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Hello everybody
I have a question, if I replace Azami, Lady of Scrolls by Alchemist's Apprentice would have a problem?
Original pieces combo:
http://i.imgur.com/rR0DB3O.jpg http://i.imgur.com/oQebzK5.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/GxvDlhK.jpg
Altered pieces combo:
http://i.imgur.com/rR0DB3O.jpg http://i.imgur.com/oQebzK5.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/G0C1Iie.jpg
Well, Azami lets you still win immediately if you get Stifled once.
Also, the bigger concern is if someone kills your Lab Maniac in response to the draw ability - again Azami lets you win in response, but the Apprentice does not.
The way is continue in the search by azami :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by Esper3k
This threat is pretty dead for the moment. Is nobody working anymore on this deck? I'm planning on taking the deck out again to a tournament this weekend. Maybe with an update, maybe not.
There's quite a bit being said about it over on Salvation. If you're looking for people working on it, that's the place to currently check.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darklingske
Ran into this deck in my most recent local tournament on March 2nd. The guy came in 3rd place (I came in 2nd.) I was playing Junk/Rock and he couldn't overcome my discard, not with such a high critical mass of cards needed to combo out.
It's important to note that this deck has a *very hard* time winning against a Leyline of the Void. What are folks playing in the sideboard do deal with it? I would imagine that the best option would be Chain of Vapor or something similarly cheap, causing you do only need an additional mana on the combo turn.
Chain of Vapors or Natures Claim. Probably both. I have heard running Leyline of Sanctity vs Heavy discard decks is good choice (Like it would have been against yours).Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
I still don't know whether running a transformation sideboard or a reactionary sideboard is the better decision. I'd say the belcher transform fairs pretty poorly against some with discard but can take the graveyard hate by surprise.
Azami gets around a singular Swords to Plowshares, Lightning Bolt, Stifle, Abrupt Decay, etc. etc because you get a second chance to tap and draw a card because both lab maniac and azami are wizards.Quote:
Originally Posted by dropsaway
Okay, thanks! didn't check that forum, but will do now :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackout-Comix
Finally got around to experimenting with a few ideas today:
1. Grim monolith is actually pretty good at being cabal ritual 5-8. I wouldn't run 4 though...
2. Fiend hunter in the sb is pretty important to reduce the number of combo pieces (more on this below)
3. Pact of negation in the sb may be viable even in living wish builds (i.e. -4 living wish, -4 LED, +1 balustrade spy, +4 pact of negation, +3 chancellor of the annex)
4. City of traitors can be decent in the wish board for opening hands of chrome mox and/or chancellor of the tangle.
To improve this deck, I think it's a good idea to compare it against belcher and see how it falls short. Here are the major problems in my opinion in order of importance.
1. The number of dead combo pieces need to be trimmed. At a minimum, there are 9 dead cards: 4 narc, 1 cabal therapy, 1 dread return, 3 kill-cons. I had 3 cabal therapies in my previous build and 3-2 narc/bridge split. I now think this is incorrect.
2. The mana base. Belcher relies predominantly on red mana sources and takes better advantage of LED than we do (burning wish/belcher activation). Black mana is very difficult to generate sometimes in this deck. I've seen some people on salvation tinkering with rite of flame and I think they're wasting their time.
3. Gy hate. Self explanatory but not much we can do about it. Just need to fix 1 and 2 above.
So I took this to a local tournament the other night:
4 Balustrade Spy
4 Undercity Informer
4 Street Wraith
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Wild Cantor
3 Narcomoeba
1 Azami
1 Lab Maniac
1 Angel/Glory's Rise
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Manamorphose
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Summoner's Pact
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Dread Return
2 Bridge from Below
SB
1 Narcomoeba
4 Pact of Negation
1 Autumn's Veil
3 Leyline of Lifeforce
2 Chancellor of the Annex
2 Nature's Claim
2 Leyline of Sanctity
I know this is basically the Prosak list, but with the 3/2 Narco Bridge split and some changes in side. I've played with the LED/Living Wish package, but with mixed results. Basically I wanted to try it out in its 'original' form to see if I could do any better. I went 4-0, winning the tourney, but this comes with a pretty serious asterisk. Only one deck I played against would be what I consider a real challenge to the deck, especially in G1 (after that, any deck can hate this deck out): UW Rest in Peace/Helm. So I’m taking this result with a grain of salt.
