[Deck] Aggro Loam

@DDK: It depends on what you meta is like. If youplay against a lot of people running CB and Tempo decks then Chalice can make the cut. That is really the big discussion, as to the viability of the card right now. I personally think 4-6 StP effects are way better, but the combo matchup certainly takes a hit ... then again, even back in the old RGb lists w Chalice, combo was still a beating. On of my buddies runs a list w 4 Chalice main and Null Rod in the board and still has maybe a 30-35% chance against combo. He is also running 4 colors and a bunch of "cute" lands for Knight and it seems like everytime I see him in some weird position he is hampered because he has a Maze or Tabernacle in play that can't tap for mana.

The other undecided debate is on Burning Wish. The most common argument against is "its 2 slow" but I'm not sure how an answer-all spell that is never dead and starts to have relevance on turns 1-3 everytime is to slow but ... whatever. I will never understand why people don't run Wish in here but .. its always an option.

All of your questions can be answered by analyzing your meta. What do you expect to see? The best creatures in the deck ... that will never be decided. A while ago I ran Dark Confidant and just despised it but yet some people swear by it. My buddy runs a creature base of: 4x Terravore, 4x Knight, 4x Crusher which he seems to like and, well I don't. The only thing most can agree on is colors, 3 color is generally the best due to the manabase. When playing 4x Wasteland and 6-9 lands that only add 1 type of mana, 4-color manabases are very rough and quite reliant on Mox Diamond. I love the 4-color builds (mainly because I get to run Stronghold) but it sacrifices too much consistency.

Really the only matchups I have written off are Dredge and storm combo. However, storm is entirely beatable with the white Leyline, Wastelands and adequate pressure but its still not good. The Belcher matchup post-board was literally 50/50 when I tested which I was very happy with, but Tendrils is .... not great unless your playing against ANT which is the weakest Tendrils deck ATM. Dredge is and always will be a nightmare for this deck. Unless they mull into oblivion or get really unlucky you are gong to lose. Even if you run Morningtide or something like that in the wishboard ... its doesn't help. But against nearly every other deck in the format you have a great chance and Elves, Goblins, Merfolk, Zoo, Landstill, Team America, Bant, you are certainly a favorite.

@nameless one: One of my other buddies used to run Bloodbraid Elf and totally loved it, but he really only liked it when you hit DD. It can't block anything and live, dies to every form of spot removal and is entirely random in nature. He liked playing it for the LOLs but you just randomly hit Mox or another Loam and after that the creature is largely worthless. When he took 2nd at SCG Orlando he had totally cut Bloodbraid from his list. Is it a viable option, sure, but there are a lot better creatures to play.

Top is a lot better than Scroll Rack if you want to play a card filtering effect. Rack is only good if you have multiple cards in hand while Top is ALWAYS relevant. When you are winning its cool to draw three cards then put shit back on top an dredge them away but its really not entirely necessary. I would run Sylvan Library over Scroll Rack but thats me. Again, I have read a few people liking this card but it really only seems good if you are winning and have a lot of cards in hand. Totally awesome with Crusher but, lets be honest, ur probably winning at that point anyway.

Hey guys,
This deck seems pretty well-positioned going into the post-Mental Misstep metagame. The major issue I jave with this deck is the noticably lower win percentages when I do not see Mox Diamond. Has anyone tested a single Chrome Mox? I also like running a Sylvan Library in addition to the Bobs, and this has the potential for making up for the card disadvantage a bit...

After a casual read of the thread, I noticed that there's one card glaringly absent from the discussion: Gamble.

It is my opinion that Gamble is one of the best tutors available to us. I play it in Lands.dec, and it has advantages over Crop Rotation, Burning Wish, and Entomb; I'm wondering whether the card was tested and tossed aside or just forgotten...

Any thoughts?

I guess Gamble never was an option, case this deck used to play Chalice main, but now, since CotV is more often moved to the board or cut in general, it might be useful.
The best cards to tutor for aside from Loam are probably Bojuka Bog and Wasteland (maybe also Maze of Ith and parts of the Punishing Fire engine if played). Unlike Lands you can't reliable tutor up solution cards like EE/Ruins. Another thing is that you will rarely gamble during your first turns, cause you don't want to risk to discard important cards like Confidant or Crusher. So Gamble does almost the same job KotR does, plus the Knight is not soft to MM which we run just a few targets for and which is very popular atm. The downside is that Knight can just eat a StP.
Gamble would be a nice 1-drop for the deck, but due to the fact it won't be played often during the first turns, it doesn't help beeing less Mox-dependent T1, so it could be included as a 2-3 of or something, but the space is really tight, so i doubt it will see play.

