It's not complete without Big Furry Monster. He has a 12/12 and an 11/11 for earings! I imagine his head alone would be bigger than Marit Lage.Quote:
Originally Posted by t000
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It's not complete without Big Furry Monster. He has a 12/12 and an 11/11 for earings! I imagine his head alone would be bigger than Marit Lage.Quote:
Originally Posted by t000
Played a bit classic build with carpet of flower didn't do too badly.
4-1 beating RUG tempo ; zoo tempo ; URB YP grixis ; UW control with path maindeck but not miracle and losing to turbo rea.
then 4-2 on the bigger tornament beating merfolk, reanimator with painter ; burn ; beast.deck and losing to omni show and turbo reanimator.
The combo matchups are still really bad ; here is my take on the UB version of the deck,
still not a lot of testing will tell later if it is good enough :
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Polluted Delta
4 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Maze of Ith
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Swamp
1 Underground Sea
4 Expedition Map
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Brainstorm
2 Top
4 Standstill
3 Spell Snare
3 Spell Pierce/Force of will
2 Toxic Deluge
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Lim-Dûl's Vault
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 3 Swan Song
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 3 Duress/IOK/Seize
SB: 1 Envelop
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
As you see the density of good spells is lower than in green versions but the man land beatdown plans +standstill makes for a good miracle matchup and the counters might be enough against combo.decks.
I like the maze of ith + toxic deluge plans against aggro decks.
Note that the deck doesn't loses game one against blood moon island+swamp+mountain makes it for a 3cc ee.
I am not too sure of the side, maybe some baleful strix against tempo.strategies which are not as good as in classic.depth.
I wanted to try some DTT but the UU mana cost is too bad and lim dul's vault feels better.
Maybe some top could fit into the deck in the ponder space. The top are better in a fow.less build but you need ponder in a fow.build.
I am liking less and less creeping tar it is good at killing planeswalker but not people might kept it as a one off but I am not too sure of it. factory is still king. I might play a wasteland/dust bowl/tower of the magistrate/academy ruin in his place for greedy matchups.
I am looking to play a pretty stock list this week at the SCG IQ this Sunday but was wondering if anyone in the area has a general idea on how the meta is at this moment? I.E. should I have Carper of Flowers or Pyroblast/REB main? I am leaning more on the second but am also not as afraid of combo as many are since I have a couple Sphere of Resistance in the sideboard (this is the only reason it is not a stock list).
Hey guys! As a man who finds smashing with Marit Lage to be the most satisfying strategy in magic I am very grateful for such an insightful thread here on the source (mtgsalvation is dead for depths players). I've got into this deck recently and I am a bit confused by the manabase. Is it really better to play fastlands and confluences/cities/mines instead of duals and fetches? I would love to hear some reasoning behind this.I was also going to ask about inquisition/duress over thoughtseizes but few aggressive decks on MTGO educated me the hard way here :)
Thanks and keep the one-hit K.O. alive!
The manabase is quite good and there too be submerge.proof which see a lot of play in blue tempoish.decks.Quote:
Midorikawa
Hey guys! As a man who finds smashing with Marit Lage to be the most satisfying strategy in magic I am very grateful for such an insightful thread here on the source (mtgsalvation is dead for depths players). I've got into this deck recently and I am a bit confused by the manabase. Is it really better to play fastlands and confluences/cities/mines instead of duals and fetches? I would love to hear some reasoning behind this.I was also going to ask about inquisition/duress over thoughtseizes but few aggressive decks on MTGO educated me the hard way here :)
Thanks and keep the one-hit K.O. alive!
It is very important not to lose to random stuff like that.
The UB version isn't right now very good classic version is more powerfull overall more consistant.
I want to try the sphere of resistance.tech also I am maybe going to cut the grudge completely for more krosan grip with second maze batterskull is not that frightening.
There is the tower of magistrate (third maze might be better) and maybe dust bowl (for 12post) I'ld like to test.
Would you only sideboard Sphere or would you main deck a number of them?Quote:
Originally Posted by adrieng
This is obviously for sideboard but I haven't already tested that maybe with some thalia which can also be good against controldecks.
