Think your pretty overreacting.
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Think your pretty overreacting.
Overreacting? You mean someone quoted an out if context statment I made in another thread, which was clearly written with sarcasm, and I'm not allowed to have fun with it? Where's your sense of humor?
P.S. if you thought I was being serious, and English isn't your first language, I apologize.
Having seen a bunch of similar yet different UW-Miracle-Top lists putting up results in the past weeks I think the focus here should be these questions:
- Counterbalance or no Counterbalance?
- SFM or no SFM?
- Eslpeth or more Entreat the Angels?
- Ponders or more business?
I think the threat suite is pretty important because it defines deck's direction. There is pretty much a consensus about the counter and removal suite but each list tries to push it with a different threat after the Terminus, SCM/Swords shenanigans. Cliques, SFM, Elspeth, Entreat the Angels, Shackles can all be valid options but what's the optimum configuration to support the current defensive shell?
to answer your questions :Quote:
Originally Posted by bilb_o
-Counterbalance or no Counterbalance?------- if you have SDT in your deck counterbalance is a must in my opinion ( you use counterbalance in this deck as a pseudo chalice of the void for 1 and 2 )
SFM or no SFM?------- no SFM. Why turn on your opponents removal and on top of that it'S a clunky and slow kill condition
- Eslpeth or more Entreat the Angels? --------- Entreat is the better kill condition ( don'T forget that you can make instant speed angles
- Ponders or more business?---- Ponder. it make's your deck more consistent, shuffles the top 3 cards of your library then they are ''do nothing cards'' works well with counterbalance and lets you dig for answers
Elspeth has its merits, and actually has a lot more synergy with Terminus (and postboard Humility) than Entreat, but Entreat is significantly more powerful. For the same cost as Elspeth, you get two 4/4 fliers. That's pretty crazy. It gets significantly stronger as the game progresses, too... making 4-5 4/4 fliers is nuts. The fact that the tokens have flying is so relevant in the metagame right now with all of the Delvers and Lingering Souls around.
As far as the other wincons are concerned, I'm curious why the deck would need additional wincons. What matchup(s) would SFM improve? Merfolk is no longer seeing play, which was the biggest reason for running it before. SFM is pretty lousy against RUG and Maverick without enough bodies to carry Jitte consistently. SFM also has horrible synergy with Terminus, with or without Batterskull. In fact, running creatures in general is bad with Terminus, but SCM is acceptable because it can act as additional Brainstorms to enable the Miracles in the first place, and its body often acts as removal via surprise blocking.
The same reason why I wouldn't run SFM applies to Clique. Why play an aggro/control version of the deck if you plan on casting one mana Wtath of Gods? When the deck was using Shackles before, the aggro/control plan was fine. With Terminius, it just seems like bad deckbuilding.
I can see postboard Cliques being good vs combo and the mirror, though.
Regarding Counterbalance, the card is still the best stack control spell in the format. It can completely shut down RUG, and can still provide incremental card advantage even against decks out of cc range (like Maverick and SNT). It improves bad matchups without hurting good matchups... and we already run 4 SDT.
I'm also not sure why the deck needs Ponder.
Without the Ponders, Cliques, SFM and Elspeth the deck becomes this:
22 Lands
4 FoW
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords
6-7 Counters (A combination of Pierce, Snare and counterspell)
3-4 Snapcaster Mage
3 terminus
2 Entreat the Angels
3 Jace, the Ming Sculptor
3 Top
3 Counterbalance
which is around 58 cards. This shell really needs something to bring to the table after clearing the board and push inevitability from that point on. 2 Entreat and 3 Jace isn't enough to be there right on time and I think that's why the deck needs more win conditions. Ponders can be used to find the existing wincons but we are already doing enough searching and I'm not sure if it's going to be what you need a turn after a Terminus wipe.
Edit: If our curve could provide a strong counter-top lock against the field just setting it-up, clearing the board and then searching for the killing blow could've been fine. But we can effectively lock the lower part of the mana curve and opponents can still cast other planeswalkers, Seat Attacks etc. after you clear the board and you go back to start.
got 2 Humility in my mail, gonna test your list hanni. ;-)
actually beating sneak and show seems to be huge in any tournament atm.
what is about those 2 oblivion ring, could you see removing one adding one spell pierce? I know these are your only 3cc spells, but how often did you need them for cb or find them when you need them?
Do you ever miss wasteland? In most decks they are awesome and I love the crucible/mishra/wasteland "combo", you could see fit crucible and maybe wasteland somewhere in those 75?
