[Deck] Zombardment

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Originally Posted by ironclad8690

Jeez those cards are pushed. I can't wait to see what ReneRandrup cooks up.

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I like both of those cards better than Restless Dead... but not really a whole lot.

Colossus would be awesome if we swapped out Lingering Souls and Bloodghast for more Zombies. But... why on Earth would we do that? Souls gives us evasion and 2 - 4 tokens. Ghast comes back for free. These seem way too good to cut. And, without that, how many Zombies are we really gonna have in our yard on a good day? 4? 5? A finisher that can't compete with Goyf isn't much of a finisher.

Prized Amalgam... I don't know. It suggests dipping into U, which seems suspicious, or resigning yourself to the fact that you will never cast this guy except when you bring back a Bloodghast or a Crawler. Now, those things happen a LOT in this deck, so I feel like this is an acceptable aggro option. Perhaps in a build that minimizes the combo-seque interactions in favor of just trying to dump zombie power onto the board as fast as humanly possible?

Turn 1, Faithless Looting / Careful Study, pitching Bloodghast and Amalgam
Turn 2, Faithless Looting / Careful Study, pitching two more Amalgam, play land, end turn with 11 power.

That's a dream draw that kills on turn 4 against a goldfish. That's not terrible.

Zombardment top 8'ed a 59-person tournament yesterday

// Lands
2 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
4 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath

// Creatures
1 Bloodghast
2 Carrion Feeder
3 Dark Confidant
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Gravecrawler
1 Lotleth Troll
2 Tidehollow Sculler

// Instants
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Swords to Plowshares

// Sorceries
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Lingering Souls
2 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge

// Enchantments
2 Goblin Bombardment
1 Mirri's Guile

// Artifacts
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte

// Planeswalkers
3 Liliana of the Veil

SB: 1 Bitterblossom
SB: 1 Blood Moon
SB: 1 Chains of Mephistopheles
SB: 1 Choke
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Garruk Relentless
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge

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Originally Posted by Scott

Zombardment top 8'ed a 59-person tournament yesterday

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No offense, but it looks like a bad Zombardment (Troll-)Deck with lots of random 1offs. It's great for the player that he top8'ed a tournament with that pile of cards, but i don't see any evolutionary idea for this archetype.

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Speaking of new ideas: Anyone tested Diregraf Colosuss here?

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Originally Posted by MD.Ghost

No offense, but it looks like a bad Zombardment (Troll-)Deck with lots of random 1offs. It's great for the player that he top8'ed a tournament with that pile of cards, but i don't see any evolutionary idea for this archetype.

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Speaking of new ideas: Anyone tested Diregraf Colosuss here?

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Lol, yeah I think he was in a rush and took his Tiny Leaders deck to the tourney and just tossed in a few extra cards. Even the SB is a bunch of 1-of's. There's enough discard and synergy it probably didn't matter though how random.

(I always wondered how I'd do taking a "Hearthstone" approach and just loading a deck with 1 and 2-of's lol)

With such an unsupportive community, it's tough to see use in posting a tournament report. The amount of constructive feedback that would be given appears to be minimal in the best case.

edit: of course, I don't mean that all of The Source is unsupportive.

Wow, I have not seen this much dissing on fellow patrons of the same deck in a long time. @Glowparty, I would be interested in your tournament report regardless. In fact, I came to this thread to seek out that specifically.

How much testing has PRized Amalgam had? That seems like a really potent card in a more self-mill shell.

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Originally Posted by Mystical_Jackass

Lol, yeah I think he was in a rush and took his Tiny Leaders deck to the tourney and just tossed in a few extra cards. Even the SB is a bunch of 1-of's. There's enough discard and synergy it probably didn't matter though how random.

(I always wondered how I'd do taking a "Hearthstone" approach and just loading a deck with 1 and 2-of's lol)

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I'm not really sure what the point of this post is; there's not much functional difference between a lot of these cards. Are we on black/green with lilly, DRS, and confidant - check, 9 slots. Does it have sorcery speed discard - check, 7 slots (8 with k-command). Do we have removal that includes abrupt decay, check - 4 slots (5 with k-command). All the creatures outside DRS/Confidant work well together and have synergistic interactions with Cabal Therapy and Lilly as +1 discard recurring fodder and recurring sac outlets - 10 slots.

