you beat temp thresh? what is your hoser?

I played against temp thresh twice within the 5 rounds of swiss, losing rd 3 and winning in my rd 5. Rd 3 wend to 3 games, really good player and a terrible match up for us. Rd 5, the player made mistakes such as turn 2 tapping out for tarmogoyf so on my turn i can fetch for all my lands etc.

How i have been siding is
-2 sower of temptation
-2 trygon predator
-2 Firespout
+2 relic of progenitus
+2 back to basics
+2 EE

They bring in several pithing needle naming either fetch lands or top or relic, and red blasts.

What is your tech or do we just have to get lucky?

thanks

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Oshawa for 2 Grim Tutors? We played in the first round of top 8 and one of my playtest partners is the guy you split with. (He is unknown2 on here btw) Shackles is definitely a game breaker in the mirror isn't it...

You could use Ancient Grudge to hit the Needles with the added utility of blowing up Shackles in the mirror, or things like Chalice@1 from other decks. I was considering one or two for my board for that purpose but didn't end up running it. More blasts in both colours can also be useful.

I've been playing frequently against Tempo Thresh with CounterTop, and I've been wondering/discussing with players at my store how to properly sideboard against Tempo Thresh. The main question is whether or not boarding out Counterbalance is a good idea. The card has the potential to wreck Tempo Thresh, but at the same time Tempo Thresh runs Force, Daze, Spell Snare, Krosan Grip, Red Elemental Blast/Pyroblast, Engineered Explosives and Trygon Predator. I think that it isn't worth the resources and effort to fight over Counterbalance when Tempo Thresh runs so many hate cards, but most players I talk to disagree.

What do you think? What would you sideboard out and in against Tempo Thresh?

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Originally Posted by Kuma

I've been playing frequently against Tempo Thresh with CounterTop, and I've been wondering/discussing with players at my store how to properly sideboard against Tempo Thresh. The main question is whether or not boarding out Counterbalance is a good idea. The card has the potential to wreck Tempo Thresh, but at the same time Tempo Thresh runs Force, Daze, Spell Snare, Krosan Grip, Red Elemental Blast/Pyroblast, Engineered Explosives and Trygon Predator. I think that it isn't worth the resources and effort to fight over Counterbalance when Tempo Thresh runs so many hate cards, but most players I talk to disagree.

What do you think? What would you sideboard out and in against Tempo Thresh?

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I've played this matchup from both sides, and really it tends to be very close (for me), it usually went to three games.

I would always leave CB/Top in against Tempo Thresh, if it sticks and you don't screw up they're pretty much done. Most of their hate cards get stopped by CB. Not to mention that you play counters as well, and if you play Blue Blasts you should probably bring them in (for their red blasts + burn)

If they're bringing in so much "hate" against CB then they're probably siding out some number of burn spells, which makes all of your creatures even better. Rhox War Monk is a beast, and anything with exalted gives your Tarmo's an edge against there's. Most tempo lists only run 8 dudes, and in order to be comfortable spending mana on their own turn to run them out they have to be sure you're not going to just slam a bomb down on your turn with the opening.

Playing the waiting game against Tempo Thresh can sometimes help. If they can't beat you early with disruption they're going to have a hard time beating you at all. Play around daze, let your lands build up (wait to crack fetches), and then beat them in the late game with more+bigger creatures.

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Originally Posted by Kuma

The main question is whether or not boarding out Counterbalance is a good idea.

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It would be like popping your penis into a lawn mower.

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The card has the potential to wreck Tempo Thresh

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That is the very description of what Counterbalance does with Tempo Thresh.

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but at the same time Tempo Thresh runs Force, Daze, Spell Snare, Krosan Grip, Red Elemental Blast/Pyroblast, Engineered Explosives and Trygon Predator.

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...because they just don't want to get wrecked by Counterbalance. :-D

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I think that it isn't worth the resources and effort to fight over Counterbalance when Tempo Thresh runs so many hate cards, but most players I talk to disagree.