Bilbo, the list I posted does have additional pressure outside of Entreat/Jace with SCM/Factory. However, I've played Superfriends for long time with only a 2/2 split of Walkers as wincons just fine. Slow control decks with mass sweepers and Counterbalance are inherently grindy. Entreat speeds up the clock a good bit, though.
Also, Counterbalance doesn't need to hardlock someone to be enough. The card advantage between spells like Counterbalance and Terminus put people so far behind that it serves its purpose. If you gas Maverick or SNT out, it doesn't matter if they can sneak something past a Counterbalance at that point since you likely have another answer for it (Counterspell/StP/etc).
The two O Rings are a swiss army knife that can deal with an array of problems. Going with a black splash for Vindicate is better, but weakens the manabase, so it's a judgement call.
Either way, I like having access to them maindeck. They come in very handy very often.
Regarding Wasteland and Crucible, I don't know. The deck cannot support more colorless sources, but having answers to utility lands like manlands and Grove is nice. Crucible could be good, but I'm not sure it's necessary. I guess the best way to find out would be to try it.
Also, Entreat does count as a 3cc for Counterbalance, so I have 4 3cc spells at the moment.
I was testing a variation of this before AR was released and the biggest problem I had was closing out games in time/timely fashion. For reference I stopped testing at 3 jace 3 entreat and 3 factories. I was also toying with 2-3 cliques main to speed up the clock and because they work well with miracles.
Anyway im not a control player by nature so maybe this is just the nature of the archtype but have you guys encountered similar problems since it seems many run even less wincons then what I was testing?
I've been happy with my clock so far, with 4 Factory, 3 SCM, 3 Jace, 2 Entreat. I'm also used to running only 2 Elspeth and 2 Jace in earlier versions of this deck, which was a lot slower. I have closed out quite a few games now with Factory beats getting there while CounterTop and Terminus control the gamestate.
Attended a small 17-18 person tournament last Friday and came in equal 4th-7th. I will post a more detailed post in this entry later but for now here are my views on the above questions:
Counterbalance or no Counterbalance - I see the merits for and against. Counterbalance is great against some matchups and clunky in others. It can be good staying in the sideboard, however I would say yes to keeping them in the maindeck anyway.
SFM or no SFM - definitely no. It doesn't play well with Terminus and we have enough winconditions. I've never wished I had a SFM in my deck. If SFM was to be included, I say cut out Counterbalance for the board instead.
Elspeth or Entreats - definitely Entreats. Entreats provide more power whereas Elspeth leads to more grindy games. Entreats puts away games very very quickly which makes up for the slowness of the deck.
Ponders or more business - my personal preference is 22 lands and no Ponders as we have enough dig/cantrips.
Postboard Cliques - are working well for me.
Mishra's Factory - in my opinion, they are unnecessary and destabilise the manabase.
Wastelands - no, we want land drops not to lose them. Also there are fairly heavy UU and WW requirements in this deck now.
Oblivion Rings - I would rather run the 2 maindeck Spell Pierces, I feel that 3 Terminus is enough to deal with creature decks.
I had issues with the clock though (I was one turn away from winning through Snapcaster beatdown) but that was because I sided out Entreat the Angels. Everytime Entreat resolved, it was pretty much...game over.
My list at the moment is:
1cc (14)
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Spell Pierce
2cc (12)
4 Counterbalance
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Counterspell
3cc (2)
2 Entreat the Angels
4cc (3)
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
5cc (4)
4 Force of Will
6cc (3)
3 Terminus
22 Lands
4 Flooded Strand
6 Island
1 Karakas
2 Plains
4 Tundra
1 Kor Haven
4 Scalding Tarn
Sideboard:
2 Spell Pierce
2 Hydroblast
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Disenchant
1 Terminus
2 Path to Exile
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
I am extremely happy with the maindeck and sideboard at the moment. However, there are some matchups which I have found we have problems with:
1) Goblins - hence the Hydroblasts
2) Sneak Attack - Hydroblasts and Cliques and Pierces help here, we don't want Sneak Attacks or Show and Tells to resolve. Humility is too slow in my opinion.
3) BUG Control with Deed - haven't worked out this matchup yet, but I haven't been able to win any rounds against this deck yet. They have a better long game than us.
4) Dredge - 4 sideboard hate slots
This is the list that I'm going to be testing. Any comments or suggestions?
