Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo
Quote:
Also, once you resolve conflux you win the game on the spot with this deck. You opponent has no outs, as you get force of will instantly at least I do with conflux.
except if opponent has a quasali pridemage, krosan grip, disencahnt, naturalize if you wish and all dumb destroy target enchantment cards... There is still a thing called stack and priority, combined with a timed dream halls removal this deck is pretty much in a "pants down butt up" situation :really: A competent player will know how to screw you, and there is a lot more ways to deal with enchantment and conflux on the stack than it is with hive mind + pact (indeed there is stifle, but that's mostly only in rug..). Additionally there is the teeg, + cannonist that will slow you down a turn or lock you up entirely in teeg scenario..
You guys don't see these situations as a problem? Don't get me wrong, I find the dream halls a lot more epic but I find the hive mind a lot more resiliant and more of a "sure thing" deck.
Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dark Ritual
We can't lose to stifle like hive mind does, and we don't use the attack step. Also, casting conflux is infinitely funner than casting emrakul or pact of the titan.
Also, how is this dck $260 to complete when you already have show and tells? Dream halls costs 4 at most. Unless you don't have intuitions, I don't see how it can cost that much. But even intuition doesn't cost more than 140 for a set.
4 intuition, 4 dream halls, 4 conflux, 3 progenitus, 2 city of traitors, 2 beacon of immortality, 2 false cure, and 3 cruel ultimatum. not all of it is necessary but I like to have options.
Also, if 4 flusterstorm is recommended then i need 2 more of those, so 290$ roughly.
BTW, congrats on your win.
Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr Miagi
Don't get me wrong, I find the dream halls a lot more epic but I find the hive mind a lot more resiliant and more of a "sure thing" deck.
What Ari Lax said about Show and Tell in one of his SCG articles fits here: "Show and Tell is a broken card, but I just don't feel that it's enough to use it for cheating Emrakul or Progenitus into play." So the strongest Show and Tell strategy should be one that wins 100 % after a resolved Show and Tell.
Well, with all 3 major strategies (Dream Halls, Hive Mind, Creature) it is impossible to win 100 %, even if Show and Tell resolves. But in my opinion, Hive Mind is the one hardest to stop once it hits the battlefield. If you have Dream Halls, you can still get your Conflux countered. Once you have Hive Mind, every counter is countered immediately and all you need is a pact your opponent can't pay for.
Against the Fatties there are the most answers (Karakas, Wing Shards, perish, jace, moat, humility, peacekeeper, etc...), but in the Sneak Show build we are well equipped to fight the hate, since we play 2 creatures with different immunities and have 2 different ways to cheat them into play, of which one (Sneak Attack) protects them from things like Jace and also from Karakas (since we can just activate Sneak Attack again).
Overall, all 3 Show and Tell decks have their ups and downs. Hive Mind is probably the slowest one, and the combo is pretty hard to assemble, but once your Hive Mind is on the table, it's game over. Sneak Show is the most popular one and the one where you can't make that many mistakes playing it. Because of Lotus Petals, it is also the fastest.
Dream Halls is a little bit faster or more consistent in getting his namesake card onto the battlefield than Hive Mind, but from there it doesn't win as definitely.
I am still unsure which one is the best one for the current metagame..
Just my general opinion, I am open for discussion.
Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rxavage
4 intuition, 4 dream halls, 4 conflux, 3 progenitus, 2 city of traitors, 2 beacon of immortality, 2 false cure, and 3 cruel ultimatum. not all of it is necessary but I like to have options.
Also, if 4 flusterstorm is recommended then i need 2 more of those, so 290$ roughly.
BTW, congrats on your win.
I mostly assumed you had city of traitors, since you said you had sneak and show (the builds I'm familiar with, although I'm not really familiar with the sneak show archetype, run 2 city of traitors or more.) But yeah that totals out to be about 290 based on SCG prices, if you're patient you might be able to get it for less. I digress though.
