Although to be honest, the most common path to victory is concession. People tend to assume that somewhere in all the infinite shenanigans you have some way of killing them.
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Although to be honest, the most common path to victory is concession. People tend to assume that somewhere in all the infinite shenanigans you have some way of killing them.
Hahahahah!!!!!
I have won some game because of:
"ok,ok, so you do the combo thing..
-Yes, (although my win condition has been RFG....) yes...
-okay, yours... next game.."
I used to play the auriok+maggot, but after reading some posts and comments, I see the point in Spike feeder, one more free slot, nobody names it with a needle, and if they do... foolish plan, then there is no problem in giving turn, since they way you give it, it's a win: 3 Fow + 3 blue cards + any card.
The only problem could be when time ends and you have 5 turns...
Turning back to the deck, i think I'll cut the 2 CoT and replace them with a basic forest and another land. Replace also the Proctor with an Uktabi orangutan/viridian shaman (unaffected by chalice@2 and hardcastable, but not pitchable to Fow).
And the damned sideboard:
1x Imperial Recruiter (you get this 9 of every 10 wishes)
1x Eternal Witness (sh*t happens and this lady has saved me from hell a couple of times, maybe not so useful after many changes in the deck)
1x Bone Shredder (kill the mage, kill Gaddok, similar to Man-o'-war, arguable... of course)
1x City of Traitors/whatever land... or a critter, just something that helps¿?
3x Pernicious Deed (Stax is almost an autolose game, I think these bombs can help, just to mention one pairing)
3x Extirpate (too many sweet things to remove... cabal therapy + extirpate can be painful)
2/3x Duress (more discard but I don't know if we really need it)
2/3x Research/Development (I added these because of "Extirpate ->Aluren", something BW Pikula does, and could BGW Rock too.. I do not have Tarmogoyfs right now so I do not have a B plan...)
Please, some thoughts about sideboard?
Its not actually instant unless Etched Oracle is already in play. Once Oracle is in play, you use Spike Feeder to put counters on him and deck your opponent without having to pass the turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Lundquist
When someone actually looses a game after going off for infinite life, twenty 3000/3000 creatures, and 20 force of wills, then we can talk about an instant win condition. Until then, just run spike feeder and enjoy the extra slot.
Just run tarmogoyf. If you have tested at all, you would realize how much better goyf is than a wall.
Someone asked me for a list, so this is what i would run:
2 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Polluted Delta
2 Island
5 Forest
4 Tropical Island
3 Bayou
4 Aluren
1 Spike Feeder
4 Raven Familiar
2 Cavern Harpy
3 Man-o-War
1 Dream Stalker
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Wall of Blossoms
1 Wall of roots
4 Brainstorm
3 Intuition
2 Chain of Vapor
4 Force of Will
3 Cabal Therapy
Sideboard:
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Divert
4 Extirpate
3 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Cabal Therapy
I just have a few things to say about my list. First, the mana base is the most solid i have found. I think 2 islands is a must, as a good portion of the deck needs blue to function. The mana-base is aimed at performing under waste-lock, and blood moon as best as possible.
I play blossoms over roots for a couple reasons. If you play right, the only thing that should hurt your mana-base is sinkholes + wastes + vindicate. There are decks that play that, but thats where FoW, therapy, and divert come in. Blossoms allows you to draw into your combo pieces, or stall pieces while stalling itself. That 1 card can be the difference in the game. Also, you can go off necropotence style with man-o-war, harpy, and blossoms. Also, CoV with familiar, and wall is pretty sick. Make sure to play atleast 1 wall of roots, because spike feeder needs mana to pump your creatures.
The lone Dream Stalker is there to play around pernicious deed / bounce lands to reuse / be a wall. I might cut a man-o-war for a 3rd harpy, if i do that then dream stalker would have to be a man-o-war. So, i'm thinking about:
3 harpy
3 man-o-war
0 dream stalker
For the sideboard, deed is there for when you need it. Extirpate helps your combo MU, as well as loam, ichorid, waste-lock, control. BEB against blood-moon decks, combo, gobbos. The 4th therapy for control / combo. The diverts are for discard, sinkhole, counterspells (i play aluren, they counterspell, i divert counterspell to target divert, aluren resolves).
You might want grips in the board
can we split this forum into imperial recruiter version and non-imperial recruiter versions of aluren? They play totally different, we have different threads for different colors of thresh...
