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Batterskull is slow, giving infinite time to answer it. Thrun blocks for days.
If the game has reached parity, my most common way of (eventually) answering Batterskull involves nuking the world for five w/ Deed and then Cabal Therapying it out of their hand when they return it. It's wonky, but they don't have many threats, so it works.
Putrefy is not a card imo. I went up to three Pulses, mostly for Jace, but answering opposing lilis is relevant too.
I am going to test the deck in a few weeks and I don't know what list I should try first. The BGW with the academy rectors, recurring nightmares and so on or Durward's BG version?
What card should be cut to have exactly 60 cards in Durward's list? I don't like to play 61 cards in a deck.
There aren't 61 cards, that was a mistake in the listing. There's only 1 Thrun, not x2.Quote:
Originally Posted by Theonlyone
@Theonlyone --
It depends on your personal playstyle, honestly. I would probably say that you should test Caleb's first, because even if you don't like it, you have some experience with the archetype then, and Caleb's, since he top8'd with it, is more likely to be seen running around than the GBW Rector version. I prefer the Rector version, but that's because it fits with my playstyle more. The great thing about Explorer decks is that you can pretty much build them to suit whatever your individual style is -- it lets you play a "rogue" deck, while playing an established archetype. And I'm pretty sure that we've only scratched the surface here.
Also, for what it's worth, I agree regarding Pulse vs Putrefy. Pulse wins every time. This deck can be slightly soft to Jace, so having more answers for him is a very welcome thing.
PS - yay us, for making established!
I have recently settled on a Nic Fit list that I felt was best (giving up on GWb Maverick). I decided against Diabolic Intent simply because the card is inherently flawed. The secondary uses of Intent do not make up for the card advantage-for-card quality exchange. Diabolic Intent can safely be labeled as a win-more card. Now with less sac outlets for Percy, I followed Richard Cheese's advice and cut them down to 3.
Abyssal Nic Fit:
Creatures (15)
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Kitchen Finks
3 Eternal Witness
3 Abyssal Persecutor
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Deranged Hermit
Spells (15)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Maelstrom Pulse
Others (7)
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Liliana of the Veil
Lands (23)
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
4 Forest
4 Swamp
Sideboard (15)
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Extirpate
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Mindbreak Trap
3 Damnation
However, there is 1 slot I really cannot make up my mind about: What is the best GSZ target in GB to destroy Artifacts/Enchantments. The experience I've had with Wickerbough Elder has left me bitter. As I have explained before, by the time I have 6 lands on the board, I am either holding, or have already used a Pulse or a Deed, and fetching a Witness is about as good if not better. Viridian Shaman is limited to Artifacts only and isn't as versatile on the draw because playing him proactively in the absence of artifacts is suboptimal. Viridian Zealot (or Qasali Pridemage) is half the cost of Wickerbough for the same ability, but he dies in the process instead of leaving you with a 4/4 body. However, the fact that Zealot dies when activated makes him more abusive in conjunction with Witness and Stronghold. The main cards I find myself using GSZ to get rid of are Batterskull, Jitte, and SoFaF. Against UW Counterblade, if they are on the draw, they can simply lay down a T1 SFM into T2 Batterskull and there is nothing I can do about it but try to Therapy/Hymn Batterskull away (assuming they don't counter). Against their wall of counters, I need to be able to come up with disruption and answers for Batterskull relentlessly in order to catch my breath and stomp them later (assuming they dont destroy me with Lab + Snap), and Wickerbough doesn't turn GSZ into early Bskull removal.
When I was reading about CalebD's top8 list, it got me thinking about the singleton Skeletal Scrying he wanted to implement. I can see how an EOT Scrying for 4+ get you back up in a losing game or seal the deal in a tied match, but I also see the card as a dead card to have in the early and mid-game. Also, bringing the board to a stall often leaves me with a low life total, making Scrying just as dead in the late-game. It seems to me that Volrath's Stronghold is just about as good in the late-game as Scrying without necessarily being dead in the early stages.