Thalia is a pet card of mine so a fun of in the sb is something I could get behind to help the combo matchups. Has there ever been tests with the Gitaxian Probe+Cabal Therapy combo? It is extremely disruptive and helps provide valuable info when we may not get it.
This is a tentative list I will start testing when I get back to my hometown in a couple days:
Artifacts - 8
4 Pithing Needle
4 Expedition Map
Instants - 7
4 Crop Rotation
3 Pyroblast
Sorceries - 14
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal therapy
4 Sylvan Scrying
1 Duress
Enchantments - 1
1 Sylvan Library
Creatures - 4
4 Vampire Hexmage
Lands -27
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Gemstone Mine
4 Copperline Gorge
4 City of Brass
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Sejiri Steppe
2 Maze of Ith
1 Ghost Quarter
Not sure if the numbers are right quite yet but the idea came from the fact that we are inherently a combo deck so we might as well take a hint from other combo decks like Storm.
Since many of us are still trying new builds I have taken a second look at the “Main Deck Construction Guideline” section of the OP and added some points to note when constructing new versions to test.
The basic skeleton is below and should be followed closely to maintain consistency.
Tutors - 12
Additional Draw - 5
Protection - 13 (4 are usually pithing needle and 9 variable)
Color Producing Lands - 14 (4 of which are Urborg and can be cut if not running black)
Utility lands - 4
Combo - 12
The numbers can be +/- 1 maybe 2 but remember that the greater the deviation, the less consistency you will have with the deck.
12 tutors provide a very consistent basis for assembling the combo very quickly.
5 additional draw spells aid in consistency. Sylvan library has been the typical choice because it allows you to recover quickly in the event of swords to plowshares.
13 Protection - This is where the deck is having issues. We have tried various mixes of duress, inquisition, red elemental blast, and carpet of flowers but we are getting crushed by other combo decks. Note that this number includes pithing needles which are normally an auto include.
10 lands that produce a given color can support 12-15 colored mana symbols. The list below has 15, but most iterations have at least 12 and there has not been an issue of colored mana.
4 utility lands is probably the minimum you want to run. Feel free to run more but adjust the manabase if you do.
9 black land sources seem ok to support 14 black mana symbols but sometimes it comes up short because of double black.
16 blue cards, at the very minimum, can support force of will
Force of will and spell pierce are sufficient defense against combo decks for main deck with up to 4 additional counterspells in the sideboard slots (Flusterstorm, Swan Song, Red Elemental Blast).
Suggestions
Since combo seems to be our worst matchup the most obvious way to combat that would be through counterspells. Decks, such as Sneak and Show, typically run 4x force of will (hard counter) and 4x spell pierce (soft counter) main deck. They also add up to 4x cards in the sideboard to assist them for g2 / g3. Additionally, counterspells help against swords to plowshares, repeal, entreat the angels, and others. Logically, we are simply substituting discard protection for counterspell protection which is better against combo.
So if we are going to run 8x counterspells, that takes up the majority of our “protection” category leaving only 5 spots open and we still need to run 8x more blue cards to justify the inclusion of force of will. Typically, if blue shows up in any deck, brainstorm is the first card on the list, and ponder is often times next to follow. Even though we are not running fetch lands we have several shuffle effects, more than most decks that do use fetchlands.
Assuming that Brainstorm is a direct substitute for “additional draw” we have 1 spot remaining in that category and 4 more blue cards to add. Combined with the 5 available for protection we have 6 spots to add some combination of the following, Ponder, Stifle, Lim’ Dul’s Vault, spell snare.
Stifle seems like an obvious replacement for pithing needle and would give us the 4 blue cards but its better is some cases and worse in others. Pithing needle hits all wastelands, but stifle hits things you don't expect, and random fetchlands. Hitting fetch lands may seem like a waste but in the early turns its a time walk, which is HUGE for this deck. If you can “time walk” against ANT it can lead to a victory because often times we are able to make the token during the turn they win. Additionally stifle hits storm and miracle triggers which is huge since those show up in 2 of the decks we fear most. I would expect 2 pithing needles and 3 stifles to be the optimal number. Not every deck plays wasteland, and if they do they wont always draw it so 2 pithing needles should be sufficient. Stifle has slightly more application hitting random maze of it and quarks if you had named something else with pithing needle, and stifle fills the need for blue cards.
