[B&R] Mystical Tutor banned / Illusionary Mask and Grim Monolith unbanned

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Originally Posted by Aleksandr

Death of Extended makes me a bit scared. (Btw, that format never rotated in the same way and I know a guy who quit non-highlander Constructed yesterday.) So, what will come the next time? They screwed Extended in a blink of an eye. Three months later they can destroy Legacy (which in fact would make a sense, as long as they plan that Overextended). So what?

"Effectivelly since September the 1st, following sets are banned from the Legacy format: Arabian Nights, Antiquities, Legends, The Dark, Fallen Empires, Homelands and all basic sets prior to 4th Edition. Cards from the three "learning" sets - Portal, Portal II and Portal: The Three Kingdoms - are no longer legal, unless they were printed in some of the legal sets. Kthxbye."

It's not about Mystical Tutor. It's about Extended.

And yeah, I just noticed that I can play my MTs once more. Awesome, because yesterday I went horiibly - bye, loss, loss, opponent missing. So this really wasn't a tournament I loved.

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I have a feeling that THIS will actually happen.

Their reasoning: Because Legacy pulled players away from Vintage or the price of Legacy was too much.

Yes, for this one, WotC will care about the price of Legacy because they are not getting anything from single card sales. After all, a lot of their expensive online Legacy cards are outside those mentioned sets (Force of Will and LED)

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Originally Posted by Tanarin

I have been wondering about Enlightened tutor as well. But I don't think it is anywhere near as bad as Mystical. If E. Tutor was to be banned I would think it would have been long ago when Affinity just hit the scene. Yes it pulls up the enchant/artifact you need, but it also helps keep COmbo in check, something that we know Wizards LOVES to do.

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I cant even imagine why they will give E-Tutor the banhammer. Maybe because it enabled Painter-Stone and Thopter combo? After all, combo is combo.

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Originally Posted by (nameless one)

I cant even imagine why they will give E-Tutor the banhammer. Maybe because it enabled Painter-Stone and Thopter combo? After all, combo is combo.

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Because it's an instant-speed, one-mana tutor? I don't think it's quite as strong as Mystical, but it's very, very good and will only continue to get better as new sets are printed.

It probably isn't quite time for E. Tutor to go just yet, but I think we'll see that day sometime in the next few years.

Edit: @ Everyone saying Legacy is going to get the chop - I don't think it will. We will probably see a new format between Legacy and Extended, but people will still want to play with dual lands and FoW, and as long as that is the case Legacy will never die. Even in the worst-case scenario, we might see a drop-off in attendance to about the same levels we had in 2007-2008, but it will never be as dead as Vintage simply due to the sheer volume of cards still available (which is still quite a lot despite the artificially inflated prices of the current market).

Wizards won't touch Legacy. But they effectively implemented the policies to diminish it.

Their revised reprint policy ensures that Duals will never be printed again, and the entry fee for legacy will continue to sky rocket.

They will introduce a new format to fill the gap left by their destruction of Extended. MM+, no set rotation at all, makes sense.

And if they do that, the entry fee for that format will be much lower than legacy, and I expect many legacy players may drift over to that format.

I also expect that format to see a lot more support from card shops since most card shops have MM+ staples, but few have legacy staples and duals left.

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Mystical Tutor is blue, which is by far the most powerful color in the game. Plus it enabled storm combo decks and combo decks in general. It helps two of the very best and most hated decks in the format.

Enlightened Tutor enables what... Quinn. It's not exactly being abused. It fits white decks well, and white is a color that Wizards loves and is actively trying to get played more often.

So yes, while on the surface, banning all 1cc tutors makes sense, it's not the same situation. I don't think they will ban Enlightened Tutor.

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Originally Posted by Jak.

(prior mindless babbling from the Communist @ Top 8 numbers...) You're only looking at one side of this. Storm combo and to a much lesser extent Reanimator held back non blue decks to where it was basically only blue decks, combo and Reanimator, and then Zoo because it preyed on the blue decks. Now, hopefully some decks with slower disruption can compete.

