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Well, to kill 3-toughness creatures, as Firespout, 3RR seems kinda steep, besides, getting double R could be tricky. If you're looking for an instant option, I think Volcanic Fallout would be better, cheaper and can't be countered, could be used against Thopter decks to buy time and draw a bounce spell, or Faerie Stompy decks if you manage to get to 1RR.
Hey guys thought I'd post a tourney report here for anyone thats interested. Monthly Legacy, 16 people, 5 rounds and a cut to Top 4; I finished 1st. List follows:
4 Emrakul
4 Progenitus
1 V Clique
4 Show and Tell
4 Sneak Attack
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Fow
3 Daze
3 Pierce
2 Intuition
4 Lotus Petal
2 City of Traitors
2 Ancient Tomb
4 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
SB:
3 Firespout
3 Propaganda
3 Divert
3 Shattering Spree
2 Echoing Truth
1 Massacre Wurm
R1 - Mythic Conscription brew (2-1):
G1: Take some early beats while I have Sneak Attack and hit for 10 with Progenitus. Opponent casts Sovereigns of Lost Alara which would have won him the game that turn. I have FoW, unfortunately the only blue spell in hand is another Progenitus. He has lethal on board for next turn regardless. I have to rip a creature off the top.. and slam Emrakul.
<+3 Firespout -2 Intuition -1 Vendilion Clique>
G2: Turn 3 I SNT into Progenitus. Unfortunately he drew his only copy of Eldrazi Conscription and put it on a now angry Lotus Cobra. He attacks and I sacrifice two lands, blocking with Prog. I can attack for 10 next turn but upon his next attack I have to sac Prog, so we go to Game 3.
G3: I force a T2 Pridemage and play T3 Sneak into T4 Emrakul ftw.
R2 - Mono U Merfolk (2-1):
G1: Opponent mulls to 5 and I get Sneak Attack->Emrakul going in short order.
<+3 Firespout +2 Shattering Spree -2 Intuition -1 Vendilion Clique -2 ??>
G2: Kept a decent hand with SNT/Sneak Attack but fail to find a creature and get beat down pretty quickly. I cast a Shattering Spree on his Vial; I brought it in in case he had Pithing Needle. After this game I didn't see a Needle and sided it back out again.
G3: I get a T2 SNT->Progenitus, he Forces but I have a Daze for it.
R3 - GBW Junk/Rock (1-2):
G1: Opponent recently won a PTQ so I know I'm in for a tough match. I deflect early hand disruption (seize + hymn) with Pierce and Daze, however a Rishadan Port is keeping me from going off. A KotR gets a second Port, and I get beat downin short order.
<+3 Divert -3 Sneak Attack: I wasn't sure how to side here, but I figured he had Pridemage and would bring in Krosan Grip or Pithing Needle and didn't want dead cards>
G2: Got an early SNT->Prog/Emrakul and went to game 3.
G3: He played an early Bob. I had a Force but wasn't sure if he was baiting for something harsher like Hymn. I let it resolve which was possibly a mistake. I had a Firespout anyways so I figure I could remove it. Unfortunately my lands get Wasted and I can never cast it. Finally get my mana back online and find a Prog but its too late and die to Goyfs. Blood Moon would have been huge here every land he had was non-basic and it could have turned off Waste/Port. Unfortunately I decided pre-tourney not to run it.
R4 - GB False Cure (1-2):
G1: I keep a hand with 2 Sneak, Ponder and a Brainstorm. He gets two early Bobs online and starts beating me down. I slowly get beat down but he is taking massive damage from the Confidants. I never find a creature but have a slim to chance to win: he needs to survive two Confidant activations with 4 life. Unforunately he only takes 2, and I lose.
<can't remember what I sided in here - I believe it was +2 Echoing Truth -2 Intuition, as I wanted to be able to bounce a large Kavu Predator>
G2: I get an early Sneak Attack however he casts a Nature's Claim and I have no protection. Sad times.
At this point we are told you probably need to be 4-1 to make Top 4, however a 3-2 might have a chance. My opponent is 3-1 and asks me to ID/scoop him in. I came to play and the matchup seemed good so we shuffle up.
R5 - Zoo (2-1):
G1: I get a T4 Sneak Attack and activate with Emrakul ftw.