Either you're not liking the land base, or are taking some issue with Lingering Souls x2//Toxic Deluge x1 //Goblin Bombardment x2//Jitte x1//Mirri's Guile x1//SDT x1???

I play vs this pilot at Time Vault, and in this deck's current iteration there isn't a ton of white (though I've seen 3-4 StP versions), so that's perhaps a valid question (was white splash needed? that said I like only 2 copies of white mana with 6 fetches able to find the basic). I've never seen his Goblin Bombardment go off, but then again I'm not playing a fair deck where it's relevant - what I can tell you is that the meta there at the 1k was overwhelmingly fair, and I'm guessing Bombardment, Lotleth's trample, and Jitte probably did a number on anyone who was using Mother of Runes. There were also a lot of chalices floating around that day, and the deck + sideboard has a lot of 2-cmc play to it. The total number of fetches (12) seems high (by 1-2x), but aggressively able to locate the basics it needs for operation under Blood Moon - so perhaps that's another question is how Choke performed vs it being Blood Moon #2.

What exactly are you hoping to see @MD.Ghost and @Mystical_Jackass without the $600 change to quad-goyf [eventaully Jund]? You start casting Entomb into Bridge from Below, or otherwise becoming more yard-centric, and you definitely get the yard-hate package post-board. From watching it played, it occupies an interesting niche being resistant to Chalice, yard-hate, p-fire, and Wasteland/Blood Moon - as far as the 1k went, that was a pretty good place to be.

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Originally Posted by Fox

I'm not really sure what the point of this post is; there's not much functional difference between a lot of these cards. Are we on black/green with lilly, DRS, and confidant - check, 9 slots. Does it have sorcery speed discard - check, 7 slots (8 with k-command). Do we have removal that includes abrupt decay, check - 4 slots (5 with k-command). All the creatures outside DRS/Confidant work well together and have synergistic interactions with Cabal Therapy and Lilly as +1 discard recurring fodder and recurring sac outlets - 10 slots.

Either you're not liking the land base, or are taking some issue with Lingering Souls x2//Toxic Deluge x1 //Goblin Bombardment x2//Jitte x1//Mirri's Guile x1//SDT x1???

I play vs this pilot at Time Vault, and in this deck's current iteration there isn't a ton of white (though I've seen 3-4 StP versions), so that's perhaps a valid question (was white splash needed? that said I like only 2 copies of white mana with 6 fetches able to find the basic). I've never seen his Goblin Bombardment go off, but then again I'm not playing a fair deck where it's relevant - what I can tell you is that the meta there at the 1k was overwhelmingly fair, and I'm guessing Bombardment, Lotleth's trample, and Jitte probably did a number on anyone who was using Mother of Runes. There were also a lot of chalices floating around that day, and the deck + sideboard has a lot of 2-cmc play to it. The total number of fetches (12) seems high (by 1-2x), but aggressively able to locate the basics it needs for operation under Blood Moon - so perhaps that's another question is how Choke performed vs it being Blood Moon #2.

What exactly are you hoping to see @MD.Ghost and @Mystical_Jackass without the $600 change to quad-goyf [eventaully Jund]? You start casting Entomb into Bridge from Below, or otherwise becoming more yard-centric, and you definitely get the yard-hate package post-board. From watching it played, it occupies an interesting niche being resistant to Chalice, yard-hate, p-fire, and Wasteland/Blood Moon - as far as the 1k went, that was a pretty good place to be.

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There is a lot of noise on the source that is not constructive, and most posts don’t have a point. I wouldn’t let it get under your skin as it’s been this way for a long time. I guess you can say its part of the “charm”

I disagree that there “not a lot of functional difference between a lot of these cards” there is a basic core for either the 3 color versions and 4 color versions and this list posted above is missing a lot of that core. Anytime you deviate from that core you going to get a lot of raised eyebrows, and the list above deviates a lot. Don’t get me wrong there are also a lot of cards that have functional similarities, but there are some awkward cards too like Lotleth troll you mentioned I think most people are going to expect to see another bloodghast there and that is a pretty big functional difference. I also think there is some questionable card choices, like if you’re trying to avoid COTV, why not run Sylvan Library instead of the Top/Guile split. Top is also extremely mana intensive which completes with things like Gravecrawler. Also I don’t think goyf is where you want to go, there are better for goyf decks like jund or shardless.