Lands (22):
3x Tundra
1x Glacial Fortress
4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
4x Mishra’s Factory
4x Island
1x Plains
1x Karakas
Spells (29):
4x Force of Will
4x Sensei’s Divining Top
4x Counterbalance
4x Brainstorm
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Terminus
2x Entreat the Angels
1x Oblivion Ring
2x Counterspell
1x Spell Snare
Creatures (5):
3x Snapcaster Mage
2x Vendilion Clique
Planeswalkers (4):
3x Jace the Mindsculptor
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Side (15):
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Humility
2 Disenchant
2 Spell Pierce
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Terminus
1 Circle of Protection: Red
EDIT: The Oblivion ring is mainly to have another answer when someone Show and Tells as It can get rid of the sneak attack/Emrakul/Griselbrand from my understanding. Humility is an amazing answer especially when playing Factories. All their creatures become 1/1's and our factories are still 2/2. The factories win the game by themselves and Elspeth can also race by jumping soldiers. It comes in when they show and Tell so it's uncounterable. You should try it because when they swing 8 times with an emrakul and then you play a factory and your opponent replies with "I can't beat that" it is hilarious.
Here is the breakdown on countertop flips
One’s: 13
Two’s: 9
Three’s: 5
Four’s: 4
Five’s: 4
Six’s: 3
Seven’s: 0
Humility isn't actually that slow vs Sneak Show. If they cast Show, you get to put Humility into play for free. If they go for Sneak... Sneak costs 4 mana plus 1, so you should have enough time to get it down. They usually won't be going off without protection, which can buy us time to set up stuff.
I'd rather rock Meddling Mage vs Spiral Tide and Sneak Show, but Clique is better against other combo and the mirror, so Clique seems like a solid sideboard option IMO. I may throw a few in my board and see how they turn out.
With so much emphasis on the counter suite (CB etc..), I feel Wasteland should be included over Factory. Why? Cavern of Souls.
When playin Spiral Tide I'd rather face Meddling Mage than Clique as I can Wipe Away the mage and combo out (unless the CB-Top is also resolved) but a draw step Clique is very annoying when you are just about to combo out and Clique forces you to lose either your combo piece or FoW.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
Cavern of Souls could be a problem. How much play do you guys think it will see? So far I've only seen it once out of Goblins, but I cut down on Counterbalances for Humility for that matchup in postboard games. Terminus was really good in that matchup too. Factory was still nice as a Lackey blocker, but I can see the merits of Wasteland for sure.
I went to Nashville this weekend and it's starting to be seen as a 2-of in Maverick. I didn't see much cavern of souls this weekend and anyways they are almost always cold to an Entreat the Angels or Terminus being cast.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
I cant understand why none of you is running the full 4 entreat the angels. You all agree that it is game winning, and it protects Jace like a boss (like 3+ flying bosses actually). It may seems a nonbo with terminus but i never had to sweep a board already dominated by avacyn's girls. In fact it forces the opponent to overextend, and consequently makes terminus a little bit better (a 5 for 2 instead of a 3 for 1 typically). Played as an instant before blockers and end of turn it feels like cheating.
I only run 2 Entreats because 8 Miracles is simply too many. Even with 6, sometimes I have a few dead spells in hand while I'm waiting for Brainstorm/Jace. Terminus is awesome as a 4-of because it costs 1 mana and compliments StP. I really don't want to be casting Entreat for less than 4, and preferably 5+. That means its a mid-late game card, which makes sense to be ran as a 2-of. Early game I want removal and stabilizers. Terminus accomplishes that, Entreat does not. Entreat has bad synergy with Terminus when played aggressively (i.e as a 4-of and casting it for 3 mana). I'd rather cast it and win with it than make 1-2 Angels that may stabilize or may eat removal. That's why I run 2. Although I've considered going up to 3 a few times. But 4 is a bit too much, IMO.
I partially agree with chabi : I went back to 3 entreat after cutting it down to 2 (I saw everyone doing that so I gave it a try). The card just has so much raw power. I also really like the possibility to use it as a defensive tool in the mid-game (spin top, make even 1 token and block delver is already very good) while still having another one for the late-game kill, and for that you really need 3.
I'm still very much undecided on the factory vs waste vs karakas/kor haven vs just more basics debate. They each have their own merits. The last option also allows you to play B2B in the board, which seems interesting although I'm not sure we really want it.
I'm also considering a splash for some more sideboard options, either green or black (although I guess red for REB is also an option). Green gives us krosan grip which seems important for the mirror if this archetype becomes more popular. Black gives us perish which I quite like even with 4 terminus. Hitting teeg (even protected by MoR) is also pretty cool. Plus we get to play some discard for the combo and control MU.