Hey I was toying with Nic Fit and actually create unusual list:
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Grave Titan
1 Primeval Titan
1 Avenger of Zendikar
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Life from the Loam
3 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Natural Order
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Forest
4 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bayou
2 Windswept Heath
1 Savannah
SB: 3 Choke
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 4 Innocent Blood
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Kitchen Finks
SB: 4 Hymn to Tourach
What is new ? NO's and 2 targets which also can be fetched from GSZ quite easy Primeval Titan and Avenger of Zendikar - most of guys can think that they're too slow but most of time, as long as game goes on you have plenty of time and your mana growth on. I added also Life from the Loam to cycle important lands, and never had problems with targets under Volrath's Stronghold. I adnotice that Hermit isn't a bomb without Recurring Nightmare..
SB is still a mess but mostly I like Innocent Blood there very anti-aggro card.
Deck is very funny to play - having 8 toxes 4/5 in legacy isn't too usual :).
Hi,
I have been testing both the GB version and the GBw version of Arianrhod (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ontrol)/page12 post 232 of this thread) and I feel that this deck sometimes mulls into oblivion (testing on an online program cockatrice so there is a random factor) because of low land count. I swapped out 1 Academy Rector for another Savannah (22 lands now) and I feel it runs much more smoother. I have had a number of ragequits which involved me raping the board and hand of my opp. Feels dirty....:cool:
any comments on the addition of 1 land?
I don't think anyone will try to discourage you from running the 22nd land. I am confident, and it is probably obvious, that a 22nd land would be more correct than dropping to 20 with this deck. It is also worth noting that the list you copied is one of the higher casting cost versions of this archetype.
For example (excluding ability to cheat into play), his cmc is 109 vs. the more common mid 80s to high 90s.
I like the interaction between recurring nightmare and yosei or kokusho because it gives either a soft lock/break stalemate or an alternate kill. Sun Titan can be really nuts at times. The only time I felt I needed the rectors was against combo elves to cheat deed into play. Sun Titan into deed before blocks is dirty as well.
After testing only a short time I feel this deck can be a pain to play against, it's niche and that is how I like it.
I'm glad you're enjoying it, slaydo. I'd definitely recommend checking out my updated list (back a page at post 297, if that makes it easier to find). I believe (this is out my ass without checking) that my cmc has come down a bit, so the extra land may be unnecessary now. Also, and beyond any other real reason, you haven't lived until you've shot a Rector with Garruk Relentless. It's quite possibly the dirtiest feeling I've had in magic (and I play Oath in vintage). Relentless has a ridiculous amount of synergy with the rest of the deck.
That said, I certainly agree with Conboy -- more lands in this archetype rarely feels like a bad move. I usually don't run into trouble, but I'm also sitting at 22 land (if you count Dryad Arbor, which it periodically is). If you have any questions, feel free to either post them or shoot me a PM.
I am begining to think that Primeval Titan might be better than Grave Titan.
Primeval can:
-Trample;
-be fetched via GSZ;
-take less deck space;
-grabs you Volrath's Stronghold and another land such as Wasteland to get rid of Riptide Laboratory/Maze of Ith when it comes into play;
-overall offer you more versatility, resillience, and synergy.
Grave can:
-Deathtouch;
-grant you tokens as blockers or to kill your opponent quicker;
-be substituted by Deranged Hermit to some degree;
-give you bad starting hands and draws when played in multiples;
-overall grant you creatures instead of lands (the effect is more immediate) at a higher opportunity cost.
Do with this as you will, Qweerios --
A few months ago, I had a similar notion, which led to a more combo finish concept, with Primeval fetching Coffers/Urborg and then using the bonkers mana resulting to loop Nightmare with Kokusho an arbitrarily large number of times. After testing it in one small local event, I dismissed it as hilarious and win-more, but if you sculpt the deck around it a bit more, there might be some design room there. It's also entirely possible that it's just absolutely janky and awful and should be tossed aside immediately.