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Well said, sir, and thank you for the making the point that far too many people are apparently too dense (or selfish) to admit. Control, not Counter-Top aggro control, has been rather brutally squeezed out of the metagme - leading to the the above-mentioned situation. You know the only thing more depressing to losing to masturbatory combo (repeatedly)? Having to play Counter-Top & Zoo the rest of the day... Counter-Top remains a horrible thing to do a supposedly enjoyable activity...but with the combo enablers/environment which had been created, retaining the CT was a necessity. Perhaps now, after 3 months of new results & observation, CT can be nerfed and true harmony re-achieved (or as close as a dynamic format like Legacy can achieve before something else warps it...).

I also don't think the new Extended is designed as an intentional snipe to actively take Legacy players (unlike OverExtended if they implement that...) but an alternative to a format that is rapidly acquiring a daunting entry barrier. Quite frankly, suddenly shutting out players with preferences/collections/decks older than 3-4 years now leaves them few other options for play than Legacy (and none that are regularly sanctioned). This could end up being very good for the player levels of the format, especially since we know that Legacy is a better format than Extended (any version, any time) :cool:

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Originally Posted by Jon Stewart

Enlightened Tutor enables what... Quinn. It's not exactly being abused. It fits white decks well, and white is a color that Wizards loves and is actively trying to get played more often.

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I would say that it is a crutch for some decks like DnT and UW Tempo that can't fight control adequately without it.

At first glance its not a format altering card, but it really does improve some problematic matchups for a few decks, which alters the metagame.

I agree though. Its unlikely to be banned.

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

I would say that it is a crutch for some decks like DnT and UW Tempo that can't fight control adequately without it.

At first glance its not a format altering card, but it really does improve some problematic matchups for a few decks, which alters the metagame.

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And Tarmogoyf alters the metagame by invalidating slower strategies. So?

Enlightened Tutor is more likely to get banned because it's a non-creature spell.

I think the new Extended changes make a new format inevitable. I don't know if it will be the Masques+ Eternal format everyone wants, but that seems like reasonable speculation. A format like that would definitely draw Legacy players.

As far as the Mystical change is concerned, I like it. Wizards made an effort to balance the non-islands against islands in Standard/Extended, and I think that is finally trickling down to Legacy. Zoo is really the only consistently good deck that doesn't run islands. If Wizards is trying to change that, I approve.

I hereby petition that Extended be renamed to Type 2.5.

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Originally Posted by Conelead

Wizards made an effort to balance the non-islands against islands in Standard/Extended, and I think that is finally trickling down to Legacy. Zoo is really the only consistently good deck that doesn't run islands. If Wizards is trying to change that, I approve.

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In principle, that's a good idea. After all, formats should be balanced, and all five colors should participate equally.

In practice, though, in the early days of Magic, Blue played a very major role, and Legacy is an eternal format that goes back to the earliest sets. To try, by banning cards, to make it behave like the current Standard is, I would think, a difficult task that would involve banning a lot of cards and doing major surgery to the format. I don't think that most Legacy players would appreciate this, or find the result to be an improvement.

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Originally Posted by Jon Stewart

I'm both upset that Wizards basically said they care more about Extended than Legacy and also think it's laughable that Wizards thinks they can make Extended MORE popular by having it have FEWER sets. I don't understand their reasoning.

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Perhaps someone answered this (don't feel like reading through like 6 pages to find out), but it makes perfect sense to me. There are many players locally who started playing around Lorwyn who still have all of those cards, but no real use for them (outside of EDH). With the new Extended, these cards not only become playable, they're actually going to be relevant.

Basically, it's all about retention. Players who began during Lorwyn or after (or any set, going forward) are more likely to continue playing if the cards they loved are still viable in a non-Standard format without significant purchases from previous sets.

Honestly, I think it's a huge positive for Extended. The format as it is right now is horrific, and after Chalice of the Void rotated out was only going to be worse.

