Need? I dunno about need. He has one in the main after all. Cutting the force in board for it doesn't sound terrible though.Quote:
Originally Posted by KobeBryan
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Need? I dunno about need. He has one in the main after all. Cutting the force in board for it doesn't sound terrible though.Quote:
Originally Posted by KobeBryan
Intuition for cunning wish has been my target 80% of the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tammit67
And 90% of the time Wish -> FF -> Intuition is as good. This has been said, like, at 3 different points in the thread.
Is Impulse really that worse than cutting the SB Trickbind? I understand that you can still FF your main deck Trickbind. I also love that singleton Flusterstorm.
So it's like 1 Flusterstorm vs 4th Dreamhalls for the Emrakul slot. Thoughts?
I am currently playing the BOM 1st place version but I fear getting discarded then Surgical'd on my Cunning Wish which leaves me with 0 Win cons. Emrakul is also badly needed against Maverick and hatebears.
Thanks! I was just curious on your reasoning for the one-of Thoughtseize.Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
@Pyroman: You can always run a discard package like Emidln's to preemptively deal with Flusterstorms.
It's not like that, Flusterstorm is in the slot of the 4th Force of Will which has been moved to the SB for access cia CWish. I don't think the slots "4th DreamHalls" vs. "Emrakul" are comparable. Emidln's build is maximum redundancy which I really enjoy, it even trumps UR Omnitell in that regard for my feeling while being much more resilient to hate.Quote:
Originally Posted by blindspotxxx
The likelyness of these two things happening are not as high, although I must admit that I have lost to an Extirpate once because I suck (seriously, ditching the SnT to Smallpox was the most stupid thing ever).Quote:
I am currently playing the BOM 1st place version but I fear getting discarded then Surgical'd on my Cunning Wish which leaves me with 0 Win cons. Emrakul is also badly needed against Maverick and hatebears.
Anyway, if someone manages to do that against you, you simply have to accept your defeat. But it's not like you have LLoS in your board to protect yourself against that. Playing your Brainstorms defensively also helps big time. As long as you don't get your CWishs or EtIs extracted, you can still win.
Last tournament also changed my mind about LLoS because I played against BRG Nic Fit (a kind of modern Scapeshift ported to Legacy with Deeds, Cabal Therapy, Burning Wish) which ran Slaughter Games in the SB. Without Leyline, you are stone dead to that card.
However, there is nothing wrong with running Emrakul somewhere in your 75. I'd probably just do it like emidln and run one in the SB because a maindeck Emrakul is pretty useless. For one you are not running Release the Ants (and even if, Enter the Infinite is enough to win clashes against almost every deck except for SneakShow) and in addition it's highly anti-synergetic with Pact of Negation. You can cast Trickbind on the trigger next upkeep, but ehhh...
And well, somehow the metagame has become so fast and/or prepared that SnT -> Emme is the most unbroken thing you can do. I've seen guy doing SnT -> Emrakul just to get smashed by Natural Order -> Craterhoof or simply get walked over by 4 Gayfolk-Lords with Islandwalk. With the new legend rule it's getting even worse because the opposing Emrakul is going to attack you first.
He's only useful against Mav or DnT where you have to side out your Pacts anyway, so I think the best place in the 75 is in the board.
As for cutting the 4th FoW, I don't fully agree here. It's necessary. The existence of Belcher is enough reason for me. I find that matchup pretty painful actually because "Lion's Eye Diamond, go" absolutely blanks your Snow and Tells, at least if you don't have LLoS.
Furthermore, in matchups like DnT, I want to be able to board in my 4th FoW because Flusterstorm obv. can't hit Thalia, Canonist or Aether Vial.
Discardspells are excellent against Flusterstorms and are good for people that are afraid that Lab Maniac could get hit by Sudden Shock, but on the other hand they are worse against decks with discard strategies (Esper, DeathBlade, Jund, Pox).
This is really a question of your metagame, if Flusterstorms are all over the place, I believe blacksplash with Duress effects is the way to go. But in the dark, I'd probably carry Leylines with me (also good against Belcher for example).
The decks that play Flusterstorm are - with the exception of CanThresh - rather slow in terms of their clock.
So if they Flusterstorm a Show and Tell, you still have DreamHalls which cannot be countered by Fluster, but then again is prone to Spell Pierce.
You kinda have to see how to bait some stuff in these MUs, but overall I think they are fair. As I said, I'd have easily won against Canadian Thresh if I'd just have gone YOLO. The only issue are decks that are heavy on permanent-based hate (MUD, DnT, Maverick). They make me want to play 4 bouncespells in the slot of LLoS, that's how annoying they are.
