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It's probably a good tool versus UR. But it's very targeted and not an auto win by itself nor with one creature. 4 mana piercable is not that easy to resolve with a clock and counters from the other side.
If it was good versus elves I could have given it a go.
From what I've seen in my own playtesting and watching replays from daily events where people play the deck, the main problems of the deck are:
Delver (and Pyromancer to a certain degree), SFM/Batterskull, legendary fatties cheated into play (Reanimator/S&T), Elves (and maybe JMS).
With white being basically cut down to the point of running 1 KotR and 1 Teeg from the board (Karakas could be seen as colorless land for the utility factor), I seriously question the white splash in favor of a red splash for Punishing Fire (maybe 1-2 Words of War if you want to be fancy, assuming it would turn out good) and sideboard sweepers. I'm not advocating cutting black for red, I suggest running red (instead of white) alongside black to combine the advantages of both. If we go in with this premise, we might be able to clear slots for the PF engine.
PF kills Delver, Pyromancer, SFM (also Batterskull with enough mana), random Elves and Planeswalkers. That's alot of problems it could deal with effectively. We keep black for AD and dealing with TNN. KotR is good and all, but doesn't really solve those problems.
I know that the possibility of using KotR for utility lands from the board is cute, but with only 1 MD KotR that takes ages to get everything online if you have to GSZ for it seems rather slow. Which lead me to this crazy idea:
Crop Rotations in the board to fetch Tower, Karakas and Bog. Yes, I'm fully aware that it's a major disadvantage if it gets countered and that it doesn't work with CotV @1, but I think of it more as a cheap "OH SHIT!"-button when they try to reanimate stuff early or jam down noodle monsters and bargain demons. Tabernacle could also be a target against various decks IF the Crop Rotation plan works out. Would also work to find Groves, but that's a minor concern.
i was thinking about the same ideas. No way to deal TNN without black, otherwise i'll think white>black (thinking red give us pyroclasm -i love this card in this metagame, even md). I like Words of War but it's too cute against p.fire ^^
The main point is: without white and priest you accept to lose against S&T, it's ok? i think we have no way out, like 10-90, in this case...
How is Priest anyway, considering it also cuts us off from GSZ (and fetching for Dryad Arbor)?Quote:
Originally Posted by Memories of the Time
And I did suggest a potential out in form of Crop Rotation + Karakas, although that has to be tested.
white is great if you embrace it. Teeg / Quasali are allstars against most combo matches. Teeg hits Miracles, ANT, Sneak attack, dredge, and Spiral tide. Pridemage is just all around better than reclamation sage because he can put pressure on opponent while they stall trying to find a way to deal with him. He's actually my preferred slot over Reclamation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Delver (and Pyromancer to a certain degree) are meh, i've found that the better i play they crappier their decks seem. Playing around daze generally make 4 of their cards worthless. and they can only draw so many FOW. However, sometimes they just get nutty hands where you t1 chalice, and they draw 4x pyromancers or goyfs... Shit happens. UR delver decks run moon in the board so relying on PF may not be optimal.
SFM/Batterskull is solved by reliably searching up Tower of the magistrate.
legendary fatties cheated into play (Reanimator/S&T) are solved by reliably searching up Karakas / Bojuka. Willow Satyr has served me well, and so has sigarda, host of herons
Elves bite it hard to glacial chasm.
JTMS in my experience really only sees play in miracles and nic fit, but miracles should be easy if you can shut down SDT.
Grove / fires could probably help delver, SFM, elves issues but you would still need to have a reliable way to tutor lands. Additionally you are looking at needing 4-5 slots minimum, 2/2 or 2/3.
with the crop rotation board you are looking at ~five cards also.
I run 3xcrop rotation main deck with 4x chalice main and have almost 0 issues. The reason is because while chalice is in play, i have the advantage cause it's preventing ~12 of their cards. As soon as they destroy it you can instantly crop rotation for a land that has an immediate impact on the game.