<+3 Firespout -3 Spell Pierce>
G2: I get a T3 Show and Tell, with 3 creatures in hand to choose from: Emrakul, Progenitus, Massacure Wurm. I was greedy and went with Emrakul, when Progenitus would have got there. He dropped a KotR. Next turn he used it to fetch a copy of Karakas, bouncing Emrakul. I died shoon after, regretting a lost chance...
G3: He drops an early Karakas, I get a Sneak Attack into play. I had two Emrakul in hand but was waiting for a Progenitus to avoid Karakas bounce. Couple of turns later I realised I could play Emrakul; if he bounced pre-combat I could replay it, if he bounced post-attack then he still had to sacrifice 6. Bit of a noob mistake but it didn't prove costly as I get in there with both an Emrakul + Progenitus.
With a bunch of people on 3-2, somehow I'm the lucky one to go through on breakers to Top 4. Top 4 consisted of myself, BUG Prog, Rock & Merfolk.
Semi final - BUG Progenitus? (2-1):
Opponent has a great rating and I haven't beaten him before in a tournament (great guy too). These games were EPIC and very memorable. Wasn't sure his exact deck, was NO with a black/blue disruption shell, GSZ + NO etc.
G1: We trade spells but eventually I land a SNT-> Progenitus. His only out is to rip a Natural Order off the top to reset the board: and he gets it! I die to Goyf shortly after.
<+3 Divert -2 Intuition -1 Vendilion Clique>
G2: He Thoughtseizes me but I have my tech: Divert! He takes his own Force of Will, but I note he has a Diabolic Edict. I have SNT/Emrakul in hand but will have to play around his answer. Turn 2 he Hymns me but again - but I have a second Divert! 3-for-1 is certainly living the dream. He has one mana open after a Natural Order for Progenitus. I Show and Tell an Emrakul into into play. He plays Edict but Divert has him sac a Noble. He scoops.
G3: I take early beats, get a Sneak Attack and he gets a NO->Prog which will be lethal next turn. I have to rip Prog/Emrakul to have a chance. I windmill slam... a Ponder. I check the top 3, 3rd card being an Emrakul. I power it into play ftw.
Merfolk beat Rock so we're headed for a rematch of Round 2.
Final - Mono U Merfolk (2-1):
1st place is worth $60 with 2nd being $40. This is the same opponent as Round 2. I offer a prize split so we can both take $50; he agrees and we play it out for glory.
G1: He again mulls to 5 (I was cutting decks like a ninja all day). I get a Turn 4 Sneak Attack with Emrakul and we go to G2.
<+3 Firespout -2 Intuition -1 Vendilion Clique>
G2: I played a little slowly here, probably getting nervous. I had SNT, Sneak and Emrakul in hand. I was afraid that if I SNT'd and he had Sower of Temptation, I'd have no outs. I spend a few turns trying to find Progenitus meanwhile he gets some creatures going. I eventually cast Sneak but he counters it. I cast SNT next turn but its too late and I die.
G3: He gets early double Cursecatcher and a Lord but I have Firespout (only kills 2 Curse as he sacs them to counter). Next turn I Firespout again to get the Lord. I cast SNT->Emrakul which pops a Standstill - he draws a Spell Pierce but I have a FoW and thats GG. I'm super amped about winning and spend most of the money on a huge order of Indian take away.
Just wanted to say cheers those guys on here that replied earlier about my sideboard. I should have heeded the advice for Blood Moon as a number of opponents had 1-2 basic lands *total* in their decks. I didn't really use the Propaganda or Shattering Spree, but didn't come across Dredge/Goblins/Affinity (no-one played them today actually). Firespout was the bomb as was Divert. I never cast the misers Massacre Wurm so the jurys out on that - didn't need it on the day anyway. MD was fine, I never saw V Clique but its usually solid.
Next time I'd probably rock the following SB:
3 Firespout
3 Blood Moon
3 Divert
2 Echoing Truth
2 Shattering Spree
2 Propaganda
Why play both Propaganda and Firespout? I mean, don't they do the same thing in principle? Only difference I can think is that Propaganda works on beefier creatures, but Firespout gets to kill Gaddocks and Qasalis...
It may be a little overkill but we have an aggro heavy meta - particularly with Dredge popping up lately. In testing Propaganda was great against both Dredge and Goblins, since they have so many haste creatures that Firespout simply doesn't stop.
I was thinking of putting this deck together and i would like some advice as to how to design it properly. Im currently looking at the multi color version running Enlightened Tutor but im not really sure which way i should go.
I never really played with the white splash, but be sure to play both Blightsteel Colossus (for the Sneak Attack - in multiples) and the Akroma Sphinx (for the Show and Tell- just one would do, I think) to tutor for.