I think what they are hoping to see is focus in a decklist so they can take ideas or new technology to try them out. The first time you look at that list it’s a bit of a mess honestly and to me it feels like a mash up of Jund and Zombardment. It’s hard to take away anything from that list because it feels so peppered with different strategies and concepts. Regardless congrats to the piolet and there finish.

hi folks! The report is based on limited memory. I couldn't sleep much before the tournament.


round 1: ANT 2-0
game 1: I have just enough consistent hand interaction to pressure him to make 12 goblins T4 or so. I race him with troll & deathrite blocks, while feeder attacks. It wasn't a tough race, and I thoughtseize him to safeguard against additional funny business.

game 2: I mulligan to 6 and T-1 therapy an infernal tutor. He knows I have teeg & choke in hand and concedes when teeg resolves (he didn't board in decays).


round 2: eldrazi 2-1
game 1: I identify his deck from small talk we make, so I mulligan for an OK maindeck hand. I grind him out with discard and lilli, building my offense until it kills.

game 2: I try to buy time with bitterblossom, but chalice on 1 trounces my hand and draw steps.

game 3: I remember enjoying how easily diabolic edicts level a playing field.


round 3: miracles 2-0
game 1: He accidentally resolves brainstorm T1 like a sensei's top activation (ouch)! An early guile helps me throw 2 lilli's at him and ultimate both. The first ultimate may've been best as jace, top versus lands, cb. This game takes twenty minutes.

game 2: He keeps a land heavy hand without top, so i thoughtseize a threat or removal spell. Basically I end up getting chains on an otherwise empty board, then jitte and start throwing creatures at him as they show up. Eventually I get a confidant to trigger, getting bitterblossom and teeg from it, lol.


round 4: bug delver 2-0
game 1: the only creature his deck provided him is one or two deathrites, so I just had to navigate his disruption to seal the game with higher value cards than his threats can match.

game 2: again he doesn't see a creature besides a deathrite. I sort of just sit with chains in play waiting to be able to cast the blood moon in my hand. I finally draw the red source for blood moon, and he concedes.


rounds 5 & 6: intentional draw


top 8: lands 1-2
game 1: I actually have a great hand which made me try to eek out a maindeck win. This is one of my worst pre-board matchups.

for the rest, see:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...608#post944608

sorry I can't add anything. My memory was getting weak for this long round. I will say that game 3 I expected guile to find me blood moon or a surgical after all those shuffles. Sounds like the moon wouldn't have stuck but a surgical on life from the loam may've had potential. Congrats on some tough playing and your success, Emrakul.


Post-tournament remarks:
I'm always slowly refining corners of the deck. It probably needs more against lands post-board. I'm focusing on Lands, Miracles, Painter at the moment.

Cutting choke for second blood moon seems good. To mitigate a detriment to Miracles, I'll try cutting the kolaghan's command for bitterblossom maindeck. I now have a 14-card sideboard to work with.

@Fox: other advantages of 12 fetches are bloodghast triggers for bombardment, shuffles for guile/top, and land thinning. Why do you feel that it has too many fetches?

@rampart: i don't follow your disagreeing that there aren't functional differences between some cards, saying the list deviates the status quo, which seems unrelated.

I play lotleth troll because I like protecting liliana. I haven't found him especially awkward.

I don't run sylvan library because I've other spells turn 2, and guile/top gives me 8 optimal plays turn 1 on the play. Additionally, I play chains. Top only competes with crawler if you're trying to bombard, in which case the silver bullet for that matchup is online.

Regarding goyf: that a card works better in some other deck doesn't answer, "Is this card better than another card in this slot?"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by glowparty

hi folks! The report is based on limited memory. I couldn't sleep much before the tournament.


round 1: ANT 2-0
game 1: I have just enough consistent hand interaction to pressure him to make 12 goblins T4 or so. I race him with troll & deathrite blocks, while feeder attacks. It wasn't a tough race, and I thoughtseize him to safeguard against additional funny business.

game 2: I mulligan to 6 and T-1 therapy an infernal tutor. He knows I have teeg & choke in hand and concedes when teeg resolves (he didn't board in decays).