I really don't see krosan grip in legacy much at all nowadays. K grip was an answer to counterbalance in 08, that was the main use for the card was breaking up the countertop softlock. I don't see maverick sideboards using it, nor do I see it in RUG sideboards. Disenchant and other such cards can be countered, making them less potent. Not to mention against decks packing disenchant, namely esperblade and UW stoneblade, they'll have to have 2 mana up to cast it as having a white card to pitch to cast disenchant is unlikely against them as postboard, they are going to have very few white cards in their deck as white cards are generally terrible against show and tell strategies. Also it isn't out of the question for you to get a dream halls out, cast another dream halls by pitching something, making enchantment destruction void unless they can blow up 2 copies of dream halls. It also helps that against esperblade you have all day to set up a hand to plow through anything the opponent has in terms of hate. Also, even if the opponent blows up the halls in response to conflux, you still get to resolve a conflux for another dream halls or a SnT into progenitus the next turn or something to win against them.
Also, losing to stifle sucks. Maybe you haven't heard, but canadian thresh is in the top 3 decks in legacy and lots of thresh players play stifle. Another problem with hive mind is 6 mana is a lot harder to hit versus 5 mana, and if hardcast is easily dazed or spell pierced while dream halls is 5 despite the UU in the cost 5 mana > 6 mana. And you have to assume you don't get show and tell every game with this deck, sure show and tell is nice because halls for 2U beats dream halls at 3UU. And there's that nice duress clause on show and tell, as the opponent has to counter it or you get dream halls in play and even if they do counter it you still have dream halls in hand to potentially hardcast next turn.
Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo
The things that are impressing me most about Dream Halls (as opposed to Sneak & Show or Hive Mind) are the internal synergy and the relative compactness of the combo. Your plan B (Progenitus + Show and Tell) is actually part of your main combo, so you aren't wasting slots on it like you do w/ Emrakul in Hive Mind decks, and if you've got Progenitus and Dream Halls but no Conflux you can still cheat Progenitus into play that way. And all of this fits in relatively few slots, so instead of filling the deck w/ 10 pacts, a bunch of Grim Monoliths and some Emrakuls that are often dead you can load up on more cantrips, which makes the whole deck feel more consistent, and more disruption, which gives you a better chance of actually resolving your combo.
The down side, of course, is that you don't get these "my Hive Mind hit play and I won before I even passed priority" kind of wins. Plus, you need a certain number of cards in hand to actually go off, so a resolved Liliana or Sword of Feast & Famine can really screw you over.
Oh, and it's a fun deck. The look on peoples' face when you cast Conflux is just awesome.
Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dark Ritual
Also, losing to stifle sucks.
Stifle doesn't really stop Hive Mind, since you play around 10 pacts (and 4 Intuition) while they play 4 Stifle.
About the compactness of the combo: I think the combo itself is compact, but since you need to search for different cards which are dead otherwise (like Conflux or Beacon and False Cure) you actually have less room for Protection and disruption. You only get to play 4 FoW and 3-4 Daze main, while Hive Mind plays 4 FoW, 4 Pact of Negation and 1 or 2 Flusterstorm / Spell Pierce and Sneak Show even packs control packages like 4 FoW, 2 Misdirection, 3 Spell Pierce, 3 Daze.
Still, I totally understand your point. And it's definitely more exciting than just putting an Emrakul into play and winning from there.
Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JPAnghelescu
Stifle doesn't really stop Hive Mind, since you play around 10 pacts (and 4 Intuition) while they play 4 Stifle.
About the compactness of the combo: I think the combo itself is compact, but since you need to search for different cards which are dead otherwise (like Conflux or Beacon and False Cure) you actually have less room for Protection and disruption. You only get to play 4 FoW and 3-4 Daze main, while Hive Mind plays 4 FoW, 4 Pact of Negation and 1 or 2 Flusterstorm / Spell Pierce and Sneak Show even packs control packages like 4 FoW, 2 Misdirection, 3 Spell Pierce, 3 Daze.
Still, I totally understand your point. And it's definitely more exciting than just putting an Emrakul into play and winning from there.
I'll admit, Sneak & Show plays a bigger control package, although they do so by playing fewer cantrips (not crazy fewer, but fewer). Hive Mind is more of an edge case. It's got the playset of Pact of Negations, but they're dead cards early game because they can't pay the cost. It's awesome on the combo turn, but you have to save it for the combo turn.
Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rooneg
I'll admit, Sneak & Show plays a bigger control package, although they do so by playing fewer cantrips (not crazy fewer, but fewer). Hive Mind is more of an edge case. It's got the playset of Pact of Negations, but they're dead cards early game because they can't pay the cost. It's awesome on the combo turn, but you have to save it for the combo turn.
You generally want to save your counters for the combo turn - at least against other decks that play counters -, since resolving your combo means winning. Against decks like Goblins or Maverick, where you want to be able to Daze a Knight of the Reliquary or a Nacatl, or spell pierce the Vial, the Pact of Negation is very dead indeed (only good if they can pay for the Titan/Summoner's/Slaughter's pact and you need it for that; so it IS dead as a counter).
Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo
Stifle is basically a hard counter against hive mind for U, as countermagic when hive mind is in play is quite useless. Not to mention DAZE is seeing a lot of play, which also hoses hive mind provided they have mana up to pay for your daze copy. So there's virtually 8 outs for RUG against this deck. And you literally HAVE to have double pact against them virtually all the time, as a single pact won't do the job making it a 3 card combo against their deck. Spell pierce also works in the daze scenario if they have 3 untapped lands, sure this is less likely but having all this countermagic against a combo deck helps too. If you have to pact of negation to resolve a hive mind/SnT, you have to have a pretty stacked hand to win. That's why hive mind is just super meh right now, canadian thresh has so many answers to it.
And there's the sad part that if the opponent has double stifle in their hand against hive mind, they're virtually unbeatable if they have a clock as double stifle is basically the nuts against hive mind.
Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JPAnghelescu
Stifle doesn't really stop Hive Mind, since you play around 10 pacts (and 4 Intuition) while they play 4 Stifle.
About the compactness of the combo: I think the combo itself is compact, but since you need to search for different cards which are dead otherwise (like Conflux or Beacon and False Cure) you actually have less room for Protection and disruption. You only get to play 4 FoW and 3-4 Daze main, while Hive Mind plays 4 FoW, 4 Pact of Negation and 1 or 2 Flusterstorm / Spell Pierce and Sneak Show even packs control packages like 4 FoW, 2 Misdirection, 3 Spell Pierce, 3 Daze.
Still, I totally understand your point. And it's definitely more exciting than just putting an Emrakul into play and winning from there.
However, Dream halls is usually playing more cantrip instead of the protection (3-4 preordain), as far as I know. Which is why I would like to ask, could it be better to cut the preordains and cram in more protection (spell pierce, flusterstorm)? For example, when we see that list that top 8ed last sunday, the lack of preordain (dropped for a second combo main deck in his case) did not seem to hinder in the end ( actually, no games from him were shown so I guess we don't really know).
And also, to add to the post above mine, isn't flusterstorm also a "screw you" card against hive mind? normally, if you play flusterstorm, the hive mind player doesn't get the storm trigger meaning the hive mind player is in trouble no?
Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo
Ended up playing the build from Ari Lax's SCG article at SCG Providence this weekend. I went 5 and 3, getting my third loss in round 8. If I'd won that match I'd have stayed for the final round, but with a third loss I figured 10 hours of magic was enough, so I headed home to put my daughter to bed. Oddly enough, my tiebreakers were awesome and I ended up finishing in the money, 64th place.
Anyway, I beat a weird Fauna Shaman based food chain combo deck w/ a Vengevine backup plan, RUG Delver (he finished in 11th place), Dredge (twice) and Maverick. Lost to Dredge (once), Storm w/ Past in Flames and Maverick.
The wins were pretty standard. About half the time I won via Progenitus, half the time I won w/ Dream Halls into a Conflux chain. The 6 grave hate cards in the board were awesome against dredge, and the only post-board game I lost to dredge (more about that later) was very close.
The losses are of course more interesting, so I'll talk about them a bit more.
First, my round 3 match against dredge. Game 1 he ran me over, had a ton of zombies on the board on turn 2 and I conceded in response to cabal therapy so he wouldn't know what I was playing. Game 2 I brought in the 6 grave hate cards and an echoing truth. He got a reasonable start, but I had some hate. I surgical extraction his initial dredger (probably wrong, should have held off for an ichorid or a narcomaeoba) then he tore my hand apart and I sat there while he built up a small army of zombies. At the last second I drew a ravenous trap and exiled the majority of his deck and then topdecked the echoing truth to get rid of his army. Unfortunately I was at 3 life, but he had hardly any deck left (like 6 or 7 cards). He managed to kill me with a Putrid Imp before I found a kill condition.