Imma also post this here seeing how it fly's unseen in the rock thread. It is essentially aggro loam with black instead of red, for better combo options. I was the only other player playing loam in the emerald tourney and very easily could have top 8'd due to the metagame having a glaring weakness to wasteland(and my two losses coming to decks with all basics...:/). I would be more than happy to discuss card choices as the deck has remained mostly the same for over two years.

Take the good with the bad i guess.... I just went 3-2-1 at the southern california mox emerald tourney toady using my loam-tombstalker build.

// Lands
4 [ON] Barren Moor
3 [R] Bayou
1 [LRW] Forest (2)
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [R] Savannah
1 [b] Scrubland
1 [8E] Swamp (4)
4 [ON] Tranquil Thicket
3 [TE] Wasteland
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
3 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [OD] Terravore
3 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (4)
4 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [b] Swords to Plowshares
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize

// Sideboard
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Smother
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Vindicate
3 Runed Halo

I couldn't have been happier with the main deck but I feel that the fourth wasteland should be there somewhere. The sideboard was made when I saw the metagame at the event and also performed well.

I forgot to write down names but here is a brief report:
Round One(U/B Dark Depths)
Game One: I lead with a thoughtseize and a hymn and quickly follow that up with a terravore to apply some of the beats. He plays a dark confidant which is swords'd and a Jace which is irrelevant. I have no idea what is going on but get the easy win.
Game Two: Seeing how I put him on U/B control I sided in Gaddock Teegs for explosives, I thoughtseized him seeing the hexmage and by then it was too late and a 20/20 came to my side of the table to say hello.
Game Three: I keep a solid hand with two fast tombstalkers and a swords and he mulligans to five. On his turn two he combos off and meets the swords, on turn three he does it again. FML. 0-1

Round Two(Storm Combo)
Game One: He eats a double hymn and is never actually in the game, I am able to waste the two duals he plays and tarmogoyf/bob swing for the win.
Game Two: Turn One Gaddock Teeg turn two runed halo on tendrils....gg?

Round Three(Combo Elves)
Game One: I draw and play four thoughtseize this game, those remove a priest of titania, two natural orders and a perfect. That coupled with a swords and two goyf ended this game quickly.
Game Two: I keep a hand with swords and teeg and he keeps a fast natural order. With teeg in play he amasses an army of a perfect, two tokens and two other elf lords... I play and blow a EE for three and attack with the team to clear his board; he scoops the next turn.

Round Four(SDERock)
Game One: We trade some early disruption until wasteland/loam come online he is topping for mana sources while an untimely hymn empties his hand. A 13/13 terravore comes down to end the game very quickly.
Game Two: This game is similar to the first until I make my mistake of the day, which leads to this draw, with a knight in play I attacked with a huge terravore. For some reason I forgot bog existed and power cycled(no loams after siding) to ensure the vore would survive combat(I had the wasteland up for the maze). When he fetched the bog I face palmed and tried to salvage the game but he wound up top-shuffle-top for removal to seal the deal.
Game Three: This game was a beating with me drawing mass removal up the ass and trading 1-1 with deeds and explosives to run him out of gas. By the time I drew a threat to kill him, I had a tombstalker that was swords'd, the game was on turns and the vore could only do so much.

Round Five(G/W/u Mystic)
Game one:This game one went the way of so many game ones before it, with some wastelands being followed up by terravore and double tombstalker to seal the deal.
Game Two: In a role reversal my opponent plays turn one zenith for zero, turn two knight, turn three knight-fetch wasteland-wasteland me. Attack for 10......gg?
Game Three: I have answers for my opponents threats and he is color screwed, slightly wasteland induced, with a game breaking sower of temptation in hand.

Round Six(Elves...again)
Apparently elves believe in Karma because I got blown out these two games.
Game one: Turn 3 progenitus.
Game Two: Mulligan to five and I got the pleasure of watching my opponent draw a bunch of cards and play a bunch of elves...guess it wasn't meant to be.

All in all I had a great time and considering my lack of sleep and lack of competitive magic in the last three years I couldn't have been prouder of my performance. The store was great though i did feel for the 13 or so people that couldn't play due to table space. Thank you to all of the great people I talked to, traded and got to play today.

sdematt: your decklist is defiantly spreading and was played by quite a few people today across the room. I believe the junk list that top 8'd was your list and I have no idea what the aggro loam deck was.

my sideboard: perish for sure needs to go in the board as I saw green creatures left and right.

stoneforge mystic: this card was also everywhere and might actually be the real deal. Between the batterskull interaction and just fetching swords/jittes and attacking, the card is a very large threat when it is on the board and almost demands respect.