round 2: eldrazi 2-1
game 1: I identify his deck from small talk we make, so I mulligan for an OK maindeck hand. I grind him out with discard and lilli, building my offense until it kills.

game 2: I try to buy time with bitterblossom, but chalice on 1 trounces my hand and draw steps.

game 3: I remember enjoying how easily diabolic edicts level a playing field.


round 3: miracles 2-0
game 1: He accidentally resolves brainstorm T1 like a sensei's top activation (ouch)! An early guile helps me throw 2 lilli's at him and ultimate both. The first ultimate may've been best as jace, top versus lands, cb. This game takes twenty minutes.

game 2: He keeps a land heavy hand without top, so i thoughtseize a threat or removal spell. Basically I end up getting chains on an otherwise empty board, then jitte and start throwing creatures at him as they show up. Eventually I get a confidant to trigger, getting bitterblossom and teeg from it, lol.


round 4: bug delver 2-0
game 1: the only creature his deck provided him is one or two deathrites, so I just had to navigate his disruption to seal the game with higher value cards than his threats can match.

game 2: again he doesn't see a creature besides a deathrite. I sort of just sit with chains in play waiting to be able to cast the blood moon in my hand. I finally draw the red source for blood moon, and he concedes.


rounds 5 & 6: intentional draw


top 8: lands 1-2
game 1: I actually have a great hand which made me try to eek out a maindeck win. This is one of my worst pre-board matchups.

for the rest, see:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...608#post944608

sorry I can't add anything. My memory was getting weak for this long round. I will say that game 3 I expected guile to find me blood moon or a surgical after all those shuffles. Sounds like the moon wouldn't have stuck but a surgical on life from the loam may've had potential. Congrats on some tough playing and your success, Emrakul.


Post-tournament remarks:
I'm always slowly refining corners of the deck. It probably needs more against lands post-board. I'm focusing on Lands, Miracles, Painter at the moment.

Cutting choke for second blood moon seems good. To mitigate a detriment to Miracles, I'll try cutting the kolaghan's command for bitterblossom maindeck. I now have a 14-card sideboard to work with.

@Fox: other advantages of 12 fetches are bloodghast triggers for bombardment, shuffles for guile/top, and land thinning. Why do you feel that it has too many fetches?

@rampart: i don't follow your disagreeing that there aren't functional differences between some cards, saying the list deviates the status quo, which seems unrelated.

I play lotleth troll because I like protecting liliana. I haven't found him especially awkward.

I don't run sylvan library because I've other spells turn 2, and guile/top gives me 8 optimal plays turn 1 on the play. Additionally, I play chains. Top only competes with crawler if you're trying to bombard, in which case the silver bullet for that matchup is online.

Regarding goyf: that a card works better in some other deck doesn't answer, "Is this card better than another card in this slot?"

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Those comments really were not directed at you, mostly Fox’s post.

I guess what I am trying to say is that your list deviates from the historical norm (good, bad or indifferent) and there is functional differences from that classic shell. The OP Fox made it seem like all the parts of this deck are interchangeable which just is not accurate if you have played this deck long enough. You don’t get the same sort of classic functionality of bloodghast if you are running only one in your main deck because you are running three Dark Confidant instead. That being said there is some level of interchangeability, the discard cards for example could be IOK or Thoughtseize with very little difference most of the time.

@ Lotlth Troll - I find the card awkward, I expected that you didn’t because you are playing with it and I am sure you had a good reason for that inclusion. Outside of your experience I was playing around with it in my sideboard and I just didn’t find that useful.

@ SDT/Library/Guile Discussion - Which is totally reasonable also you have 19 turn one plays that are all pretty optimal not sure where you get 8 from. SDT competes with a lot imho. Zombardment is basically a proactive deck and you’re trying to utilize you mana the most efficiently every turn while top is not mana efficient because it’s basically a mana drain turn after turn. How many times are you going to miss deploying that powerful turn two play because you topped during your upkeep or miss deploying Liliana of the Veil on time because your hand is saturated with other permanents to deploy etc. To me SDT has real costs, and I would just want to run another Mirri’s Guile (which is sweet by the way.) Also you can grow Feeder with Gravecrawler as a mana sink.