Next, my match against Storm Combo (round 5?). Game 1 I kept a turn two kill hand w/o any Force of Will (didn't know what he was playing), but he won the die roll and killed me before I took a turn. Game 2 I boarded in a bunch of counterspells and the surgical extractions, kept a reasonably fast hand w/ some disruption, but he managed to kill me on turn 2 or 3 despite me surgical extractioning his dark ritual to keep him off of threshold w/ cabal ritual on the stack.
Finally, my round 8 match against Maverick. Game 1 I kept a hand w/ most of the combo kill, he built a small army and was about to kill me, I Show and Tell to put Dream Halls into play with 1 card left in his hand, that card ends up being Qasali Pridemage and he destroys my Dream Halls in response to my Conflux. I die next turn. Game 2 I kept a 6 card hand w/ Dream Halls, Conflux, Island, Ancient Tomb and 2 Intuition. Plan is to turn 2 intuition for Show and Tell, turn 3 win. On his turn two he zeniths for 2, I Intuition for Daze and counter it. I draw a Preordain, replay my Island and pass the turn, on his turn he zeniths for 2 again, I reluctantly Intuition for FoW and counter it pitching Conflux. Next turn I start digging for the kill, on his turn he zeniths a third time, I can't stop it and he gets Teeg. I end up dying w/ the combo kill in hand but without any way to bounce Teeg. Apparently he opened a hand w/ three Green Sun's Zenith in it.
Anyway, the deck was solid all day long, even the matches I lost I felt like I had a chance. Will definitely be playing the deck again.
Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo
Alright so it seems we have a dream halls deck in this week's SCG top 8. Pretty standard list, but an interesting sideboard, running, for instance, 2 Vendilion Clique. Here's the list:
Enchantments
4 Dream Halls
Instants
1 Beacon Of Immortality
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
1 False Cure
4 Force of Will
4 Intuition
1 Pact of Negation
Legendary Creatures
4 Progenitus
Sorceries
4 Conflux
4 Ponder
3 Preordain
4 Show and Tell
Basic Lands
6 Island
Lands
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
Sideboard:
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Dispel
3 Echoing Truth
3 Flusterstorm
1 Gigadrowse
2 Ravenous Trap
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Wipe Away
2 Vendilion Clique
Also, why did he play just one macabre? Why not just go for 3 macabre right away and cur the traps? is there something I am missing?
Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ThediscoPower
Also, why did he play just one macabre? Why not just go for 3 macabre right away and cur the traps? is there something I am missing?
Diverse grave hate is better against dredge.
Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo
Are the intuitions sided out usually? I'm trying to determine their importance to the deck.
Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rxavage
Are the intuitions sided out usually? I'm trying to determine their importance to the deck.
Pretty damn important actually, because they let you win faster more consistently. Usually, you only side them out if you feel like you are going to see extirpate/surgical extraction in game 2.
Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dsck
Diverse grave hate is better against dredge.
Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo
Do you feel Dream Halls is a better S&T deck than Sneak & Show?
My main considerations why sneak attack is a better choice is:
- Pyroblast is much stronger versus Dream Halls.
- You have to run more "dead" cards instead of more protection.
- Dream Halls can be disrupted while the enchantment is on board.
The advantage of Dream halls that comes to mind is that it provides an insta-kill given there is no Humility etc on the board, whereas the kill with sneak&show is still somewhat conditional.
Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo
Hi guys & gals,
I'd like to thanks everyone for their efforts in this thread.
Read from start to finish, cheers!
I'm looking to build one of these decks, and despite the wonderful UR version with Burning Wish, and the UB version with Lim-Dul's Vault - I like the Mono Blue approach better....seems that's a popular thought!:laugh:
I'd like to ask a few questions though.
How do you combat a Gaddock Teeg / Etherwsorn Canonist /Qasali Pridemage that hits the board?