I’m pretty new to combo decks and I wanted to build this deck to test the waters with combo. It’s cheap to build, having no duals or fetches, and it’s quirky and fast, which appeal to me. That being said, please be patient with me and any match mistakes that I may have committed.
Anyway, I didn’t take notes during the tourney, but I do remember a few things that happened.
Round 1: Affinity
G1: I go off turn 1, no problem
G2: I don’t side anything in, completely missing the fact that it’s very likely he has cage, and that would really mess up my day. I guess I was arrogant and figured the speed of the deck would be enough to overcome. Yeah, well he puts out first turn cage. Since I didn’t side anything in, I just cast Summoner’s Pact and passed. No sense in dragging it out after a dumb mistake.
G3: I side in Nature’s claims. Doesn’t matter as I go off again first turn with no response from him. Later he shows me an Annul he had in hand to counter a petal or LED, but no mana to cast. Lucky.
Round 2: UW RIP Helm
G1: Win the dice roll, go off turn 1
G2: I know what’s he’s on, so I side in Pacts. Doesn’t matter though, he plays RIP. I had kept a decent, but not great hand and I was unable to go off, probably til the 3rd turn or so. As soon as I saw the RIP, I just cast summoner’s pact and pass. I don’t know the deck too well, but I know the chances of him finding a helm with protection is much better than me finding an answer to the RIP at all, much less with protection.
G3: I go off turn 1 again, with Pact protection. This turned out to be unnecessary, as he had no Force in hand. Personally, I would’ve mulled til I had one in hand, but that’s me.
I have no illusions about this matchup. I firmly believe that 9 times out of 10, that decks beats me, with or without hate. It’s just so hard to overcome Forces and the like. But that’s the risk you run.
Round 3: Burn
G1: Go off 2nd turn, I think.
G2: I keep a slower hand, thinking my speed should be able to overcome him. Burn is fast, but not that fast, and I don’t care about my life total. He gets me down to 10, but I pull it out. He tried some burn on my narcomoebas, which might have worked, since I had a bridge and a narc in my hand when I went off. But having a spy in play made the difference.
Round 4: Zoo
G1: Go off 2nd turn again.
G2: Go off 1st turn. He had played a mountain, which he left untapped. I was worried about some type of burn shenanigans, which turned out to be unfounded. He had sided in 2 Tormod’s Crypts and 2 Relic of Progenitus, which he never saw. Again, lucky.
This tournament was more or less for fun (we buy in every other week for packs), but it did give me some valuable experience with the deck. I had tried the LED/Wish package in previous tourneys there, but only going 2-2. I hate to put much weight behind this result, as I don’t think everyone was playing to full potential, but it was a nice shot in the arm to the deck, which I have a lot more confidence in.
A few notes about my sideboard. Pacts are a must. They’re really the best protection we can ask for. The leylines of lifeforce I think are useful, but only as support. I may end up dropping them eventually. I’ve tried the Chancellor of the Annexes, but I can’t say I love them. I think having 4 leyline of sanctity would just be better. They’re both for protection against discard, and both are dead draws after the opening hand. I feel that sanctity covers more bases, but I could be wrong. Nature’s Claim is great, I’d like to go to 4, possibly with some Chain of Vapors also. I haven’t used Autumn’s Veil yet, it seems good, at least on paper. I like having the fourth narc in side against decks with burn or removal of any kind. It increases the chances of getting 3 or more flipped when we go off, without having to resort to Cabal Therapy to clean our hand up when it would better be used against the opponent. Also, I’m liking the Street Wraith/Gitaxian Probe build for the simple fact that they make the decision of what to side out that much easier, without messing with the flow of the deck. This was always difficult for me when running LED/Wish, but I definitely see the argument for not running them, as they do make mulligan decisions more difficult.