In the imperial recruiter version, isn't having infinite life good enough?
Using Auriok Champion and Maggot Carrier, I am wondering if jsut Auriok Champion is needed, You can gain life and then wait for a living wish for carrier or just beat down (having harpy and stalker out means you can attack every turn and then bounce them all and then play them all again so they are really hard to kill) the only problem with not playing carrier is time concerns, because you will most likely win, it will just take awhile.
What decks can beat a deck with infinite life?
Agreed with the topic split.
About the list, the only thing I'd change right now is -1 Dream Stalker +1 Wall of Blossoms, and possibly find room for 1 Swamp if Wasteland is everywhere. Do you miss any artifact or enchantment specific removal?
I'm trying Stifle in the sideboard. If I get any relevant results I'll post them.
stifle? what is stifle for? I would go with engineered explosives if you are trying to go against combo, because it is relevant other places, and usually if they are fast enough to go off it is through ETW tokens, Getting up to storm count ten is a lot harder, and usually they storm 5 make tokens and 10 you til your dead.
in this vain, are there any creatures that kill ETW tokens for less than four mana?
There is Plague Spitter and Crypt Rats (both probably still too slow) or if you are red the bad-ass Bloodfire Dwarf.Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy I Don't Know
edit: another interesting (if janky) option is Festercreep, especially for people already playing Feeder.
edit2: facing an army of angry goblins it's a pretty safe bet Death's-Head Buzzard will need to do some blocking and die a vengefully death.
Necroplasm looks faster and can do some tricks with Spike Feeder.
I'm trying Stifle just to see if it's any good as a sort of disruption. No one plays Empty the Warrens around here but if someone does I run Pernicious Deed MD. Anyway I'm taking Engineered Explosives into account. Thanks for pointing that.
necroplasm seems like the best, totally forgot about that card. You can even intuition/living wish for it and it comes back
Hmm Pernicious Deed maindeck... That card seems pretty good, I have two slots open maindeck and considering duress, EE, or Deed. Deed can be a little slower
Heres the specs:
for Deed
0 CC 3 mana
1 CC 4 mana
2 CC 5 mana
3 CC 6 mana
4 CC 7 mana
for EE
0 CC 2 mana
1 CC 3 mana
2 CC 4 mana
3 CC 5 mana
The benefit for deeds is that decks that run multiple threats such as trinisphere and chalice of the void, it is better against. It is also better vs goblins in theory cuz it kills all the creatures. and can kill 4+ CC permanents. also it can kill lands.
EE on the other hand, Can evade counterbalance, while still blowing it up, is 1 mana cheaper, and is fast enough vs ETW. If the opponent makes 10+ guys turn 1 on the play, then Deed is too slow, while EE can destroy them still.
I have found that aluren has such a good late game vs any deck that plays to the late game that the deeds or EE may not be needed, if it is losing, it usually loses to quik combo, or disruptive permanents. Duress is good vs both of these options.
Wouldn't Thoughtseize be strictly better since it can hit Magus of the Moon, Vexing Shusher, Xantid Swarm, Painter, ...
I am playing the a version similar to the ones that did well at worlds, with recruiters and four thoughtseiz already.
Not on color but maybe orzhov pontiff?Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy I Don't Know
Card type: Creature
Creature type: Human Cleric
Power/Toughness:1/1
Casting cost: 1BW
Card text: Haunt (When this card is put into a graveyard from play, remove it from the game haunting target creature.)
When Orzhov Pontiff comes into play or the creature it haunts is put into a graveyard, choose one - creatures you control get +1/+1 until end of turn; or creatures you don’t control get -1/-1 until end of turn.
I agree with the split issue of the topic, anyway...
I went to a tournament last Sunday, only 17 people attended so it cannot be considered a real battlefield, but just for reference I played against Cephalid (losed 0-2), Landstill (won 2-0), Ichorid (won 2-1), Thresh (with the swann combo, Won 2-0) and then got enough points for the top8, where I met the same Cephalid, this time I won 2-1, then semifinals against the ichorid, won 2-0 and final against Survival, where I could have won, but a mixture of stupidity and bad luck made me end with 1-2.
I managed to pack in a playset of Tarmogoyfs and... they rool!!!
I'm addicted now to those green folks, they put pressure like nobody else, and helped me winning in quarterfinals beatdown mode and some other games. With Walls, this could never happen... As I play Rec. version, and as others state, the deck acts in a little different way, but I would even change the mana base and try something like Honz has commented. Had I met Stax in Swiss rounds, I would have suffer a lot.