@ Goyf Statement - Sure, but that’s the most empirical way to interrupt my statement. What cards are you going to cut for Goyf? Gravecrawler? Lingering Souls? The rest of the Zombie package? Aren’t you just working yourself closer and closer to Jund which is a different deck, you’re not that far off. Wouldn’t that discussion be more relevant in the Jund thread which is an actual good stuff Goyf deck verses Zombardment. I guess my feelings is that the inclusion of goyf in to your deck list basically takes the Zombardment shell out of the Zombardment deck to some extent.

On another note: I have been playing the ReneRandup build for a 1 and half months now and I am finding that the Magus of the Moons in the sideboard are not holding there weight: Any suggestions for the Green Filled metagame on MTGO. Last league I went 4-1 with the list below.

List
4 DRS
4 Carrion Feeder
4 Gravecrawler
4 Bloodghast
3 Satyr Wayfinder
1 Grim Haruspex

4 Entomb
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Faithless Looting
3 Goblin Bombardment
2 Bridge From Below
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Thoughtseize

19 Lands (Normal Stuff)

3 Seal of Primordium
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Perish
1 Attrition
2 Choke
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Duress
1 Fire Covenant

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Originally Posted by Rampart

The OP Fox made it seem like all the parts of this deck are interchangeable which just is not accurate if you have played this deck long enough. You don’t get the same sort of classic functionality of bloodghast if you are running only one in your main deck because you are running three Dark Confidant instead.

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Bloodghasts were primarily replaced with synergistic grindier cards (third liliana, lingering souls, jitte). I can't recall the evolution of confidant's inclusion, but probably they function as replacement for faithless looting moreso.

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Originally Posted by Rampart

@ Lotlth Troll - I expected that you didn't find troll awkward because you are playing with it and I am sure you had a good reason for that inclusion. Outside of your experience I was playing around with it in my sideboard and I just didn’t find that useful.

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I imagine troll is more valuable when aiming to dominate all zones of the game. In that slower strategy, a zombie super-wall with trample is quite the... savior.

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Originally Posted by Rampart

@SDT/Library/Guile Discussion - 19 turn one optimal not sure where you get 8 from. SDT competes; Zombardment is proactive; you utilize your mana the most efficiently every turn while top is not mana efficient because it mana drains turn after turn. How many times are you going to miss deploying that powerful turn two play because you topped or miss deploying Liliana of the Veil on time...

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I definetely don't consider feeder or crawler optimal T1 plays for the meta at large (e.g. storm). Therapy is not optimal on the play, and I'm dumbfounded that you count that as an optimal T1 move. Regarding Top, I don't spin it turns 2-3 if I have impactful spells to cast... in this shell. It seems like you're not considering the optimal approaches to the cards in this list. Top is better than guile in immediate effects, and also when playing a grindfest matchup.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rampart

@ Goyf Statement - Sure, but that’s the most empirical way to interrupt my statement.

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I was not attacking your opinion, with which I agree. My point was merely that your argument has minimal sway.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rampart

another note: I have been playing the ReneRandup build for a 1 and half months now and I am finding that the Magus of the Moons in the sideboard are not holding there weight: Any suggestions for the Green Filled metagame on MTGO. Last league I went 4-1 with the list below.

List
4 DRS
4 Carrion Feeder
4 Gravecrawler
4 Bloodghast
3 Satyr Wayfinder
1 Grim Haruspex

4 Entomb
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Faithless Looting
3 Goblin Bombardment
2 Bridge From Below
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Thoughtseize

19 Lands (Normal Stuff)

3 Seal of Primordium
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Perish
1 Attrition
2 Choke
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Duress
1 Fire Covenant

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I like the seals, although I'm concerned about their deadness to a post top-lock. I'm also wondering if you can face storm effectively without bears. Are you just quick enough to the kill where discard is enough?

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Originally Posted by glowparty

I like the seals, although I'm concerned about their deadness to a post top-lock. I'm also wondering if you can face storm effectively without bears. Are you just quick enough to the kill where discard is enough?

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@Troll and Deck:
Wait are you saying that a Zombie Super Wall Troll is a savior – that’s got to be some sort of flavor fail. As a whole you deck feels a little mid-rangier than the traditional lists, which is fine in my opinion, it’s your deck and you play what feels right to you based off what your meta is and such. Also let’s keep in mind that you’re playing with all good cards too, Liliana of the Veil is a powerful cards that can do a lot. I just think as a whole you list is a departure from the standard (not like my list isn’t either) so it give you different options and play to it.