I've been goldfishing a version with about 10 counters, and I sometimes still get one hit the board. Considering the number of decks that run stuff with 2cmc, would including some Spell Snare be viable?
I'm reluctant to run CUnning Wish..... How do I get around Teeg? (especially)
So far I've been enjoying áll of the Cruel Ultimatum (with and w/o Nucklavee) and Intuition build's. This is a fun deck to play! But so far, the version that doesn't care about the graveyard, or ways to win off a single Conflux seems the strongest option to me. I see a lot of Surgical Extraction, so Cruel Ultimatum seemed a little flaky in some matchups - even though it seemed like the most fun way to play the deck.
Is this the most resilient way to do it - Conflux with Beacon?
Lastly, (I know this is gonna sound subpar), but would 1 or 2 Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker be an option for this deck?
I'm mainly thinking of ways to get around hate - whether it's Glacial Chasm, Canonist, Pridemage, Teeg etc.
The biggest probem is the inability to hardcast it, but SnT (into DreamHalls) makes it possible turn 1 or 2 play, and his ability to kill any permanent or steal whatever decent creature they play should be an autoscoop for some decks.
It's a given this is unlikely play, and it's been that way so far with only 2 of them in the deck in testing - but it's been hilarious to nuke a players basic lands one by one in goldfishing. On a side, its' three colours make it first choice as a pitch to Force against storm combo on T1.
SHould Bolas stick around, the ultimate is an autowin for your combo turn as you nerf their hand and pretty much anything they have in play that Nic hasn't already destroyed.
Is this stupid?
Probably....but it's also a very fun card to play.
Thoughts?
Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
catmint
Do you feel Dream Halls is a better S&T deck than Sneak & Show?
My main considerations why sneak attack is a better choice is:
- Pyroblast is much stronger versus Dream Halls.
- You have to run more "dead" cards instead of more protection.
- Dream Halls can be disrupted while the enchantment is on board.
The advantage of Dream halls that comes to mind is that it provides an insta-kill given there is no Humility etc on the board, whereas the kill with sneak&show is still somewhat conditional.
Dream Halls > Omniscience c/o Conflux seems to be the best play for me, especially since Omni can cast Grisel, draw into an Emrakul etc....
Sneak and SHow is pretty hrd to beat though, I'm not sure if Halls is as strong tbh.
Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo
So I've been tinkering with the deck a bit.
False Cure & Beacon of Immortality is pretty strong, but for those rare occasions I've actually drawn it - black discard has immediately forced me to scoop on their turn 1!!:cry:
As strange as it sounds, of the three expected targetted discard (inq, Duress, Thoughtsieze), Inquisition is the only one I can do anything about, as the rest of my combo is beyond reach, and Inq. is by far the most common where I am.
So!!!
I've been playing with this list casually against a few of my friends' legacy decks.
So far it's been pretty killer against a lot of matchups, even if the win con is a bit convoluted, as there is quite a few different ways for me to win provided I can cast Conlfux in the first place.
Here's my current list;
Biz;
4 Conflux
4 Dream Halls
1 Omniscience
Post combo;
1 Myojin of Cleansing Fire
1 Obliterate
2 Cruel Ultimatum
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
1 Liliana Vess
Chaff;
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Preordain
4 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Lotus Petal
4 Ancestral Knowledge
& about 18 to 20 lands including fetches, basics etc for Mono-Blue.
How it works;
Conflux > Wheel, Myojin, Conflux, Conflux, Omni.
Cast Wheel, Discarding Myojin.
Cast Omni, putting Conflux on bottom of the deck, then COnflux for Cruel Ult. and go from there.
This is a fairly budget version of the deck, as I'm not packing Force of Will, and I'm using a minimal number of fetches, and Saprazzan Skerry instead of stuff like City of Traitors / Ancient Tomb, but it is still fairly consistent in getting a turn 4 win against decks that don't run a huge counter suite or a huge amount of discard, or decks that don't punish you for not paying Force of Will on turn 0.
I'm honestly thinking of popping in one more G/W card just for more targets for COnflux, the only one I've thought of that doesn't take consistency away from the deck might be Noxious Revival. Any suggestions?