Why Tombstalker over Knight of the Reliquary? With Knight, you can add the 4th Confidant without worrying about CMC or eating up your own graveyard. The new Sewer Nemesis from the EDH set is another option and comes down huge and keeps growing while throwing stuff in the 'yard.
Overall, nice list. Sounds like the Hymns were game-winners.

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Originally Posted by Greenpoe

Why Tombstalker over Knight of the Reliquary? With Knight, you can add the 4th Confidant without worrying about CMC or eating up your own graveyard. The new Sewer Nemesis from the EDH set is another option and comes down huge and keeps growing while throwing stuff in the 'yard.
Overall, nice list. Sounds like the Hymns were game-winners.

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That list looks really bad. Hymn's are kind of interesting, giving up Seismic and Crusher for Swords and Tombstalker doesn't seem like the business though. BB with RRR and needing lots of G kind of cuts out Hymn in Loam.

Not to mention the 3 Wastelands....

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Originally Posted by lavafrogg

Round Five(G/W/u Mystic)
Game one:This game one went the way of so many game ones before it, with some wastelands being followed up by terravore and double tombstalker to seal the deal.
Game Two: In a role reversal my opponent plays turn one zenith for zero, turn two knight, turn three knight-fetch wasteland-wasteland me. Attack for 10......gg?
Game Three: I have answers for my opponents threats and he is color screwed, slightly wasteland induced, with a game breaking sower of temptation in hand.

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You played against me Anthony. Here's what I remember -

G1 - The turn after you cast terravore, I drew GSZ, but only had enough mana to pay X=2. Had I drawn another land (or perhaps didn't lose all of them to your wastes XD), I would have matched your Terravore with my own. I think you Hymn'd me knocking out one of my lands too, but I can't recall exactly.

G2 - BOSH. I had a very aggressive draw which curved perfectly. Hierarch, KotR, KotR, and when you fetched at the end of my turn, you gave me the opportunity to wasteland you out of the game.

G3 - Again, I was stuck at the 3 mana mark. My hand was full of bombs - I was able to cast the Elspeth out first before you had a threat. Then you cast Tarmogoyf and wasted me back to 3 mana on the same turn, and I failed to draw land to cast Sower of Temptation and Batterskull. It was close!

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Originally Posted by lavafrogg

Game Two: I keep a hand with swords and teeg and he keeps a fast natural order. With teeg in play he amasses an army of a perfect, two tokens and two other elf lords... I play and blow a EE for three and attack with the team to clear his board; he scoops the next turn.

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Uhm.. did I miss something?

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Originally Posted by lorddotm

That list looks really bad. Hymn's are kind of interesting, giving up Seismic and Crusher for Swords and Tombstalker doesn't seem likethe business though. BB with RRR and needing lots of G kind of cuts out Hymn in Loam.

Not to mention the 3 Wastelands....

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I think its possilbe to play GWB, theres a guy at my local store who is quite successful with it. But you're right, 4 Wastelands is a must and Knight is so much better in Loam that Stalker.

Btw: I had some minor success in the pre MM Meta with the list i posted before going 4-2 twice in ~40 players tourneys (the only ones i played for a while). I won against Dreadstill, UBg Landstill, Infect Stompy, ThopterCT, Affinity, Maverick, TA & Zenith Bant, I lost to UW Landstill, Goblins (due to a abyssal misplay), Elves (yeah...) and TES.

if you go junk, I think you have to give a nod to SFM. dude is insane. I'm tempted to try Naya Loam with him, since I have a hard time believing that an aggressive loam strategy can be good without Seismic assault.

Ahhh, I read my note grind I guess....34 hours of no sleep does that to you I guess. Change explosives to swords to still clear his board.


Ruckus- you are amazing and I am sorry that I knocked you out of contention only to be curb stomped by elves.

I am think I am switching tombstalker to mystic and squeezing in the equipment package. I am not completely sold on knight yet and the 4th wasteland was for sure a mistake not to have.

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Originally Posted by lavafrogg

Ahhh, I read my note grind I guess....34 hours of no sleep does that to you I guess. Change explosives to swords to still clear his board.


Ruckus- you are amazing and I am sorry that I knocked you out of contention only to be curb stomped by elves.

I am think I am switching tombstalker to mystic and squeezing in the equipment package. I am not completely sold on knight yet and the 4th wasteland was for sure a mistake not to have.

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Don't forget the 4th Bob either, he's the best creature in Legacy.