My mana base right now is:
4x Polluted Delta
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Forest
3x Island
2x Swamp
2x Tropical Island
1x Bayou
1x Taiga
I usually want to play my basics firstly and then, if possible, drop the tropicals, I suppose non-recruiter goes the same way. As said in other posts, still need more testing. I've been playing this deck for only a couple of months, and there are people here who have played aluren for years, they will agree with me (i agree with them is more correct) in the power and stability that this deck has. I have made 3 consecutive finals in small local tournaments and if I had tested more, I would have won any of them (it's me the crap, not the deck :P ). This deck is possibly one of the best underplayed decks of the format, and needs knowledge about the stack and its own tricks. I am still discovering some amazing thigns the deck can do.
About sideboard, I used:
1x Imperial Rec.
1x Bone Shredder (needed it only a couple of times)
1x Eternal Witness (think I never needed her... maybe I'll cut it)
3x Divert (funny to misdirect opponent therapies, they helped)
3x Duress (used them only one time)
3x Pernicious Deed (helped a lot, one of the things i'll probably never cut)
3x Extirpate (one the most evil cards ever printed, I love them!)
What do you usually side in-out, guys? and one last thing, can Faerie Macabre see play in the deck/ SB?
I was looking at your deck to see what you would side out , and saw that you only play 21 lands and not 4 wall of roots... how do you get four mana!!! I play 22 lands and four walls, and am considering it to be on the light side. Plus what is the reason for the second harpy? Ok, i guess if you want to run raven familiar you can, (i don't) but that second harpy is practically useless in this version, except letting you pitch one to FOW. I guess what I am trying to say is that your deck looks really janky IMHO and I am wondering what some of the card choices are for. Also, maindeck, viridian shaman is so much more versatile that it is worth having less blue cards in the deck to play it over stern proctor. Also, why play FOW? I know it is a good card, but do you realize that it gives you card disadvantage? FOW is only good in a deck that plays insignificant blue cards like brainstorm, ponder, stifle, etc. that it doesnt matter that you are pitching a card. Look at Thresh for example, the situational counterspells and cantrips are prime cards to pitch to FOW. In Aluren Fow is either pitching a tutor like intuition, brainstorm or a creature needed to combo. All the other cards are there to support FOW and are otherwise subpar. Chain of vapor for example is only really good vs certain decks that play CotV, Trinisphere, Humility, etc. and otherwise piss poor fodder to FOW. Why not play thoughtseize, and instead of a second blue card needed to be pitched to FOW, you pay one mana and one life? This also eliminates shackles on the deck to support FOW and lets you play less blue cards. If anything I would play FOW in the sideboard against combo where it really shines. If you want to play FOW play the non imperial recruiter version because that is where it is really good against. and btw this forum needs to be split, badly.
Mana base wise, how do you play your spells? with so many basics you are losing turns to manascrew that you could be going off. But if it works for you good for you. I think if you are going to play so many few lands than it is good you are playing basics.
And about aluren being good, yes, it is good versus any deck that tries to play magic. It has a week spot for decks like burn and TES that have no interaction. The reason it is not played more is that people cant get the cards. This deck plays duals, thoughtseizes goyfs, recruiters, fetches, all the expensive cards so basically you need to have been playing thresh and then somehow picked up some recruiters.
For what to sideboard, that is hard because you have some unusual sb choices. What decks were you wondering on how to sideboard?
I was looking into faerie macabre as a sideboard wish target and every time i played it, it seemed underpowered. You can try it but it did not work for me.
Honestly Leyline of the Void is such a good Antigraveyard card, i can't see playing it over any other graveyard card in an open environment. While other cards are good vs certain decks, Leyline is decent or the best sb graveyard card usually. For instance against aggro loam, it can prevent goyf, vore, and crusher from getting big, while shutting of loam and wasteland recursion. compared to extirpate that gets rid of life from the loam, this is not the same.
I took out the proctor before the tournament, shaman works fine.
I had no problems getting 4 mana into the table, but I'd prefer having 22 lands instead of 21... Wall of roots: I kept one and added Tarmogoyf, as the mana base is stable, believe it or not, I buy time by playing the goyfs, and as i said, had no problems in getting the four manas...
The second harpy is, as you guessed, for pitching in an emergency case, I had to pitch my lonely harpy sometimes and it screwed me.