On what to cut, since you're playing tutors, you can probably cut the Intuitions and some Dazes for the tutors. Also, one problem I faced when I was considering splashing, is that 3 colors make it harder to run your back up plan. If you're going for an early Show and Tell, and get a Volcanic Island with a fetch, you're denying yourself the mana to tutor. If you get a Tundra, you'll be short of red mana for the Sneak Attack if the SnT doesn't get there. And if you get a Plateau, you can't really do anything with it, like playing cantrips and Spell Pierces.
Also, I expect that Enlightened Tutor makes Sneak Attack much better, so you could probably fit some Simian Spirit Guides or Seething Songs to capitalize on that plan.
Looking forward to see a list if you put one together...
CREATURES (8)
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Progenitus
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
ENCHANTMENTS (4)
4 Sneak Attack
SORCERIES (6)
2 Ponder
4 Show and Tell
INSTANTS (19)
4 Brainstorm
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Daze
1 Echoing Truth
4 Intuition
4 Force of Will
ARTIFACTS (2)
2 Lotus Petal
LANDS (21)
3 Island
1 Mountain
4 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
SIDEBOARD
3 Meddling Mage
2 Spell Pierce
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroclasm
1 Pithing Needle
3 Blood Moon
This is the current list i have been thinking about :)
You can cut an Intuition and the maindeck Echoing Truth for an extra 2 Ponders. I think I suggested the same when I t8'd with that version last November. In hindsight they seem like intuitive cuts. You only ever really want to see 1 Intuition in an average length game, since tutoring for 2U is slow as hell and that's about the time you want to be casting your first SnT against most decks. E. Truth is a maindeck out to sideboard cards and more often than not is either dead in hand or FoW bait.
I also changed the maindeck's Pyro/REB to Spell Pierces, but that's personal preference. Yes, the red cards are stronger against your worst popular matchups (Thresh garbage, Merfolk) but they also require early red mana which is difficult because you're usually fetching a basic first and you really want it to be blue so you can start cantripping to assemble the combo. It's also an out to Aether Vial on the play, which tends to be a significantly better target to counter early on. The taxing effect vs. hard counter usually doesn't come into play since you like to wait for them to tap out anyway before you try to go off, or at least do it early enough that they just don't have 2 mana open.
Anyway, those are just some basic guidelines on cleaning it up. Feel free to PM me about my current UR(x) list/s for more in-depth stuff. I'm not going to post any of my current projects publicly because I'll be playing them (or something very close) in Boston and Providence, but can share a certain amount more over PM.
Well I guess now is as good a time as ever to get involved and throw up my version of the build. I've been testing it for the last 2-3 months quite extensively and I've finally settled on the build that I find most stable, consistent, and able to destroy on turn 2/3
4 Show and Tell
4 Sneak Attack
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Intuition
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Lotus Petal
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Progenitus
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Mountain
4 Spell Pierce
1 Woodfall Primus
SB: 2 Blood Moon
SB: 2 Firespout
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Echoing Truth
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Wipe Away
SB: 2 Propaganda
I kinda like it.. a lot
Question for discussion: Is Blightsteel Colossus worthwhile to play against NO/Bant decks? (say out of SB). Does it trump Progenitus? (Im asking - don't know the answer).
A couple of examples to get talk going (not exhaustive):
Colossus pro scenario:
You SNT Colossus, they put in a Goyf. On their turn, they NO (sac a Dryad) for Prog. You're now in the box seat as you can bash (they block with Prog and it dies, or chump with Goyf, eat poison, bash you with Prog, and you swing again ftw).
Colossus con scenario:
They already have a Prog in play, you SNT a Colossus. Assuming they have 2-toughness of non-Prog creatures, they can attack first, chump you and win.
Prog pro scenario:
They only have a Prog, and you can reset by putting into play your Prog.
Prog con scenario:
You board reset them but they still bash you with Goyf(s). Or they board reset you and do the same.
Another thing to complicate things re: Colossus, is that you could catch them off guard with both Sneak Attacking Colossus, or bouncing their (non Dryad) chump blockers with Echoing Truth. On the flip side, they can exile Colossus.
Another question for discussion:
What would your meta have to look like for you to include Form of the Dragon (main or SB). Why doesn't this card get love anymore and should it?