I think having 1 sylvan library is good because it can lead to a good advantage in the event of swords to plowshares but is really bad in multiples. If we keep 1 sylvan library we have used all 6 available slots and still need 1 blue card. Because we have managed to maintain efficiency of the original version by keeping all of the tutors, using maze of it to hold off attackers seems like a strategy that should only really happen if something went wrong. Thus, I would cut 1 maze for our last blue card which should be Ponder. Ponder on the other hand, is cartable turn 1 and only cost 1 blue mana. It cantrips and has an immediate effect. Furthermore it has a shuffle effect for our brainstorms.
The next issue is being able to cast the blue spells we added. Since we only need to support blue mana for 12 blue colored spells because force of will wont typically be hardcast, ~10 colored land sources would be sufficient. Currently the build has 5, but if we simply substitute Coppermine gorge for City of Brass we hit the 9 colored sources to be able to reliably cast our spells, and we don't have to worry about them coming into play tapped late game. The only drawback is taking damage for city of brass which would only affect longer games. In the short term the 3-4 damage a game is practically nothing. It can be an issue against red deck wins, but with the addition of blue our match improves by being able to courter price of progress.
Color Producing Lands - 14
4 Mana Confluence
4 Copperline Gorge -> City of Brass
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Gemstone Mine
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Utility Lands - 4
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Maze of Ith -> 1x Ponder
1 Sejiri Steppe
Combo - 12
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Vampire Hexmage
Protection - 4
4 Pithing Needle -> 2x Spell Pierce
Misc - 9
2 Duress -> 2x Spell Pierce
4 Inquisition of Kozilek -> 4x Force of Will
3 Carpet of Flowers -> 3x Stifle
Tutor / Draw - 17
1 Sensei's Divining Top -> Brainstorm
4 Expedition Map
4 Sylvan Library -> 3x Brainstorm
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Crop Rotation
****EDIT
For the first time ever, I've been able to beat through Snapcaster mages flashing back STP.
One more reason I am favoring Brainstorm over sylvan library is because it has an immediate effect one turn 1 and allows you to keep mana open to spell pierce or stifle. With a rainbow land on t1 you can brainstorm looking for the missing pieces for turn 2 token (dark depths, urborg, hexmage, crop rotation <- since ranbow land on t1). Sure thats a 4 card combo, but it's just one more way to increase the chances of making Marit Lage a turn earlier.
The blue version is so much weaker : you are proposing to cut some pithing needle/sylvan library/carpet of flowers
for weak blue cards. I mean against tempo they need to fow that turn one needle if they play wasteland, they need to fow carpet of flowers or game is over;
and sylvan library is so much valuable against swords to plownshare.
I am now playing a one off mishra's factory in the 2nd duress slot and I can tell it is very good : against miracle but not only ; it is also strong against death and taxes, nimble mongoose, YP planeswalker and so on
I just need to see whether the combo and miracle matchups have been solved thanks to the side (one off peacekeeper might be a problem maybe i need one off decay in the KG slot)
The deck is clearly a DTB.
Without TC it's not clear that we need pyroclasme in side it is a good card but I'ld rather have something for combo which is clearly harder than things like YP.tempo, gob, elves deathAndTaxes.
My current version is the following :
1 Duress
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Crop Rotation
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Expedition Map
4 Sylvan Library
4 Pithing Needle
3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sejiri Steppe
4 Mana Confluence
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Razorverge thicket
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Maze of Ith
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Mishra's Factory
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 4 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Sphere of Resistance
SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Quote:
Originally Posted by adrieng
I don't know how you figure that the MOST played blue cards in the legacy format are weak... The current version of the deck doesn't have issues vs tempo so why would you compare the changes I suggested to it? Stifling a t1 fetch land against a tempo deck can be a game winner in itself. You are only giving up 2 pithing needles and you are actually gaining 3 stifles... so realistically you have more defense against those wastelands. After you stick 1 pithing needle against tempo the others are dead draws...what good is that?
Sylvan may be more powerful against swords than brainstorm but the goal is to use the counterspells to counter the swords to plowshares solving the problem preemptively. Sylvan library is very bad in multiples and has a delayed effect, you have to wait a turn before ANYTHING happens, and sometimes it's destroyed before you get any effect. Sure it's recursive but unless you are shuffling your library its no better than a brainstorm.