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If you win a resource fight and be able to force through Counterbalance, it will most likely shut down every card TempoThresh plays.

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What do you think? What would you sideboard out and in against Tempo Thresh?

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I would just board in some Jotun Grunts or Relics. Board out random crap like a few cantrips, UGW manabases should be stable anyway. But I never dedicated more than 2 or 3 slots against the mirror. The key is so pilot well and yeah, stick Counterbalance. It will win you the game.

agreed w/ poster above, cb+top > tempothresh.
a resolved top should win you the game here actually just based on card quality.
if you stick a cb, you pretty much cant lose.
the only issue would be if u cant get a goyf and they woop you w/ a t1 mongoose.

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Originally Posted by RogueMTG

...and if you play Blue Blasts you should probably bring them in (for their red blasts + burn)

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I was wondering about this, is bringing in the blue blasts for that really worth it? Others experience really appreciated.

I was wondering if you have firespout main or side, do you make sure they are in your deck for game 2 and 3? At least this way you have something like 3 firespout for their 4 geese and 4 swords for their for goyfs.

My strategy against temp thresh is build up land as much as possible until they have put pressure on you. Even then, they can just stifle your fetch then double waste and you are down to 0-1 lands. Their deck is just built to beat out type of deck, with that said, the longer you can wait to play spells and grab lands the better you will do.

I personally play firespouts main...they are so very good against merfolk, goblins, and thresh...which are very prevelent in my meta (vestal, ny)

i leave firespouts in for thresh...they are really good helping to fight geese...and serve as a critical 3 cc card to keep on top when you have counterbalance, thus protecting yourself from krosan grip

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

I'm someone that is on a budget and I was wondering if there are any UGr variants of CounterTop that are viable, even if they are not Tier-1. I lack access to Tundras so I can't play UGw variants.

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I'd say Dreadstill ist one of the archetypes beside Countertop which is pretty strong on UGR if you can't run tundra u wont't be able to play dreadnought or?

If not here is the UGR Countertop list i favor:

4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trygon Predator
2 Lorescale Coatl

4 Counterbalance
4 senseis divining top
4 daze
4 brainstorm
3 spell snare
4 lightning bolt
1 engineered explosives
1 vedalken shackles
4 force of will
3 ponder

4 Wasteland
4 tropical island
3 polluted delta
3 flooded strand
4 volcanic island
2 island

Sideboard:

3 Pyroblast
3 Firespout
2 Submerge
2 Control Magic
2 krosan grip
3 relic of progenitus

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Originally Posted by sauce

agreed w/ poster above, cb+top > tempothresh.
a resolved top should win you the game here actually just based on card quality.
if you stick a cb, you pretty much cant lose.
the only issue would be if u cant get a goyf and they woop you w/ a t1 mongoose.

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Just a nitpick, sticking a CB is kind of irrelivant compaired to sticking a top(in the tempo matchup). Top is about twice as good in that matchup because they can just use burn to play around CB, Top provides infinate land quality and alot of major issues, so in reality the card to fight over is top not CB imo. Im not happy to see CB resolve, but I would force top before forcing CB, top generates additional CBs/forces/goyfs/ISLAND:mad: and so on.

Looking for some advice on my most up to date CB list. Here ya go.

20 Land

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Island

10 Creatures

3 Rhox War Monk
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Trygon Predator
2 Sower of Temptation

28 Other Spells

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
2 Vedalken Shackles
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Ponder
2 Firespout

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance

15 Sideboard
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Krosan Grip
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Firespout
1 Trygon Predator

More testing and substantive discussion; less "here's my list, what do you think?" posts. (Not picking on Jayzonious in particular--just needs to be said.)

This is one of the worst threads on the site for that and it's burdening this thread for lack of content.

I've seen Mongoose not being included in alot of lists in this thread. Is War Monk taking it's place? I must be one of the only people that still play it this style of deck. I still like it because it has shroud.