I also think that Legacy is on borrowed time, because this almost certainly confirms the "Overextended" format, and support from WotC will almost certainly swing towards that format in lieu of Legacy, because regardless of the stability of Legacy (whether true or not), the bubble has to burst eventually. Legacy as a format cannot be used for anything beyond a Grand Prix or a portion of Worlds due to card availability and prices, and eventually people who do not already have the cards will be priced out of the format. This is due to the Reserved List, nothing more. It simply means that Legacy will stop growing after a certain point due to the aforementioned availability and pricing, and nothing can really be done about it.

If anything, I would be much more concerned with that than the arbitrary banning/unbanning of 3 cards.

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Originally Posted by wcm8

Mystical Tutor was a broken card, I don't think there's any doubt about it. Vampiric Tutor was banned long ago, and in some situations Mystical is better than Vampiric due to its color and no life loss.

Enlightened Tutor is probably on their watch list. A 1cc instant speed card that pulls up exactly what you need seems a bit strong for Legacy.

I think a balanced solution to this cycle of cards would be to make them sorceries instead of instants.

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Most of the power behind Vampiric Tutor came from the fact that it was able to get anything for such a low cost at instant speed. Sure in some situations mystical tutor is better than vampiric tutor based on life-constraints or color access, but just because in some situations it is better than vampiric tutor doesn't in itself mean that mystical tutor is broken, more powerful, or even remotely playable. Let's look at some other comparisons. There are situations wherein Grizzly Bears in better than Tarmogoyf. There are situations wherein Time Warp is better than Time Walk. Heck, there are situations wherein divination (or even counsel of the soratami :D) is better than ancestral recall.

The point is that just because a mystical tutor, while I think we can agree that it is powerful, is better than a card that most of us would consider ban-worthy in some situations, does not make it ban-worthy solely on those merits.

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Originally Posted by TheAardvark

I also think that Legacy is on borrowed time, because this almost certainly confirms the "Overextended" format, and support from WotC will almost certainly swing towards that format in lieu of Legacy, because regardless of the stability of Legacy (whether true or not), the bubble has to burst eventually. Legacy as a format cannot be used for anything beyond a Grand Prix or a portion of Worlds due to card availability and prices, and eventually people who do not already have the cards will be priced out of the format. This is due to the Reserved List, nothing more. It simply means that Legacy will stop growing after a certain point due to the aforementioned availability and pricing, and nothing can really be done about it.

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I've done a lot of thinking on this over the last few months, and I've come to the conclusion that I just don't give a shit anymore.

I mean, we've got great events on a local level in many areas. We've got independent companies who hold the large events that WotC won't give us, and even if there comes a new Eternal format, dealers still need to move their Legacy stock, so they will probably continue to hold events. What more can you really ask for? It's not like we've ever had PTQ support for Legacy, and that's never going to change. I could really care less how much WotC supports Legacy as long as it continues being a sanctioned format, they continue to throw us a few bones in newer sets, and maybe give us the occasional GP, and for that I couldn't really care less one way or the other.

TL;DR - Don't rely on WotC to make the format successful. We're doing a pretty good job of that ourselves.

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Originally Posted by DFY889

Most of the power behind Vampiric Tutor came from the fact that it was able to get anything for such a low cost at instant speed. Sure in some situations mystical tutor is better than vampiric tutor based on life-constraints or color access, but just because in some situations it is better than vampiric tutor doesn't in itself mean that mystical tutor is broken, more powerful, or even remotely playable. Let's look at some other comparisons. There are situations wherein Grizzly Bears in better than Tarmogoyf. There are situations wherein Time Warp is better than Time Walk. Heck, there are situations wherein divination (or even counsel of the soratami :D) is better than ancestral recall.

The point is that just because a mystical tutor, while I think we can agree that it is powerful, is better than a card that most of us would consider ban-worthy in some situations, does not make it ban-worthy solely on those merits.

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...Did you even read what you just typed?

I'd totally play Soratami over Recall to get around counterbalance.

If I ever need to get around Counterbalance I'll just play a bunch of Little Girls.