@ containment priest: you probably won't ever want to run this because of the anti synergy with the deck. The second you remove GSZ from this decks its just as inconsistent and clunky as stax. Its also not that big a deal playing against it because it maybe shows up as a 2 of out of most D&T boards and some Miracle boards. D&T has no way to tutor for it and you can play around it sometimes if you are careful.
Anti-synergy? The problem is make her live, in this case you win, 100%. Same identical matter of Gaddock Teeg, but you play him no? Never thought about remove GSZ, it's the core of the deck °°
Qasali>Reclamation of course, and by far for several reasons. I've lost mine at the beginning of the tournament, so i was forced to play reclamation last minute. Very Sad.
I can't imagine to find 3 slots maindeck for another non creature-card, really, that makes card disvantages if countered and clashs with chalice (two times, at this tournament, with chalice at 1 i've drawn DRS, an 1x...). Crop rotation+bojuka seems very nice, of course, as crop+karakas (doesn't block Sneak attack!). i think Willow Satyr is incredibly slow to rely on.
Elves doesn't give a fuck about Glacial Chasm like Worship, they can buy you one turn if you're lucky, no more, if they start their combo.
Anyway, putting in P.Fire Means cut down decay, i'm right? This could not be so terrible if we side in Krosan Grip when we need it...
You're right, Titania is definitely good enough as a one of. I did some more testing. Goyf is great as a mid to late game threat, but not turn 2. I still think it's good enough at that role that it's worth playing 2.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lejay
I'm currently 2-1 in Portland. Lost to Jund. I didn't really know how to play the matchup. Seems like Titania and running Baloths are the only way to win.
I was thinking about a 3/3 split between PF and Decay.Quote:
Originally Posted by Memories of the Time
First rough draw:
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Forest
2 Bayou
1 Swamp
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Taiga
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Mox Diamond
1 Deathrite Shaman
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Reclamation Sage
3 Obstinate Baloth
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Choke
4 Sylvan Library
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
2 Rolling Spoil
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Karakas
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Spike Weaver
1 Kalonian Hydra
1 Tower of the Magistrate
2 Massacre
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Crop Rotation
The sideboard could contain a 4th AD or PF or a few copies of Pyroclasm. Teeg could also still be cast in theory with some the few white sources in the deck, but he's mainly a GSZ target, isn't he? Just some food for thought what I had in mind.
i have found that the ideal # of creatures for this deck is ~12... you have 8, which only 4 are threats and 1 is a good threat. At this point you are probably spreading yourself too thin. You probably don't need rolling spoils now that you have punishing fires, so they could be creatures. Also, it seems like you are not just playing a green control deck instead of an agro deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
trying out this list as a realized that I want R too. It is more of a Hybrid with a Loam Deck and I didn't keep Trinisphere as it sometimes felt like unnecessary with CotV out. 3 Chokes are SB just for testing purposes. In my current Meta I would play them main for less Removal. I have forsaken Stompy Lands for now and play a full Mox set. The Lifeloss was sometimes relevant and in a 4C version you cannot effort too much colorless lands. Instead I tried the DD combo which up to now wasn't very relevant as the means to find it are not that big. So it might be I go back to something else which is a mix between Mox and stompy lands.
[deck]
1x Bojuka Bog
4x Verdant Catacomb
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Dark Depth
3x Wasteland
1x Thespian's Stage
2x Tranquil Thicket
1x Forest
3x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Karakas
1x Badlands
1x Scrubland
1x Taiga
1x Savannah
2x Bayou
1x Devastating Dreams
1x Pyroclasm
2x Toxic Deluge
2x Sylvan Library
3x Green Sun Zenith
2x Life from the Loam
3x Punishing Fire
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Titania, protector of Argoth
1x Siege Rhino
1x Wickerbough Elder
2x Obstinate Baloth
1x courser of kurphix
2x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Scavening Ooze
1x Gaddock teeg
1x Dryad Arbor
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Mox Diamond
Sideboard:
3x Choke
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell vale
1x Spike Weaver
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Thrun, the last Troll
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Containment Priest
1x Massaker
1x Golgari Charm
1x Ancient Grudge
1x Slaughter Games
[/deck]
PF can't get rid of TNN, and the LD aspect from Spoil comes handy sometimes. As I said, it's just a rough draw for discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by apple713
What I don't get is your critique about the threat numbers - it's one creature lower than Lejay's list and 8 + 4 GSZ are still 12 creatures. I could agree that their threat level might be debatable, though.