I do agree that a good green 6 would be greatly appreciated -- the threshold of power between 5-drops and 6-drops is just enormous, and this deck doesn't care as much as most others. I think that at the moment, the best we can do is run a Fierce Empath...although that takes up a precious deck slot. At the same time, Zenithing for Empath into Sun Titan is about as big of a knockout as you can ask for.
Uhh... I don't know what is so similar there to be honest. I compared both titans for what they brought to the table and the restrictions they put on building the deck, no combos. I personally don't like the combo approach and disaprove of 6-drops altogether.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
Also, has anybody else been having trouble against Blue Burn?
Burn in general seems bad for this deck. Lots of basics, fast clock. Game 1 it seems like you have to hope to see multiple Therapies, and Finks if you run it. Leyline of Sanctity out of the board seems like it would make it a lot easier. Blue versions still have Delver and possibly Guide/Snapcaster to swing with, but Deed fixes those guys.Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
Edit: I also like Primeval better than Grave titan, just because tokens + Deed seems underwhelming, but I'm not convinced that either is entirely necessary.
Red Burn isn't as much of a problem as Blue Burn though. Red will run out of steam if you can land 1 discard spell and manage to find a finks. Everything you do against mono red goes uncountered. The thing about blue burn is that if I don't start, I lose. I can't get rid of Delver before it dishes out 6 damage, throw in Goblin Guide and even if I sweep the board on T4, I have 10-12 life remaining. Very fast decks tend to be hard to outlive. I am seriously considering the following for my sideboard as replacement for a couple of Damnation:
Sorin's Thirst
Infest
Tribute to Hunger
Consuming Vapors
What builds have you been testing against/having trouble with particularly? I'm also working on a U/R Burn deck at the moment, so I can definitely run through a few games on Cockatrice with you if you want. Could use some pointers on my budding but janky Nic Fit list anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
I finally settled on Consuming Vapors. It does everything i need from Damnation against Reanimator, Emrakul/Progenitus, Maverick/Deadguy (decks using Mother of Runes). It bought me back into Blue Burn and fast Zoo everytime i drew it.
Sorin's Thirst was too specific to the Blue Burn matchup and didn't really help against any other fast decks I had trouble with. Tribute to Hunger does a fine job being instant speed and 3 CMC, but cannot target Percy.
Hi guys,
I recently stumbled across a somewhat different Nit Fit list abusing gifts ungiven and after some testing I have to say it really like it.
The list:
1 Deranged Hermit
1 Doran, the Siege Tower
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Rafiq of the Many
1 Rhox War Monk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
3 Eternal Witness
3 Wall of Blossoms
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Gifts Ungiven
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Regrowth
3 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Island
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Plains
1 Polluted Delta
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
2 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
3 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
SB: 1 Rhox War Monk
SB: 1 Pernicious Deed
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 3 Choke
SB: 1 Loaming Shaman
SB: 1 Trygon Predator
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 The Abyss
I'm not say its optimal or anything but I just find it a blast to play. Is anyone still working on Gifts Ungiven lists or is the whole gifts concept abandoned?
@Removal: Damnation is horrible against Delver, but it is in the SB to keep being ahead against Maverick and Merfolk post board. But I don't think overcosted lifegain stuff is the answer to Delver decks either. 1 Mana removal is the key imo. The easiest way would be to use White for Swords to Plowshares but if you stick with Black Innocent Blood, Darkblast or Disfigure are viable choices.
@Gifts: Rafiq, War Monk and Doran seem like great Swords to Plowshares targets for them, though War Monk could be worth running against Lightning Bolt decks. Horizon Canopy is just too greedy. In Gifts lists I would play one Sun Titan, it makes a good target together with Recurring Nightmare and Witness.
Another option for Gifts decks would be to steal tech from Modern and add one Unburial Rites. It is an ok card on its own and if you only search two cards they both go to the yard so you get a free Reanimate of whatever you like but I am not sure if it is worth it.
@Primeval Titan: Sound very good, I will test it. Riptide Lab is such a plague and it could be a decent GSZ target. Grabbing Stronghold sounds nice.