@Optimal Turn One:
So the games where you cast a turn one therapy on the play are probably optimal given what the lay out of your hand is. If you have a better turn one play you would make that but if you are playing therapy it means that you have the next two turns mapped out already with either a Bob in to Lilana or Sculler into Souls etc or any combination of a two drop into a three drop. To me a turn one Therapy is not as powerful as you don’t have the full scope of information (its much more powerful on turn two), but depending on how your hand lines up or what you’re playing against it can be optimal from a mana efficiency and a sequencing stand point. I think from the same legs I can make an argument for Feeder and Crawler but I shelve that for now because it’s a lot of the same as above. Against Storm I find that I need to get something on the board to pressure there life total so casting a Feeder or Crawler is fine in my opinion as it gets the ball rolling.

No, I disagree, I am considering your list when speaking about approaches I just think we differ in how we interpret optimal. To me when I hear the term optimal it’s really about contextual approaches and mana efficiency. SDT to me is not a mana efficient card (there is one caveat to that and it’s basically when we are talking about net mana utilization over the course of a game, basically unused mana is not efficient so top provides and outlet for that) it’s just a more powerful card then Guile is because it just does more and reaches more cards in the mid and late games. Guile is more efficient to me because the net mana investment is less, and it doesn’t require any more investment. Even your Zombardment list is mana hungry, its 4c, lots of different casting costs up and down the curve (even more in the sideboard) and there is the Crawlers loops etc. I am not saying SDT is wrong, it might be just what you need with Bob, I would of just tried the second Guile first. Although he Green for the Guile is a big downside.

TD,DR: I get your perspective I just see things differently as its more contextual for me.

@ Goyf:
No worries, I didn’t think you were attacking me or my opinion, I’m just not sure I could make an argument with a lot of sway on the topic. It’s just one of those things where you get into a large spiritual discussion about how you define Zombardment as Zombardment or Jund as Jund or whatever. It’s hard to data mine theoretical stuff like is “Strategy A” better in this then “Strategy B” in this deck because people have personal preferences and other factors of the like. IDK


@Seal and Storm:
LOL so the seals actually were not for Counter/Top. I mostly play online now and I was running into a lot of Leyline of the Void (Coming out of Shardless, 4c Loam, Eldrazi, etc) which is just a giant beating for the version I am playing with so I needed to do something and seal is what I decided on. I am actually down to just one seal now, which has been working out well.

So I am 13-2 against ANT (which feels high but thats what happened on Modo). I can kill on turn 4-5 with disruption pretty easily and between the 4 Therapys and the 4 Entombs to get additional Therapys If can generally slow them down to the point I cast about 5 of the them in a game where they don’t just kill me on turn two and the matchup gets better after sideboard. My matchups are slightly worse against the other faster storm/combo decks but still positive. The biggest problem I have had on the Combo side of the format is Reanimator. I mostly see the B/R version which just put a dork in play on turn one or two most of the time which is just too fast for me to interact with and they are more resilient that I first thought. So I have had to add an additional Surgical and a Pithing needle which has made it better.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rampart

@Troll and Deck:
As a whole you deck feels a little mid-rangier than the traditional lists. Also let’s keep in mind that you’re playing with all good cards too, Liliana of the Veil is a powerful cards that can do a lot.

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This is why Troll is effective here. His regen helps to reliably have a zombie for Crawler, and helps to protect Lili and myself while other pieces come together.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rampart

@Optimal Turn One:
So the games where you cast a turn one therapy on the play are probably optimal given what the lay out of your hand is. depending on how your hand lines up or what you’re playing against it can be optimal from a mana efficiency and a sequencing stand point.

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On the play against an unknown opponent means therapy's effectiveness isn't dependant on the deck you're facing, I think.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rampart

I think from the same legs I can make an argument for Feeder and Crawler but I shelve that for now because it’s a lot of the same as above. Against Storm I find that I need to get something on the board to pressure there life total so casting a Feeder or Crawler is fine in my opinion as it gets the ball rolling.