But in the end you can't win them all.
Exactly why I am not running a SB Intuition or Trickbind. This frees up SB slots while still allowing for the Wish-FF-Intuition-EtI. I never have wanted to wish for an Intuition to set up the combo. Wasting two turns and exposing yourself to Surgical/Extirpate doesn't seem worth it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lejay
I have not tried out the discard package yet, but it should be excellent against flusterstorms. I will have to try it out. The swamp seems like a much better idea since it is not vulnerable to wasteland. I am not sure if I want to run a basic swamp in the board, but it seems much better than having one in the maindeck. It also seems like there would be issues getting the black on time since there are only 5 sources (4 fetches and the swamp).
First, I wanted to thank all the posters and work people have put into this deck, especially Lejay and Emidln!
I've been taking the deck for a spin and it's been a blast! I really enjoy the High Tide-esque feel of the deck where you just ignore your life total until you -have- to go off, then just kill your opponent (but without all the durdling that High Tide does).
I've played both Lejay and Emidln's lists so far and haven't found a huge difference so far in how the two builds fundamentally combo off.
I did have a question for Emidln's list, which is how to sideboard in certain matchups, especially regarding the blue tempo matches?
So far against decks like RUG, I've been boarding:
-3 Force of Will
-1 Trickbind (is it wrong to side this out since it leaves us 0 2-drops to get with FF? It seems so bad in the matchup...)
+1 Pact of Negation
+2 Duress
+1 Thoughtseize
+1 Swamp
-1 Island (again, I'm not certain this is correct since against those Stifle / mana taxing decks, every land matters)
I faced off against D&T and ended up 1-1 (3-3) so far and man, that matchup is rough. Hate bears + CIB effects = annoying. I had one game I lost where my opponent went (on the draw), T1: Cavern (on humans) -> Mother of Runes, T2: Thalia, T3: Karakas, Mangara. Ugh.
I haven't faced off against the BUG / Esper Deathblade decks that have heavier hand disruption and a light smattering of countermagic with Emidln's list and would also like some sideboarding tips if anyone has any (with Lejay's list, the sideboarding becomes much simpler against those discard decks due to the Leylines).
Thanks!
show and tell Kederekt Leviathan, game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Esper3k
It's kind of funny how terrible a suggestion that is. I guess you'll get a five point swing in before they untap with Mother of Ruins again. You do have four Show and Tells..Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce
Show and tell Plague Spitter?Quote:
Originally Posted by herbig
(•_•)
( •_•)>⌐■-■
(⌐■_■)
I'll show myself out.
I do the following against RUG:
-1 Trickbind
-1 Intuition
-2 Dream Halls
-1 Cunning Wish
+2 Duress
+1 Thoughtseize
+1 Swamp
+1 Pact of Negation
Intuition is too slow and they probably have Surgical Extraction anyway. Trickbind isn't useful against maybe 1-2 VClique. Dream Halls isn't what you want to be doing most of the time. Cunning Wish just isn't efficient as you don't get many turns, and running it out there for protection if you don't absolutely require the Flusterstorm opens you to REB + Surgical. Emrakul is arguable, but your best protection spell is Pact of Negation thus potentially leaving you in a very awkward situation for protecting SnT->Emrkaul.
Against black-based tempo, you actually sideboard differently. Discard means they can control whether Wish or Enter the Infinite wind up in the graveyard (thus exposed to Surgical/Extirpate). This makes Emrakul valuable enough to play (to keep you in win conditions). Also, with more discard, Pact isn't normally as good so you need to attempt to tease out the number of Snapcasters and Vendilion Cliques to guage how many you want. Something that is known is the number of Dream Halls sits firmly at 4 due to the opponent being able to pick apart your hand (and thus you needing the relative cheapness of Dream Halls (5 mana is castable) combined with its ability to cheat Enter the Infinite or Wish->Intuition->Enter the Infinite (possibly broken up over two turns if they're hitting you with a bunch of discard). My sideboarding here looks more like this:
-1 Trickbind
-1 Intuition
-1 Cunning Wish
-3 Force of Will
+2 Duress
+1 Thoughtseize
+1 Pact of Negation
+1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
+1 Swamp
Force of Will comes out as it is less efficient than Pact or Duress/Thoughtseize (overall, I'm +1 disruption spell from preboard, but my disruption spells are more efficient with my resources (cards in hand valued over 1 mana)). You won't be protecting SnT->Emrakul with Force, but you also probably don't really want to SnT->Emrakul unless you've already cast a discard spell due to them possibly playing liliana (on their turn) for the blow out.