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Originally Posted by jrsthethird

If I ever need to get around Counterbalance I'll just play a bunch of Little Girls.

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Oh you don't need to bother with something that intense. Just get up on the table, shit all over your opponent's cards, and then stare at him patiently until he concedes.

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I've done a lot of thinking on this over the last few months, and I've come to the conclusion that I just don't give a shit anymore.

I mean, we've got great events on a local level in many areas. We've got independent companies who hold the large events that WotC won't give us, and even if there comes a new Eternal format, dealers still need to move their Legacy stock, so they will probably continue to hold events.

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This is how I feel 100% I live in Seattle and we have at least 1-2 20/30 man legacy tournaments a month with great prizes. Played today first was 4 FOW/4 wasteland

I don't care what they do with standard/extended I will not buy packs till they print shit I want to buy. Either new stuff or reprint the cards people actually want to play with.

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Originally Posted by SlopeeJ

This is how I feel 100% I live in Seattle and we have at least 1-2 20/30 man legacy tournaments a month with great prizes. Played today first was 4 FOW/4 wasteland

I don't care what they do with standard/extended I will not buy packs till they print shit I want to buy. Either new stuff or reprint the cards people actually want to play with.

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Must be nice to live someplace with a thriving local Legacy scene. I sure wish I lived someplace like that, not someplace where a half-dozen people in an entire city play the format regularly. Tell me, what's it like to live someplace where people had heard of the format before SCG started its 5K series? Is it like paradise? Do beautiful, half-naked women answer your judge calls? Do they serve cocktails in between rounds?

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Originally Posted by majikal

TL;DR - Don't rely on WotC to make the format successful. We're doing a pretty good job of that ourselves.

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Sure, until everyone but the people who already have the cards are priced out of it. That was my primary point. And all the success in the world won't matter if the format stops growing player-wise, which is a very likely scenario due to card availability/prices.

Sure, it's not going to happen tomorrow, or even 6 months from now. But perhaps a year from now, maybe a little longer, I think you'll start seeing the effects of all of these factors on the format.

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Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies

Is it like paradise? Do beautiful, half-naked women answer your judge calls? Do they serve cocktails in between rounds?

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Unfortunately, you have to die to get to heaven.

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Originally Posted by Jon Stewart

Wizards won't touch Legacy. But they effectively implemented the policies to diminish it.

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This is going to sound a lot like a conspiracy theory, but this is what I am thinking

I am worried that while they wont necessarily kill Legacy, the banning of mystical tutor sends wake up calls to people who have invested a lot of their money in Legacy cards. I may be wrong, but I thought it was a general trend that Wizards was making Legacy more open with the unbanning of cards, and trying not to ban cards that weren't seriously warping the format. Now that they have started banning cards, I have serious concerns that they are testing the waters to see how players would react to a banning. This, of course, leads to concerns to values of collections, as bannings make cards lose value overnight and unbannings make soon-to-be-obsolete cards lose value over months.

If they do begin "overextended" and support it with PT seasons and stuff, I believe that Legacy will turn into vintage. With the exception of a couple of old guys like us playing occasionally at LGS, Legacy will be Vintage-ized. I DO NOT think overextended is imminent and supporting overextended, which would make Wizards less money than rotating formats, with PT's seems desperate for Wizards. However, if next year Legacy still draws huge crowds, and the new Extended falls flat, who is to say Wizards wont kick and scream and try another cash grab like overextended? Its better to have people play overextended than Legacy right?

I believe we have 6 months to gauge the future of legacy. This correlates with the SCG invitational series, because, after all, if there is real money backing tournaments, the format wont die. If they announce that they do not plan on doing Legacy next year, then it will signify the end of serious Legacy, especially if an overextended format has been announced.

Unless of course they change legacy into "overextended legacy," in which case we have absolutely no warning when our card's values will tank. This is doubtful, but they showed they were willing to betray the extended community.

*offtopic* I am soo happy that my friend's trip to Asia was not before this announcement, because I had given him instructions to purchase a pimped out ANT deck.