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the effectiveness of a T1 Feeder or Crawler is just more dependant on whether your hand is meaningfully supportive in the next couple turns, whereas Seize, Deathrite, Top, Guile support most plays that follow them as an opener.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rampart

No, I disagree, I am considering your list when speaking about approaches I just think we differ in how we interpret optimal. To me when I hear the term optimal it’s really about contextual approaches and mana efficiency. SDT to me is not a mana efficient card (there is one caveat to that and it’s basically when we are talking about net mana utilization over the course of a game, basically unused mana is not efficient so top provides and outlet for that) it’s just a more powerful card then Guile is because it just does more and reaches more cards in the mid and late games. Guile is more efficient to me because the net mana investment is less, and it doesn’t require any more investment. Even your Zombardment list is mana hungry, its 4c, lots of different casting costs up and down the curve (even more in the sideboard) and there is the Crawlers loops etc. I am not saying SDT is wrong, it might be just what you need with Bob, I would of just tried the second Guile first. Although he Green for the Guile is a big deal.

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Top isn't for confidant, it's for reachability particularly in grindier matchups. My deck doesn't really rush grindy decks, it outgrinds them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rampart

@Seal and Storm:
LOL so the seals actually were not for Counter/Top. I mostly play online now and I was running into a lot of Leyline of the Void (Coming out of Shardless, 4c Loam, Eldrazi, etc) which is just a giant beating for the version I am playing with so I needed to do something and seal is what I decided on. I am actually down to just one seal now, which has been working out well.

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Is Miracles not a concerning matchup?

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Originally Posted by Rampart

So I am 13-2 against ANT (which feels high but thats what happened on Modo). I can kill on turn 4-5 with disruption pretty easily and between the 4 Therapys and the 4 Entombs to get additional Therapys If can generally slow them down to the point I cast about 5 of the them in a game where they don’t just kill me on turn two and the matchup gets better after sideboard. My matchups are slightly worse against the other faster storm/combo decks but still positive. The biggest problem I have had on the Combo side of the format is Reanimator. I mostly see the B/R version which just put a dork in play on turn one or two most of the time which is just too fast for me to interact with and they are more resilient that I first thought. So I have had to add an additional Surgical and a Pithing needle which has made it better.

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I see- the Entombs improve the hand disruption consistency considerably.

I'm a bit surprised no one has brought up the new cards in Eldritch Moon, namely Cryptbreaker, Dark Salvation and Cemetery Recruitment. I'm not overly familiar with Zombardment, and I assume, in classic legacy fashion, that these new cards are not powerful enough to warrant inclusion, but are they so weak as to not even warrant closer scrutiny?

Has anyone discussed the card "Contamination" for this deck? For me this card is broken! what experiences did you have with it ?

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Originally Posted by Vicar in a tutu

I'm a bit surprised no one has brought up the new cards in Eldritch Moon, namely Cryptbreaker, Dark Salvation and Cemetery Recruitment. I'm not overly familiar with Zombardment, and I assume, in classic legacy fashion, that these new cards are not powerful enough to warrant inclusion, but are they so weak as to not even warrant closer scrutiny?

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This deck epitomizes the synergy vs. goodstuff tension that exists in Legacy right now. The synergy between these cards is strong, but the payoff isn't as high as just running goodstuff. New cards with synergy are released all the time, but they don't raise the power level significantly enough.

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Originally Posted by maharis

This deck epitomizes the synergy vs. goodstuff tension that exists in Legacy right now. The synergy between these cards is strong, but the payoff isn't as high as just running goodstuff. New cards with synergy are released all the time, but they don't raise the power level significantly enough.

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i would be surprised if cryptbreaker didn't see play. prob not a 4 of, but is a must kill in an attrition match.

Contamination looks good (though less debilitating than Blood Moon). Contamination + Crawler & Bombard seems fun :)

Agree that Cryptbreaker may be worth testing.
Dark Salvation... make 1-2 2/2's & give a creature -1/-1 or -2/-2 is a lot of value from a card, but 3 or 5 mana.
Cemetary Recruitment is like Life from the Loam without dredge. I don't think Recruitment works with other cards in a considerable way. Imagine trying to play around a Deathrite, ughhh

Does anyone think Grim Flayer could have a place in this deck? It wouldn't be too hard to get delerium on line with the bridges, he puts stuff we want in the graveyard and helps with the top of our deck, he can beat down pretty well, and he plays nice with bob for the decks that run him.