I have been still tinkering with my Gifts list alongside my primary list. Here's what I've got, for reference:
4x Veteran Explorer
1x Viridian Zealot
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Snapcaster Mage
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Fierce Empath
2x Eternal Witness
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Consecrated Sphinx
1x Frost Titan
1x Kokusho, the Evening Star
3x Pernicious Deed
1x Recurring Nightmare
4x Brainstorm
3x Gifts Ungiven
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Living Wish
1x Regrowth
2x Bayou
2x Tropical Island
1x Underground Sea
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Phyrexian Tower
3x Misty Rainforest
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Forest
3x Island
2x Swamp
1x Dryad Arbor
//SB
1x Eternal Witness
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Phyrexian Metamorph
1x Simic Sky Swallower
1x Trygon Predator
2x Krosan Grip*
4x Spell Pierce*
4x Hymn to Tourach*
Note: the asterisk'd sideboard slots (10 of them) are completely unknown at this point. They only reason there's a sideboard at all is so that I have the Wish targets laid out for Cockatrice. Also, Viridian Zealot sucks balls, but I have yet to find anything better, unfortunately.
My thoughts on the deck are as follows:
-) It's much, much scarier later-game than probably any other version. Nightmare loops with Snapcaster just feel dirty and wrong. Having access to Brainstorm also helps (shocking, I know). Fetches, Explorers, and GSZ give plenty of shuffles.
-) A 1-of Living Wish to put as a wild card for Gifts piles is amazing. Individual sideboard slots will vary, but Sky Swallower is still my UG control finisher of choice. Nothing kills that in legacy.
-) It's slow. Even with Explorers to ramp up (necessary for Gifts IMO), it's painfully, painfully slow. It definitely doesn't take a dump on aggro decks like the rock-colored lists, and Merfolk is actually pretty shitty if you don't see a Deed. Welcome to being a blue deck, I suppose.
-) It's not good against combo. The loss of Hymn without any counterspells added is brutal for your combo matchup. This is a deck that is designed to out-attrition control mirrors, and not do a whole hell of a lot else, apparently.
-) On the plus side, blue gives you Consecrated Sphinx, which is IMO the best 6-drop you could possibly use in an Explorer deck. By the time he lands, they won't have removal, and Explorers will have sucked out a lot of land from your deck, making every card he draws you gas. Every time I've resolved Sphinx, I've won. Period. Frost Titan isn't horrible, and gives you random outs to problems you might otherwise die to, but I think he's safely cuttable. Kokusho is industry-standard for my lists at this point. He's unmatched as an alternate wincon.
-) Speaking of alternate wincons, the best way to beat Jace is to play Jace. Sometimes the deck just plays like Jacestill, which is annoying and not really what I -want- to be doing with the deck, but Jace + Deed is indeed a thing (pun intended).
-----
TL;DR:
1. Gifts is slow, unwieldy against aggro, and has no game against combo. Different deck construction (more Gifts Rock, less Nic Fit) might fix that.
2. Gifts rapes control decks, hard. Consecrated Sphinx is Jesus on a cinnamon bun (no idea what this means, but it sounds good).
3. Living Wish is surprisingly useful.
4. At the end of the day, go for it. If you enjoy the Gifts version, build it. The glorious thing about this archetype is that you can literally build a rogue deck within the accepted shell, and it'll work at least some of the time. More than that, you'll have to work on it. But it's entirely possible to just plain have fun with some of these decks. My suggestion would be to look more along the lines of a Gifts rock utilizing the Explorer engine and Nic Fit concepts, as opposed to taking a Nic Fit deck and shoehorning Gifts in. It's just too slow, and weakens the matchups vs combo and aggro too much.
Oh, and if you're going to go down this path, you really, really need the 1-of Snapcaster. Seriously. Even before you start Nightmare-looping it, it's just dirty in a Gifts Pile. They never know if you're going to snap back something they just binned, or if you're going to snap back Gifts (!).