That brings my protection postboard against RUG to this:
3 Force of Will
4 Pact of Negation
1 Flusterstorm
2 Duress
1 Thoughtseize
3 Cunning Wish->Flusterstorm
with 9 Fetch, Sea, and Swamp as my black sources.
My 75, for reference is this:
4 Show and Tell
4 Dream Halls
4 Omniscience
4 Enter the Infinite
4 Cunning Wish
1 Intuition
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
3 Force of Will
1 Flusterstorm
3 Pact of Negation
1 Trickbind
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Underground Sea
5 Island
2 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
SB: 1 Trickbind
SB: 1 Pact of Negation
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Wipe Away
SB: 1 Rushing River
SB: 1 Slaughter Pact
SB: 1 Firemind's Foresight
SB: 1 Swamp
SB: 1 Eladamri's Call
SB: 1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB: 1 Research / Development
SB: 1 Laboratory Maniac
I'm back home, just finished 2nd (4-1-0) in a local event, 26 people I believe.
Mono R Burn 2-1 (I kinda lost to a Pyrostatic Pillar despite LLoS in g2 because I did not board bounce/Emrakul and there were a few burnspells I didn't see coming like FLame Rift and Sulfuric Vortex)
Death & Taxes 2-1 (Emrakul = GOLD in this MU)
TES 0-2
UWr Miracles 2-0
Dredge 2-0 (performed fast SnTs in both g1 and 2, g2 protected with Leyline against Therapies)
The build was the same as always, except that I cut the SB Intuition and the Surgical Extraction (I never needed that one ever) for Emrakul and Eladamri's Call.
I must say, Emrakul is very nice as a quasi-3rd bouncespell against decks that are heavy on permanent-based hate. And it kinda gives you another broken permanent to put into play against certain MUs (I also brought it in against Miracles because it's the easiest way to win against CBalance).
Against TES I felt kinda helpless, all I have postboard is 4 Force of Will and 1 Flusterstorm. However, I did not consequently mull to LLoS, so maybe that was the mistake (most likely, I kinda noticed that after getting hit by Cabal Therapy AND Orim's Chant g2).
So in terms of popularity, is this deck now more popular in large tournaments than Sneak and Show??
as of this last month.... but if the deck stays in this DTB section for a long time then we'll see if it becomes more popular.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7
Curious to see how it will develop. If you take the old omnisho as reference. When it came out it was a lot more popular/successful then this version. But then surprisingly it got pushed back by sneak attack again.
@emidln: Thanks for the information! I notice that you board out Intuition/Trickbind against the tempo decks since it is slower. Do you find that you ever miss them at all when using Firemind's Foresight or are you finding that you very rarely look for FF at all? So far, FF isn't something that I have normally been wishing for but conversely, I haven't been playing against decks that use a lot of CIB triggered abilities to fight Show & Tell (which I assume is where FF really shines).
Played this list at the Philadelphia Legacy Series at Top Deck. Went 3-3. :-/
3 City of Traitors
10 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Pact of Negation
4 Brainstorm
1 Flusterstorm
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
1 Impulse
3 Cunning Wish
4 Show and Tell
1 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Dream Halls
4 Force of Will
4 Omniscience
4 Enter the Infinite
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Sideboard:
1 Pact of Negation
1 Flusterstorm
1 Noxious Revival
1 Sapphire Charm
2 Defense Grid
1 Eladamri's Call
1 Release the Ants
1 Trickbind
1 Intuition
1 Rushing River
3 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Firemind's Foresight
Matchups:
Round 1: BUG Walkers 0-2. Turn 2 Lily in Game 1, and double discard after a mull to 6 in G2 (not finding a leyline) was too much to overcome. 0-1
Round 2: Deathblade 2-0. Found the combo quickly, and in Game 2 had a Leyline in hand which was awesome against his mull into discard. Not much to report...released the ants. 1-1
Round 3: Dark Maverick 2-0. Beat an Aven Mindcensor in Game 1, and in Game 2, Forced the Mindcensor, and was able to EOT Cunning wish for Sapphire Charm to phase out Teeg, Untap, and Omniscience, Omniscience (to get around pridemage), and Enter the Infinite for game. 2-1