Overall, I hope this helps a little. Like I said, I made some mistakes and there is definitely a learning curve to a ’new’ combo player like myself. I had a lot of fun playing the deck and I see a lot of potential here. Thanks to everyone for reading and being patient with a bad player.
Also: I’d like to make a suggestion for the deck name: Captain Trips. I’m a fan of Stephen King, and the deck just kinda reminded me of the superflu from The Stand because it kills so fast and does nothing if you’re immune (kinda like when you mulligan into oblivion, or the opponent has protection). Just my two cents.
4 Undercity InformerQuote:
Originally Posted by TheSobe33
3 Balustrade Spy
4 Living Wish
4 Chancellor of the Tangle
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Summoner's Pact
1 Wild Cantor
1 Deathrite Shaman
2 Grim Monolith
1 Cabal Therapy
4 Narcomoeba
1 Dread Return
1 Angel of Glory's Rise
1 Azami, Lady of Scrolls
1 Laboratory Maniac
Sideboard
1 Balustrade Spy
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Swamp
1 Ebon Stronghold
1 City of Traitors
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Fiend Hunter
4 Chancellor of the Annex
3 Goblin Charbelcher
That's the most evolved wish version that I've played with. Have you tried Ebon Stronghold and City of Traitors in your wishboard for the living wish/LED build? They really add a lot. They turn living wish into wild cantors 6-9 while serving as ramp with chrome mox. Saving mana from tangle in what would otherwise be a mullligan hand is very important too. I'm still skeptical about Prosak's list because of the high probability of mulligans. Leyline of lifeforce hasn't been that impressive in my testing because good players will just counter your mana instead. I like chancellor of the annex because of its ability to stop t1 deathrite shaman, cage, spellbomb etc. Rather than having reactionary cards like autumn's veil and nature's claim, I'd rather just side out 4 wishes for 1 spy and 3 charbelchers to sidestep the gy hate if it's really unbeatable. Probe and wraith make mulligan decisions much harder so I don't think they're a good idea. You didn't face any deck with discard so I think the sample size is not consistent with the meta-game right now. Let me know if you have continued success after more testing.
Edit: Peat bog combines the benefits of city of traitors and ebon stronghold to save 1 sb slot.
Nudon i'm planning to play your list do you have a side table ?
i'm wondering when you board in belcher etc
Fiend hunter comes in for azami and laboratory maniac against decks without emrakul or progenitus in order to reduce the number of dead cards. Charbelchers will usually come in game 3 if they had leyline of the void or faerie macabre game 2 since there's not much we can do about those cards. I would remove the living wishes for them. I haven't really figured out the sideboard plan yet aside from the wish targets but chancellor of the annex will usually come in for chancellor of the tangle. Against counter magic, it might be correct to bring in belchers too. Hope this helps!Quote:
Originally Posted by P-E
Been back to testing this this week, and I should have some more suggestions for folks next week. Nudon, keep up the great work. I hope my list will give you some food for thought...
I'm really happy with my list (which I'll publish for free on EC), but I'm sure, oddly enough, I enjoy playing the archetype.
Thanks, I look forward to checking out your list once you test and write about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Smmenen
Joined The Source just to comment and discuss this deck. Cuz it's awesome.
Why not, in the tradition of weird deck names, call this "Snow Combo"? ---> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtILxBszyf8
Heading to a Legacy event next week, will post results. It's more fun than UR Delver or Tide lately.
I agree with a lot of what Stephen has to say in his article. He summarizes all of the key aspects/issues to take into account when trying to make this deck work. Thanks!Quote:
Originally Posted by Smmenen
I ran that list through my program to try 5000 hands. It has a turn 1 winrate of about 29%. I don't know how relevant you find this. The deck is clearly geared toward wins on later turns too.