The changes I proposed and reasoned are aimed at the weakest matches while maintaining the consistency and defense against the current matches. The versatility of stifle and brainstorm more than make up for any slight advantages EXCESS sylvan libraries and needles have. Furthermore they allow you to run counterspells SIGNIFICANTLY improving you combo matches to a point where they are not an issue. It solves ALL combo matches too, omni, dredge, S&T, Reanimator, ANT, belcher... come on, how can you argue with that?
Stifle protects only against a single wasteland, and you have to wait one turn to have one more land to protect yourself from wasteland and combo off, that can be problematic cause if they fow the stifle and you go off you just lose ;Quote:
Stifling a t1 fetch land against a tempo deck can be a game winner in itself. You are only giving up 2 pithing needles and you are actually gaining 3 stifles... so realistically you have more defense against those wastelands
while with needle you know most of the time what to do (you can even guess whether they have decay+waste).
i have discard+library you only have counters. Discard always take the sword cause they need to keep it in hand, while pierce doesn't counters stp most of the time and you have to wait one more turn to protect from swords.Quote:
Sylvan may be more powerful against swords than brainstorm but the goal is to use the counterspells to counter the swords to plowshares solving the problem preemptively
So you have less answers to swords in reality. Also not playing library and needle makes your miracle matchups unwinnable it is not like 4 fow would change anyhting.
Also note that if I once resolved library against a sword.deck I have an answer for every sword they 'll ever play and that's proactive.
I don't agree totally while you may have improved combo matchups a little bit, tempo matchups are not the bye they used to be, death and taxes is not winnable without library second maze and needle, miracle is unwinnable,Quote:
Furthermore they allow you to run counterspells SIGNIFICANTLY improving you combo matches to a point where they are not an issue
maverick is also harder. Everything gets worse.
Don't get me wrong I have proposed a blue black dark depth list and if you want to go this way you should play standstil (turn one map(fetch maze etc..)/EE@O for delver/or just a turn three/four token without casting a single spell),
makes them breaking it or lose but I didn't like it ; cause not playing green is wrong.
Hello all,
I thoroughly enjoyed reading through this thread. Just wanted to throw out a list I've been running for about two months and had some decent local results with - finished top 16 in both recent Tales of Adventure tourneys (40 dual tourney with a little under 90 players and Eternal Extravaganza 2 with 317 players). Here is the list:
Dark Depths
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Mox Diamond
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Expedition Map
4 Crop Rotation
4 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Polluted Delta
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Bayou
2 Gemstone Mine
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Mana Confluence
1 Tropical Island
1 Karakas
1 Underground Sea
1 Wasteland
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
Sideboard:
4 Pithing Needle
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Krosan Grip
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Not of this World
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Duress
1 Glacial Chasm
The Not of this World is more of a "fun of," but everything else has been useful on multiple occassions.
General thoughts on some differences between this list and the main configuration(s) on here:
The fetchland manabase & Brainstorm - Submerge hasn't been an issue at all... between moxes, cropping away one of the three forests, and having an Underground Sea to fetch, playing around it on the few occassions where it could be present has been pretty easy. The deck can also appear to be other decks or confuse opponents into mistakes for a turn or two. Blood Moon is definitely an issue, but between a few extra early kills and the extra discard to try and hit it, I'm ok with losing a game here and there to it. IMO, Brainstorm is just broken and worth the cost. Plus there are some answers present in Grip and Decay(floating mana or a mox for Grip). Brainstorm also enables a few more turn two tokens.
I've found that assembling the combo twice has generally been trivial. Playing through a Wasteland or one hate card has generally worked out. Killing as fast as possible (without resorting to paper thin cards like Lotus Petal or Simian Spirit guide) or fighting with discard against combo decks seems preferable. Library is great, but I ran out of room and have been trying to play through Swords with extra discard instead of reloading. This version has been good against combo at the expense of the fair matchups. The idea was to be better main against combo and board more against certain fair decks.