How about this change:
-1 Grove, +1 Savannah
-1 Spoil, +1 KotR
Supporting Pridemage over Sage with that kinda of manabase would seem shaky, at best. At the very least, more access to white mana makes Teeg in the SB justifiable again. I know Lejay loves his basic Swamp to death, but if the route to go was 4C, I would probably cut the Swamp to up the fetchland count back to 7 again.
I don't know if white is the colour to sacrifice for red, in case. For the meta and the MU i fear, i'm much more on a thing like:
3 Ancient Tomb
2 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Wasteland
1 Savannah
4 Sylvan Library
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Choke
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Thragtusk
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
3 Windswept Heath
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Karakas
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Dust Bowl
3 Mox Diamond (+1 -1 Drs)
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Eternal Witness
1 Qasali Pridemage
(old part)
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Punishing Fire
1 Life from the Loam
1 Kitchen Finks (1°Rhino)
1 Huntmaster of the Fells (2° Rhino)
1 Council's Judgment
1 Plateau
4 Wooded Foothills
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Choke
SB: 1 Worship
SB: 3 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Trinisphere
SB: 2 Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction/trap/anothr Faerie
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Council's Judgment
SB: 2 Pyroclasm/1 Wrath of God (soooo old style, beta of course!)
If we keep black, i think i'll consider Slaughter Games, one of my favorite cards. I think that the things red and black can do is quite the same, except for Nemesi.
Black is better for cheap and effective Mass Removal and also counter-safe catch-all Removal. Red can't do that as effectively or cross permanent types but has more reach as it can handle PWs or use Burn as a win condition or recurring removal for small dudes. So although they both plow the same field they do it quite differently and depending on the matchup you want to have one or the otheror ideally both ;-) White still offers most for a third color as I feel that Rhino, Teeg and Knight are pretty awesome in this Deck and also key to win against certain decks / strategies. Also White offers a ton of hate bears against combo decks which the deck is susceptible for. I playtested Elves the other day and I was happy to have Teeg, Containment Priest, Ethersworn Canonist and Cotv alongside my GSZ. NO for something like a 15/15 big worm is simply unstoppable for this deck otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Memories of the Time
I know lejay commented briefly on fauna shaman but it seems like its main function was to discard progen and wurm. Has anyone else tried Fauna Shaman?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lejay
Are there any other utility creatures like fauna shaman and Knight of the reliquary that are worth mentioning?
I don't think Fauna Shaman is doing any good in a deck with 10 creatures or so.Quote:
Originally Posted by apple713
If we actually ran more CiP creatures for utility, I would rather want to test Restoration Angel, but Titania/Baloth/Sage aren't enough to justify that.
Reading all of this I just figured out that the next clasm Wotc decides to print should be
RB: sorcery
All creatures get -1/-1 until end of turn. Blablabla deals 1 damage to each creature.
:)
An additionnal -1/-1 to humans would be enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by TraxDaMax
So what decks / strategies does this have problems with right now? It's pretty obvious what are its good matchups but what has been troublesome, in order of difficulty, for this in testing so far?
I'd say sneak show since I don't metagame much for it (almost inexistent online). Elves and infect aren't easy despite your artifacts. MUD seems slightly unfavourable. Patriot delver seems more annoying since I cut the grips.
I wouldn't be against further improving UR also.
From my test:
-Sneak&Show -> by far, without *total* card like Containment Priest i think it's very horrible even post side. The n°1 reason i've to keep white in my metagame (Italy)
-Reanimator: if you lose the dice i think you can start to look at your sideboard
-Elves: as above
-Lands/DD deck