FoW is card disadvantage or stopping an opponent's bomb. You will not always have the Chain of Vapor in hand so as to bounce disgusting things, sometimes they go first and you have your nice thoughtseizes doing nothing, that's card disadvantage! I really prefer having 3 fow not to counter everything, but to stop THE card which is preventing me from winning. I played the thoughtseize version and the fow version and sometimes Seizes are not enough...And Chain of Vapor is not used only to bounce opp's things, you can bounce your critters too...
As I imagine, you are playing the 3-4 therapy + 3-4 thoughtseize version. IMHO there is a misunderstanding of the deck. Playing so aggresively does not improve the deck's performance. You cannot run as fast as other decks, although I think that rec. version is a little faster than the other one. I started playing that too, but my local meta differs from the one that usually meets Koizumi, the japanese guy who made several top8s with that version. I don't say seizes are bad, on the contrary, they are really good, but the situations i usually find here made me took them out and add the fows in.
I also found that replacing wall of blossoms for raven familiar made the deck less dependant to the recruiter engine, although it's the axis of the deck. It's pitchable, helps you digging, evades chalices @2....therefore I am playing some kind of hybrid deck.
Basic lands are a must! I'd like to see your list, friend! Play no basics and get paired to a Dragon Stompy.. Let's see what happens if they play turn 1 Magus or Moon...and of course, without Fow...Losing to such things is unaffordable, if you go first and are able to take their magus, ok. But I don't like luck playing such an important role in the deck.
About Leylines, I've been using them for a long time and they work great, but I gave a try to the Extirpates and they also worked fine. I agree leylines are bomb against ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, loam, waste-lock, also Ichorid...anyway, both are okay, BUT leylines force you to mulligan in search of the opening hand with it. Both cards are good, but sometimes one has to choose...
Maybe the thread shoul be splitted into the raven+harpy version, the recruiter version and maybe some hybrid, but i think I'm the only geek doing this at the moment...
I've been testing a build with both Familiar and Recruiter. I see this as a superior alternative to running Living Wish, and it baffles me to see that you run all three of these cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Davetradint
Here's my list:
//16
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
3x Cabal Therapy
3x Intuition
2x Chain of Vapor
//4
4x Aluren
//7
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Wall of Blossoms
1x Wall of Roots
//12
4x Imperial Recruiter
2x Dream Stalker
2x Raven Familiar
1x Man-o-War
1x Cavern Harpy
1x Eternal Witness
1x Spike Feeder
//21
4x Wooded Foothills
3x Polluted Delta
1x Windswept Heath
3x Tropical Island
3x Bayou
2x Taiga
3x Forest
1x Island
Basically, it's Toad's old list, replacing four Walls with Tarmogoyfs, and replacing two Harpies and two Familiars with Recruiters. It's certainly possible to cut the Famliars entirely, in order to fit in more (less mana-intensive) search, or more Walls, or something else that would help the deck survive prior to going off.
Why, again, should the topic to be split? Adding Recruiter doesn't change the deck's strategy at all.
Are the four Recruiters really necessary? I've seen some lists run three and the extra Harpy. They do, however, give you consistency as a tutor effect.
I've been toying with Gravelgill Duo and Cavern Harpy in an Aluren shell. It's not really optimized but it is a three card combo (Aluren/Gravelgill Duo/Cavern Harpy) gives you an infinite beater with fear at the cost of nothing additional as it's going off.
The problem is it's a two turn process. Turn one of the process you drop Aluren during your turn and Gravelgill Duo at the end of theirs and then turn two you just keep playing the Cavern Harpy and bouncing it back to your hand until the Gravelgill Duo is big enough to kill.
Then why not use Spike Feeder to put infinite +1/+1 counters on a creature with evasion if you are that worried about a blocker. Once you go off, you win except in extreme cases. Adding this card to the maindeck does not help your plan with Aluren or without it. Aluren still has problems with winning when you can't get Aluren on the table and playing another crappy creature (without going off) is not going to help that. This is why people have went to Tarmogoyf.Quote:
I've been toying with Gravelgill Duo and Cavern Harpy in an Aluren shell. It's not really optimized but it is a three card combo (Aluren/Gravelgill Duo/Cavern Harpy) gives you an infinite beater with fear at the cost of nothing additional as it's going off.
I really don't feel that this thread should not be split between the recruiter and non-recruiter builds. I don't see how it would stimulate discussion about either version.