To give a really small sample size of how the deck did in the two tourneys, here were the matchups:
Lost to Miracles, Bug Delver, Esper Deathblade, and Reanimator
Won against Turbo Eldrazi, Elves twice, Storm, 12 post, Patriot Delver, Bug Delver, Omni-tell, Dredge, R/G Lands, Reanimator, Painter, and Mono Red
It's a work in progress and I'd love to hear any thoughts you guys might have.
Went to an honest 4-2 with previous build (carpet.build) beating URdelver, DeathAndTaxes, Jund, Merfolk all 2-0 and losing 1-2 to turbo Rea and infect.
I want finally to test mox diamond, didn't do it before and I think it could be ok.
But I don't understand why you don't play 4 sylvan library in a deck which can go turn one library. The main thngs that bothered me it is no library/ no sejiri steppe/ too many colored lands
you don't need that many and not playing needle maindeck. You have just one single answer too a resolve wasteland it is your one off wasteland (and thespian can copy waste also) other way they just have to wait and you can't do the token other way they waste in response and you are fucked up.
Also I am thinking that if we go this way we can reduce the number of green source, 10 green source+1top+4 map
has almost always been fine with that. So we can add some mishra's factory which improve the deck against miracle and hate ie diabolic edict/surgical.
With mox diamond I want to test sphere of resistance maindeck which take the slot of kozilek and two off thalia.
This idea seems contruitive (thalia) but decks playing creatures are pretty good matchups already, we need to focuse on very fast decks (omni show/infect/storm)
without losing against decks that were already good matchups.
One off tomb can be cropped for turn one sphere which can be good in some situations.
The sphere idea is too slow down your opponent while you just need to play your land cards to win or tutor them while they need to bouiboui/+ find disrupt/creatures.
Lands are not more expensives to cast it is what I mean and you kill with lands ie they need disrupt/bouiboui+creature (both are more expensive) while you need tutor+lands (just tutor costs more).
With mox diamond the ratchet bomb slot can go away because we can cast 2 mana colored spells ie decay under a blood moon.
Also golgari charm looks better destroys blood moon and answers elf/infect/death and taxes.
The list I want to test for next tornament is the following :
I am not too sure whether I want to play rest in peace or choke side but rest in peace might be brought in more matchups.
Also the second basic forest might be a manaconfluence not too sure of it either.
Also notice that I have 3 sided kozilek cause it is still a very good choice imo.
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Sejiri Steppe
4 Razorverge Thicket
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Forest
2 Maze of Ith
1 Ancient Tomb
4 Mox Diamond
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Sylvan Library
4 Expedition Map
4 Crop Rotation
3 Sylvan Scrying
4 Pithing Needle
4 Sphere of Resistance
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Sensei's Divining Top
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 3 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 3 Inquisition of Kozilek
Nice list adrieng. I will use it if you don't mind at the next tournament next week with slight changes:
maindeck:
+2 or +3 Mana Confluence to reliably play all colored spells
- 1 Forest, -1 Maze of Ith (moves to SB), -1????
sb:
+2 Containment Priests in SB to answer Elves, SnT, Dredge, Reanimator
-2 Rest in Peace
+1 Maze of Ith
-1 Toxic Deluge
-1 Golgari Charm
+1 Engineered Plague
I would like to include 2*Gaddock Teeg in SB but GW costis pretty rough for such manabase :/. Playing Teeg and Thalia would make Karakas profitable against Reanimator, SnT, DnT and Miracles to save our hatebears.
2Negator77 - I like your list and smooth and useful inclusion of Brainstorm. If I could choose what to play I would try your deck. Unfortunatelly I've just sold Bayous and Tropicals recently.
adrieng - While library is a fantastic card and could be played on turn 1 on occassion in this build, it only enables turn two tokens if both library and mox are in the opening hand. Brainstorm enables some turn two tokens all by itself since the mox can be any of the first 10-11 cards as opposed to having to be in the first 7-8. 7 maindeck discard spells (plus another post board) attacking cards like STP can make the reloading aspect of library less needed at times.Quote:
Originally Posted by adrieng
There are ways to power through wasteland. The one of wasteland and extra stages as you mentioned. Besides those, you can set up Stage/Depths and Hexmage (while not easy to set up, it does play through a wasteland. Just playing into Wasteland and letting them 2 for 1 you, then resetting is also an option.. albeit a less than exciting one. The idea was to make the main deck faster and able to fight combo decks game one and sideboard into familiar strategies to fight fair decks games 2-3. I found in testing I was able to take a lot of game 1's from the fair decks even with significantly less cards that punish those decks. The decision was just an attempt to make every matchup winable game one, then configure the deck to be extremely difficult to play against regardless of what the opponent was running post board. Whether its worth the tradeoffs is an open question of course. The wasteland matchups are much more straightforward once The Needles, Ghost Quarter, and whatever else is needed come in. I hadn't considered or tried the Sphere/Thalia option main deck.