I tested with Blightsteel and felt that it was simply just a reason for my opponent to keep the StP/Paths in their hand. It comes down, it eats removal, I keep on playing. Sure it's always fun to drop it t2 against another combo player and swing for the game but even a bounce spell has it sitting back in your hand - I'd much prefer it to be a prog/Emrakul any day.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSleeper
Against NoBant, You've got 8 cantrips to make that Blightsteel you're sneaking in an Emrakul instead - swinging with one of those... Shuts a progen up. Hell, even dropping in a progen to pop em both off the field can swing a game in your favor - Letting them resolve a Natural Order into Progen is sometimes not worth starting a counter war over if you're holding the combo pieces in your hand with your own 40 headed monster + another beast.
Regarding Form of the Dragon - the card simply can't make the cut. It can't be snuck in, only shown, and I don't want to develop my combo plays around a 4 of card over what essentially becomes an 8 of (only being able to sneak it in over sneaking OR showing it in).
My main concern is toying between the MD Clique vs. a MD Woodfall Primus (which essentially becomes a wasteland in most matchups). The primus can really come in hand sometimes (any moat effects, etc) but the clique.. well.. I can cast it without needing a combo piece to put it in - seems good.
Except on those games where you Sneak in a Progenitus, swings for 10, the guy doesn't die and then wins the game. The Colossus forces your opponent to play around it (if he knows you have it in your deck) or punishes your opponent for tapping out.
I very much understand that, but with an open meta right now full of removal, aggro, and things to chump block I personally am happy with people *thinking* I might have a blightsteel in hand, rather than having one. Perhaps there is a way to throw 3 of them in the SB because as of right now, I can't justify putting 3 of them, even 2 of them in MD.Quote:
Originally Posted by rgripp
I completely understand that swinging for 10 doesn't always do the job, but neither does swinging for less than 10 poison.
Just my 2 cents.
@The Sleeper... Blightsteel is neat but that's pretty much it. There is to much removal out there for him. Sure, no one want to sneak a Prog into play (unless your sitting on two of them) but it's almost guaranteed at least 10 damage if you SnT him in. Then unless they are playing mass removal (which few are) or sac effects he's there to stay.
As for Form of the Dragon. Personally I love this card. I used to use 3 off the board I liked it so much. Stops dredge, stops elves, stops gobs, and (insert any random agro deck) The prob is that you are taking the risk of getting in 5 damage at you and you shut down your own creatures. Not to mention it also requires you to go SnT. Because agro and other creature based decks multiply so fast I've taken to running Novablast Wurm instead. Sneaking him in is best cuz you get a targeted Wrath of God and they take 7. I've gotten him in against agro and they ussually start beating their head against the wall or the smelly dude sitting next to them. Yes he can eat removal but after you show the opponent Emily and Progy game 1 they ussually side out removal. They never see Novablast comming. He's good as gold against non-white decks anyway.
Not a huge fan of Clique. I know he's good but his ability just doesn't hold a candle to Primus IMO. I've had a lot of games where sneaking him in is game over. They lose two key permenants and then you can block most of their threats away with your 5/5
So: Prog over Blightsteel
Primus over Clique
Novablast over Form
In regards to novablast over form are you talking about MD or simply SD tricks against people boarding out removal - I guess the real question is, do you have a list we can take a look at? I mean Emrakul already does what Novablast does but hits.. well.. everything.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Colonel
Hm, there's not too much removal for the Colossus out there. The only stuff that hits the Colossus but does not hit the other fatties is Swords and Path. Granted, there's a lot of people playing white for Swords, but there's also a lot of people playing Perish that would get a SnT Progenitus. Against non-white decks (like Team America, for instance), a Colossus is way more relevant than a Progenitus, which they can just ignore. At least with the Colossus, they have to leave a guy up for blocking and they just can't tap out.