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Originally Posted by lavafrogg

Round Four(SDERock)
Game One: We trade some early disruption until wasteland/loam come online he is topping for mana sources while an untimely hymn empties his hand. A 13/13 terravore comes down to end the game very quickly.
Game Two: This game is similar to the first until I make my mistake of the day, which leads to this draw, with a knight in play I attacked with a huge terravore. For some reason I forgot bog existed and power cycled(no loams after siding) to ensure the vore would survive combat(I had the wasteland up for the maze). When he fetched the bog I face palmed and tried to salvage the game but he wound up top-shuffle-top for removal to seal the deal.
Game Three: This game was a beating with me drawing mass removal up the ass and trading 1-1 with deeds and explosives to run him out of gas. By the time I drew a threat to kill him, I had a tombstalker that was swords'd, the game was on turns and the vore could only do so much.

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I was watching that game, tough luck when you had lethal with a Tombstalker and he fetched and topped in to a Go for the Throat, then you had a Terravore to kill him in the timed rounds but he topped in to a Maze of Ith.

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Originally Posted by lorddotm

Don't forget the 4th Bob either, he's the best creature in Legacy.

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I thought that was Stoneforge Mystic, a tutor and vial wrapped up in one.

Ok, deck changes after the mix tourney:
+1 terravore
+1 bob
+1 wasteland
+3 stoneforge mystic
+1 jitte/batterskull/sofi
-1 savanah
-1 cycle land
-3 tombstalker
-3 engineered explosives
-1 fetchland

And I also fixed the colors of my fetchlands...

In light testing the deck seems alot better with early mystic being alot stronger than expected... Against decks with removal I went for jitte and equipped it to a tarmo after they killed the mystic. The extra terravore helps in the "combo" kill of the deck with mass dredging... I am alot happier with the fact that I will never take 8 from bob again but I will miss Formosa crypting myself to play a beater.

I really want to get the fourth loam in the list and I'm sad I no longer run the full 8 cycle lands:/. The explosives were removed due to jitte and sword doubling as removal and not wanting to kill my own shit anymore.


@ pander tough luck for sure but if I didn't forget bog existed than I would have won earlier:/ I need to play more than once every couple years in person I guess

I would play junk like this:

4 Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Cabal Pit
1 Canopy
1 Stronghold
4 Waseland
6 Cycling
4 Mox

4 SFM
4 Bob
4 KotR
1 Terravore
1 Batterer
1 Light & Shadow, Feast and Famine or Lightning Greaves (mainly, you want equips that can protect KoTR/Bob from removal)

4 Swords

2 Deed

4 Vindicate
4 Loam

something like that. I don't think discard is very good with an aggro loam type shell because the commitment to 35 cards to the loam engine means you cant run a real density of discard to screw your opponent's hand consistently.

double post.

Switch the pulses to Deeds.

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Originally Posted by keys

Switch the pulses to Deeds.

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And blow up your Moxen?

IMO, you can run all 4 colors to get the best of everything:

Dark Confidant
Knight of the Reliquary
Punishing Fire
Seismic Assault

Along with that, the lands to make it work:
Rift Portal
Volrath's Stronghold
Grove of the Burnwillows

I would start with that shell and work out. The mana is there for it.

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Originally Posted by CorpT

And blow up your Moxen?

IMO, you can run all 4 colors to get the best of everything:

Dark Confidant
Knight of the Reliquary
Punishing Fire
Seismic Assault

Along with that, the lands to make it work:
Rift Portal
Volrath's Stronghold
Grove of the Burnwillows

I would start with that shell and work out. The mana is there for it.

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Yeah, it's possible. I tried and I'm quite happy with my list. The only thing which is problematic to cast is the Assault. I'm also not sure about the Portal, when you got Loam goin you usually have all colors you need, when not, the Portal is (nearly) useless and just colorscrews you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CorpT

And blow up your Moxen?

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If that is the sum total of your analysis on Deed, then you need to play both the card and the deck more. Despite its drawbacks and the potential for friendly fire, Deed is downright insane against a lot the more popular match-ups in the format right now.

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IMO, you can run all 4 colors to get the best of everything:

Dark Confidant
Knight of the Reliquary
Punishing Fire
Seismic Assault

Along with that, the lands to make it work:
Rift Portal
Volrath's Stronghold
Grove of the Burnwillows

I would start with that shell and work out. The mana is there for it.

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Punishing Fires is not nearly as good as Grim Lavamancer. Hell, I think you'd have a hard time convincing me that KotR is better than Grim Lavamancer. Dude is insane. I've won tons of games with just bob beats and lavamancer shocks its ridiculous. Lavamancer fills a unique roll within the deck, whereas KotR is distinguished by being not quite as good as Countryside Crusher. Stick to three colors, IMO. You don't gain that much from the fourth. STP is nice, but EE, Deed/Pulse and/or Edicts already do the same thing against big guys and Bolt is just straight better against little dudes.

If you really want to experiment with white, then try cutting black for it and abusing SFM. Don't just tack it on, because you're bound to have some color problems if you do.