Sejiri Steppe was similiar. I found myself in spots where I wouldn't have the extra mana available to set up EOT token, plus crop protection for Steppe. My opponents were never letting me untap before they attempt a STP. Perhaps I was/am playing it wrong, but I haven't had many situations come up where it would swing the game. Shizo pushes through most blockers just as effectively and taps for black which is relevant while running cards like Hexmage.
Golgari Charm is one I haven't tried that sounds fantastic. I was looking for a card to take the place of the single NOTW, since that card is really only useful against a handful of decks like D+T where it answers Swords and Karakas.
Lio - thanks!
So I've still been playing this..
I tried the standstill version last week and meant to write about it. I went 2-2 but I actually feel like I had pretty good game. just bad luck. Outside of that, I have actually reduced discard and gone to 3 Not of this world maindeck. My LGS and MTGO seems to be a lot of stoneblad and miracles and the Not of this Worlds really allow me to go off a turn or so faster.
not sure if ppl are drawing the connection here but Not of this world was really only omitted from the main deck because it's conditional. Meaning that its only useful if the opponent has STP / bounce spells / karakas. If you find that your meta is packed with these cards it would possibly justify a main deck slot and definitely a SB slot. It is the BEST at what it does hands down.Quote:
Originally Posted by komondor
Due to the meta shifts, STP is showing up significantly more and is becoming an endemic problem like wasteland. STP comprises ~30+ % of the top decks where as wasteland is between 40-50% of the top decks. Clearly wasteland is more played however, there are more cards that Not of this world interacts with that would not be represented on that list such as any and all bounce spells which vary significantly between decks. It's possible that the additional cards that not of the world helps with may make make it as valuable as pithing needle and justify a main deck slot.
Its easier to justify their inclusion when you play cards like brainstorm that can put them back into your library when they are irrelevant.
The idea off making all spells cost more seems nice to explore ; that way turn one thorn of amethyst or sphere of resistance seems optimal.
I felt thalia came often one turn too late without mox dimaond.
I think I might brew something with 4 ancient tomb 4 sphere of resistance and 3 thorn main. It seems ok.
The core of the deck has to stay but I had to cut one crop moved to side sylvan scrying is better with mox.
I also tested the fear land and it was garbbage most of the time sejiri steppe is in almost all situations better
not needing to pay one more when you tutor for is very important an creatures such has baleful strix exists.
I cutted one library and one needle for side. I feel like I want some kozilek for side but couldn't find the space.
Now I need to retest the different matchups.
But just think at things like turn one tomb sphere turn two thespian thorn/sphere turn three depth token turn four kill.
Those hands can happen, and you have a lot of possibilities, but most important things is to keep the core of the deck
which makes it strong against tempo strategies.
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
1 Sejiri Steppe
4 Copperline Gorge
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Forest
4 Mox Diamond
2 Maze of Ith
2 Mishra's Factory
4 Expedition Map
3 Crop Rotation
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Sylvan Scrying
3 Pithing Needle
3 Sylvan Library
3 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Sensei's Divining Top
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 3 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 2 Choke
SB: 1 Crop Rotation
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
you can cut 1-2 mox diamonds and +1 crop rotation easily. mox diamond is horrible in multiples and past turn 3. Its nice to have the extra colored sources but conditional cards arnt great. I could see that strategy working but its unlikely that they will buy more turns than discard or counterspells. Ultimately you just want more turns to play more lands. It's nice that they also hurt combo decks. Nether void is the other card that helps in buying turns. Really its probably too CMC expensive but it can buy a lot of turns.Quote:
Originally Posted by adrieng
EDIT
It seems like you might as well just play a tempo shell like team america since it's in our colors anyways.