Yeah sorry bout that... everytime I post I'm in a hurry and never get around to posting my deck:
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
2 Ancestral Knowledge
3 Intuition
4 Sneak Attack
4 Show and Tell
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Progenitus
3 Woodfall Primus
4 Lotus Petal
3 Volcanic Island
2 Mountain
3 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Ancient Tomb
On the SB I run
3 Blood Moon
3 Novablast Wurm
3 Energy Flux
3 Firespout
3 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
Now for my card choices except obvious things:
If you want to question Ancestral Knowledge just look back at my prior posts for its synrgy with Brainstorm. I don't always run it, depends on what I think the meta will be so I may put 3 Ponder in over it and drop the Intuition back to two, depends on how I feel that day. That's really the only surprising MD card. Now the SB: I like Moons over Magus... it's a personal choice about what I think is easier to get rid of. Novablast is on the SB because my Meta is clogged with aggro, so I run that and Firespout. If I can't find one then I'll find the other. The problem with relying only on Emily for aggro is that if you don't blast them with her by turn 3 or is your lucky turn 4 she only gets 6 perms. So they lose random Llanwar Elves or Matron. Blah... the Wurm completely and utterly whipes them out. And don't forget about Fish... you might be starring down a blue 4/4 army... Even spout can't deal with that. Wurm? They ussually pick up their cards and go home. Energy Flux is a big time meta call. LOTS of people enjoy abusing artifacts around me: MUD and Affinity. Decided I was tired of that. Last 80 man tourny I went to Flux won me two rounds outright. As for llawan, she's the ??? I will take her out if I don't think Fish will be everyware and put Echoing truth on the SB instead. Turns out I was right to play her last month since I ran into 2 fish deck... they scooped. When I don't run her Fish always give me such a hard time. Anyone know of a better card for llawans slot? Vials get around her but they're ussually to slow and I go off and kill them before they recover from llawan. But that will happen when your cheating fatties into play. Oddly enough the last tourny I played I lost to 12 post and Elves combo into Emily. Everytime I SnT they dropped her too and were able to go off faster again. Let me know what you think.
CREATURES (9)
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Progenitus
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Woodfall Primus
ENCHANTMENTS (4)
4 Sneak Attack
SORCERIES (8)
4 Ponder
4 Show and Tell
INSTANTS (17)
4 Brainstorm
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Spell Pierce
2 Daze
3 Intuition
4 Force of Will
ARTIFACTS (2)
2 Lotus Petal
LANDS (20)
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
SIDEBOARD
2 Blood Moon
2 Firespout
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Echoing Truth
2 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Wipe Away
3 Thoughtseize
This is my current list that i am testing right now =). I find that in the combo matchup i rather have Thoughtseize then soft counters like Daze. I run the Enlightened tutor package because i like the improvement of Sneak Attack it gives and it gives the option of having a tutorable creature target like Sphinx =).
@krogan: that list looks interesting, E.Tutor could be nice. I haven't tested that list, but from my own experience with UR I'm not sure I'd personally want to splash into a 3rd colour in a deck running 2-mana lands.
Has anyone seen the 'unofficial but complete' New Phyrexia spoiler? Just pondering over a few cards and whether they will impact the deck (either being tools for us or against us). Note when I say {ph-U} I mean 2 life or 1 blue mana.
Gitaxian Probe {ph-U}
Sorcery (C)
Look at target player's hand.
Draw a card
->This is kind of cool. Pay 1 life, draw a card, check their hand. That kind of knowledge would be great; enabling unprotected SNT plays or informing you to get more permission etc.
Mental Misstep {ph-U}
Instant (U)
Counter target spell with converted mana cost 1.
->Pay 1 life to counter a Spell Pierce/Cursecatcher/Thoughtseize/Duress/Noble Hierarch/Cabal Therapy/the list goes on? Intriguing!
Jin-Gitaxias 8UU
Legendary Creature - Praetor (M)
Flash
At the beginning of your end step, draw seven cards.
Each opponent's maximum hand size is reduced by seven.
5/4
->Probably a fringe creature for us, but drawing 7 cards is no small advantage.
Phyrexian Metamorph 3{ph-U}
Artifact Creature - Shapeshifter (R)
You may have Phyrexian Metamorph enter the battlefield as a copy of any artifact or creature on the battlefield, except it's an artifact in addition to its other types.
0/0
->I have already seen this guy being touted by other threads as an answer to Emrakul/Progenitus. Something we may run into.
Omen Machine 6
Artifact (R)
Players can't draw cards.
At the beginning of each player's draw step, that player exiles the top card of his or her library. If it's a land card, the player puts it onto the battlefield. Otherwise, the player casts it without paying its mana cost if able.
->No doubt some creative deck builders will try to break this, whether they succeed or not I don't know. Being able to cast Emrakul is nothing to sneeze at. Ancestral Knowledge into Omen Machine anyone? :)
Phyrexian mana is to pay 2 life or mana not 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSleeper
From all the cards that you mentioned above I think that Mental Misstep is an auto-include option for us.
It is so nice and it conters endless number of cards.
I think that it doesn't make sense to play daze in this deck anymore.