Round 4: Reanimator 0-2. Paired up into the reanimator matchup....yuck! I don't think this is a winnable matchup, and not worth going into detail....basically reanimator is faster, with more counters and even if I can Show and Tell, he can just drop Griselbrand and draw 14 to counter Enter the Infinite. By playing this deck I know I am dead to Reanimator decks, and it was brutal getting paired up into it to be kicked from contention. Oh well. Notably piloted by Seth Zulinski, who top 2'd SCG Philly and top 16'd SCG Baltimore with the same reanimator list. He's also killing it in the Wednesday legacy events at Red Cap's....I think I'm going to have to start handing out Faerie Macabre's to start hating Reanimator out of the local meta! 2-2
Round 5: Shardless BUG 2-0. Got there in Game 1 with a fast clock, and then landed a Leyline in Game 2. Had to dodge fewer Lilianas in the non-walker matchup, which makes it easier, as well as not enough MD counters/discard to really get me. BUG piloted by Pat Dickson, who just top 4'd the SCG Philly. 3-2
Round 6: UW Miracles 0-2. Lost to THREE blind flips off counterbalance in G1...a 3 (Blood Moon against my Show and Tell), a 5 (Force of Will against my Dream Halls), and a 3 (Detention Sphere to Show and Tell...YUCK!). Game 2, he responded to my Show and Tell by Enlightened Tutoring for Ethersword Canonist and Flipping Top into it. I've played this matchup before and Ethersworn Canonist is a huge problem...Even if I can Cunning Wish for Pact/Charm to go off, I can't counter if the Miracle player has counters. Definitely one of the strongest cards I've seen against this deck, especially being able to tutor for it. Total 3-3.
Top 8 of the tournament: ANT, TES, Bant Maverick (with Geist of Saint Traft), UW Miracles, Dark Maverick (piloted by Jack Wang), Reanimator, Zoo (with Ghor Clan Rampager!), and something else I forgot.
Any advice on how to play around Ethersworn Canonist is appreciated. The UW miracles matchup seems rough if I don't have a fast hand. Maindeck hate in the form of Detention Sphere can randomly win games, and Canonist and a clock coming out of the board (Geist), makes it tough, especially with E Tutor being able to tutor up Canonist or D Sphere at instant Speed.
Also, I played against Sneak and Show on Wednesday, and was beaten by Pact triggers on my Emrakul extra turn...made me wish I could have had a lab maniac kill, or perhaps had access to a 4th Cunning Wish. As it was, I knew I couldn't stifle both triggers, and my opponent was at 8 life after finally getting to Emrakul on the Clash, so I Wished for Sapphire Charm-->opponent draw a card, and stacked my 2 Pact triggers first so the charm would resolve first, and then after he drew, I wished for Noxious Revival, and Revival'd Release the Ants, which I impulsed into and then tried to release the ants for the rest of the damage to win with the Pacts on the stack, but couldn't get there when my opponent got another emrakul in 2 cards on the clash.
FF is useful vs Control to find business + Trickbind to stop an EtB effect and vs aggro to help increase business density when racing. It's not particularly great against tempo that you really don't have to race (not killing you very often on turn 4-5) and don't play many problematic permanents. I find FF very useful against UWx, Goblins, Maverick, DnT, and UB Planeswalkers. It's not so hot against other combo decks like TES or ANT, it's marginal against SnT mirror (although it still lets you shave a slot by cutting the 2nd Intuition from your sideboard), and it's mostly supporting Dream Halls, which isn't really where you want to be against tempo decks such as RUG.Quote:
Originally Posted by Esper3k
Unless there was more to it you punted. You Wish->Trickbind, trickbind the first pact trigger, Wish->Revival, Revival Trickbind, Impulse into Trickbind, Trickbind the second pact trigger. Proceed to profit.Quote:
Also, I played against Sneak and Show on Wednesday, and was beaten by Pact triggers on my Emrakul extra turn...made me wish I could have had a lab maniac kill, or perhaps had access to a 4th Cunning Wish. As it was, I knew I couldn't stifle both triggers, and my opponent was at 8 life after finally getting to Emrakul on the Clash, so I Wished for Sapphire Charm-->opponent draw a card, and stacked my 2 Pact triggers first so the charm would resolve first, and then after he drew, I wished for Noxious Revival, and Revival'd Release the Ants, which I impulsed into and then tried to release the ants for the rest of the damage to win with the Pacts on the stack, but couldn't get there when my opponent got another emrakul in 2 cards on the clash.
I only had one wish...I had already wished for one of the pacts. That's why I said I'm considering moving to 4 wishes.Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln