[Deck] Grixis Tempo

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Originally Posted by maharis

Hi, I played essentially this deck the other night:

http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=11464&d=265125&f=LE

Differences were Fire/Ice over Forked Bolt, Murderous Cut over Painful Truths, and 3 Usea/3 Stifle instead of 2/4.

I lost to imperial taxes and miracles, and beat burn and a RG chalice/moon brew.

I also think I prefer Therapy to Stifle -- I felt that against Miracles, where it was most relevant, you're damned if you don't develop your board and damned if you do and let them get basics online.

Is the general consensus that Stifle is what makes Delver worth playing for the busted starts? And if I want to play Therapy main, I should go for a more control/midrange Pyromancer deck like this?

http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=11421&d=264839&f=LE

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Not at all - several players have had success with Stifle-free builds. The first that comes to mind is Dylan Donegan, who narrowly missed the Top 8 of the relatively recent DC Open with such a configuration, and has played it to solid finishes in some SCG Classics in the meantime. You are less able to jump on top of decks with land-light draws, and I think you're weaker to Storm unless you replace the Stifles with cards that are similarly impactful in the matchup (Therapy probably counts, but is still a downgrade IMO), but having Therapy maindeck with Probes and Pyromancers is a strong place to be, especially if you're good at playing it in the blind, and frees up a significant amount of sideboard space (more than 25% of it, in fact). It's also usually a better topdeck. I actually like playing Therapy, as I have an uncanny ability to hit on blind ones.

In fact, some would argue - and have argued on this thread - that one of the primary reasons to play this deck is the interaction between Probe, Therapy, and Pyromancer, particularly those last two.

However, I really like playing Stifle. I feel more comfortable with it in my deck. It gives me an extra edge against Storm and Shardless, random decks that I see from time to time like Painter and Nic Fit, and, really, anything playing fetchlands. It has some applications against almost every deck in the format, even Lands, where it won me a game because I was able to Stifle my opponent's only Maze. It can also pitch to Force, which is critical from time to time. Currently, though, I'm eschewing Probes for non-blue cards, so that's a bit of a wash.

All that said, cutting Delvers and playing more of a controlling build is something I've been toying with recently, as most of the games I've been playing have devolved into grind fests and my aggressive wins with Delvers are getting fewer and farther between. I've also been wanting to play Bob for weeks and I haven't been able to find an optimal usage, and such a shell might facilitate that. It sounds like the build you played was already trending in that direction, so you might want to try the controlling build out and see how it works.

Thank you -- I am a lot more comfortable with Therapy since I've played it in almost every deck I've ever played seriously.

Looks like Donegan's most recent build has Spell Pierce/Forked Bolt main over Stifle with Therapies in the board, which I think is defensible as well.

I am testing this deck for SCG Philly, and I expect Miracles to be out in force... neither Stifle nor Therapy is a game-breaker there, but I also am philosophically opposed to Abrupt Decay main, so options are limited anyway. Probably going to have to try Spell Snare.

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Originally Posted by maharis

Thank you -- I am a lot more comfortable with Therapy since I've played it in almost every deck I've ever played seriously.

Looks like Donegan's most recent build has Spell Pierce/Forked Bolt main over Stifle with Therapies in the board, which I think is defensible as well.

I am testing this deck for SCG Philly, and I expect Miracles to be out in force... neither Stifle nor Therapy is a game-breaker there, but I also am philosophically opposed to Abrupt Decay main, so options are limited anyway. Probably going to have to try Spell Snare.

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Stifle is actually really good in the Miracle match-up. They want the greedy manabase with Tundra's to be able to cast and drop the Plow and Counterbalance asap. Throwing a Wasteland and Stifle can mess up the gameplan really hard. You can also Stifle the miracle trigger or draw from Top to enable the miracle.
Snare is not that great. It counters the Couterbalance and perhaps the Snapcaster, but Pierce also hits Counterbalance and hits Jace, Top, Plow and the Terminus. So I would try the Pierce instead.

I play BUG Delver with stifles, not hymns, and Stifle is pretty good here.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

Hi guys!
Coming from the 4c-Delver section. Since I just don't want to afford Tarmogoyfs I played with 4 Nimble Mongoose, but while they're great in certain matchups they're just too slow so the deck was better at getting an advantage, but way worse in taking advantage of the position.
I played Grixis during the DTT-era, but kinda switched away because Stoneforge Mystic was pretty oppressive in my meta and losing 2 creatures to Jitte as soon as it connects sucks. Also back in the day everything died to Punishing Fire since we used our graveyard for DTT. Now we actually have a pretty good fighting chance against BUG thanks to the Angler.
Now I'm still a big fan of Abrupt Decay, but seeing Grixis 3-2-1 sketchy mana base means I could only board it in against Miracles or Shardless, but what about 4-Wasteland decks where I still might want it? So here's my idea:
ANT often splashes green in the SB, why not just throw in an additional Tropical in the SB and include up to 4 Decays you can have postboard? It's just so good against many decks postboard and while it makes us more vulnerable to Submerge many people don't bring it in, at least in the second game, right?

So here's my list:

Lands (18):
4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
3x Volcanic Island
2x Underground Sea
1x Tropical Island
4x Wasteland

Creatures (13):
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Delver of Secrets
3x Young Pyromancer
2x Gurmag Angler

Spells (29):
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
3x Gitaxian Probe
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Stifle
4x Lightning Bolt
1x Spell Pierce
1x Forked Bolt

Sideboard (15):
1x Pithing Needle
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Invasive Surgery
1x Pyroblast
1x Hydroblast
1x Divert
3x Cabal Therapy
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Krosan Grip
1x Fire Covenant
1x Tropical Island

updated (04.03.)

I chose the Krosan Grip over the 4th Decay because against something like Delver builds having too many Decay is not always ideal mana-wise. On the other hand DR it's an answer to Humility, Moat, Leyline of the Void, Batterskull etc.

Oh, and my opinion to the stifle-matter: Imo our mana base is just really fragile without Stifle against Wastelands so I really like it, especially in my list now where we rely on 2 u-seas and 2 tropicals (which works fine I can say coming from a 4c-Delver background, but really only with stifle).

I cut the fourth Stifle for a Forked Bolt to better deal with Deathrite Shamans since it significantly threatens our mana denial plan. Also I really want enough answers for Thalia, Mother of Runes, Stoneforge, Dark Confidant, other YPs etc.

So, has this been tried out yet? What's the experience with the softsplash to hardsplash?

Hey y'all,

I'm a recent Modern convert, and I think I'm going to invest a bit in Legacy. I was looking at manabases for Grixis Delver and had a quick question.

I've noticed a few different variations. Some decks just have 3 Volcanic Islands, 2 Underground Seas, and 1 Tropical Island. Others, however, go with 2-2-2, and add in a Badlands. Is there any strategy to this decision? I suppose, as the gentleman above me mentions, that having multiple green sources may be beneficial, but what's the upside to having the extra Badlands then?

Thanks,

McClain

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Originally Posted by McClain

Hey y'all,

I'm a recent Modern convert, and I think I'm going to invest a bit in Legacy. I was looking at manabases for Grixis Delver and had a quick question.

I've noticed a few different variations. Some decks just have 3 Volcanic Islands, 2 Underground Seas, and 1 Tropical Island. Others, however, go with 2-2-2, and add in a Badlands. Is there any strategy to this decision? I suppose, as the gentleman above me mentions, that having multiple green sources may be beneficial, but what's the upside to having the extra Badlands then?

Thanks,

McClain

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It depends on the creature base. If you run the standard
4 Delver
4 Deathrite
4 Pyromancer
2 Angler

You proberly run the 3 volcanics so you can start of with either Volcanic or Sea then go for the other one into the second Volcanic as third land. (not counting playing Wastelands) so you can cast Pyromancers and Bolt from there on.

For me, running 3 Anglers and no Pyromancer I rather have the extra black mana. So I swap the third Volcanic for a Badlands and have a more reliant Deathrite drain activation.
The Badlands, although some on this forum disagree, helps your manabase against Wasteland. Going for Volcanic or Sea then for the other one, then (again not counting Wastelands) going for the Badlands as third land, you always have 3 types of mana availeble even when one gets Wasted.

The single Tropical is there for the Deathrite, so you can hate on reanimate, dredge decks, and stuff like that. It also allows you to run some green cards sideboard.

If you run 2 tropicals, you can run green cards main deck without too much fear of being Wasted out of the game. It's good if you want to run Goyf, Goose or Decay main.

I would just sleeve up some proxies and test before you buy the Dual lands and see what works for you.

Lands you basicly always want for Grixis:
2 Sea
2 Volcanic
1 Tropical
1 flex spot (volcanic/tropical/badlands)
4 Wasteland
8 Fetch land (4 Delta and 4 Tarn would also fetch you the Badlands if you choose to run it)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by McClain

Hey y'all,

I'm a recent Modern convert, and I think I'm going to invest a bit in Legacy. I was looking at manabases for Grixis Delver and had a quick question.

I've noticed a few different variations. Some decks just have 3 Volcanic Islands, 2 Underground Seas, and 1 Tropical Island. Others, however, go with 2-2-2, and add in a Badlands. Is there any strategy to this decision? I suppose, as the gentleman above me mentions, that having multiple green sources may be beneficial, but what's the upside to having the extra Badlands then?

Thanks,

McClain

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Although on the land base it's only a small difference between a volcanic and a tropical, these are actually 2 different decks:
With 2-2-2 (and sometimes a badlands/taiga/bayou) you're playing actual 4-color-delver, also caled bUrg. You can find the thread here:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...eck-bUrg-Tempo
It's a less finetuned list which partly comes because with actual 4 colors you can play a lot besides your 4 Deathrites and 4 Delvers: True Name Nemesis, Gurmag Angler, Tarmogoyf and Nimble Mongoose are the most played.
Why no Young Pyromancer? Because with 4x YP and 4x Bolt you want 3 Volcanics again, also he's only really good with Gitaxian Probe and Cabal Therapy, so you're basically at Grixis again where the 3-2-1 mana base is better.
With the 4th maindeck color in bUrg comes the ability to play Abrupt Decay maindeck and green spells in the sideboard against "fair" decks. Since in Legacy there's a ton of Wastelands running around (pretty much only played by "fair" decks, but not Miracles") it's a bad idea to play green spells against such a deck with only a Tropical since these decks also run removal against DRS. That means that Abrupt Decay in a Grixis Sideboard is really only good against Miracles, maybe MUD because they don't play removal against your Deathrite. You want it against various Goyf-decks too though, so it's kind of a wasted sideboard slot because now you also have to pack in additional removal and stuff like that. Here's bUrg's advantage. Generally it's a better deck against lands, 4cloam and Miracles, but less versatile especially against fair decks.

In Grixis here you don't generally run Spell Pierces/Snares and stuff like that but instead go for the discard, bUrg plays more like RUG with Abrupt Decay and Deathrite. I wouldn't recommend bUrg though if you don't want to play Tarmogoyf. Your answers might be better there, but your threats are far slower when compared to BUG, RUG and Grixis, not allowing you to take advantage fast enough once you've disrupted your opponent.

It doesn't help that sites like mtgtop8 and coverages often mix up these two archetypes either, it's like calling TES (The Epic Storm) and ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) both just "Storm".
Hope this post was kinda clear, feel free to ask questions.

That's very helpful, thanks. I'm definitely looking at the 4 Delver, 4 Pyromancer, 4 Deathrite, 2 Gurmag Angler package, so the only question is splashing the second green source for Abrupt Decay maindeck. Pyromancer and Cabal Therapy are actually two of the reasons I'm excited about the deck, Therapy is one of my top-5 magic cards and as a Dredge player I've gotten fairly accurate with them (though I suppose I need to learn to aim at different things now).

Most of the lists I'm looking at seem as though they have 4 flex spots for spells- some run 4 Stifle, some run 2 Decay and 2 Stifle, others add in cards like Spell Pierce and Forked Bolt. If, let's say, I decide not to run the Abrupt Decay (which is what I'm leaning toward), is it worth it to have something other than 4 Stifles to make the Miracles match-up better?

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Originally Posted by McClain

That's very helpful, thanks. I'm definitely looking at the 4 Delver, 4 Pyromancer, 4 Deathrite, 2 Gurmag Angler package, so the only question is splashing the second green source for Abrupt Decay maindeck. Pyromancer and Cabal Therapy are actually two of the reasons I'm excited about the deck, Therapy is one of my top-5 magic cards and as a Dredge player I've gotten fairly accurate with them (though I suppose I need to learn to aim at different things now).

Most of the lists I'm looking at seem as though they have 4 flex spots for spells- some run 4 Stifle, some run 2 Decay and 2 Stifle, others add in cards like Spell Pierce and Forked Bolt. If, let's say, I decide not to run the Abrupt Decay (which is what I'm leaning toward), is it worth it to have something other than 4 Stifles to make the Miracles match-up better?

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The thing that many people seem to forget about stifle is that it actually protects your own mana base against Wastelands, especially against other Delver decks (especially those with Stifles on their own) and Life from the Loam decks (buying you a lot of time). You only have 2 U-seas which is not that much and it can happen that your opponent either wastes both of them or just denies you the access with Stifle.
That said you could run a package of 2 Stifles and 2 Cabal Therapies in the mainboard which I thought about, too. The reason why I didn't was because I figured out I'd rather have 4 Stifles in my 75 (speaking of pet cards) and I really didn't want to pack any in the SB.

The 2 decays mainboard really just get played by the 4c-Delver lists because they run 2 green sources and even there it's greedy and only acceptable (imo) with 4 Stifles maindeck. When you run Pyromancer and Bolt you want to have 3 red sources though. Given that you want all your lands to be blue and only play 18 with 8 fetches for Brainstorm and 4 Wastelands there's simply no room. Another awkwardness I found with 4c-Delver is that you always want access to 3 lands for optimal mana, with Grixis it's done with Useas and Volc alone.

Some people play 1 Badlands/Taiga or whatnot, personally I dislike it because you get easier wasted off blue and your Dazes aren't always online, not to speak the the times you can't cast Ponder with your 1-land openener or hold up stifle while playing other (blue) stuff.

Just in case you haven't read the article about CT. It's old, but the quintessence is still up-to-date:
http://www.channelfireball.com/home/...erapy-session/

Against Miracles specifically: Preboard is pretty weird and you're just off to the races. Gitaxian Probe is excellent here because it gives you an idea on how you want to use your stifles. Cabal Therapy wouldn't be a worse card there too, though. Just name Brainstorm whenever you name blind and he has blue up, otherwise Counterbalance is the go-to (though you shouldn't name it if he could've already cast it around Daze).

Postsideboard is more difficult: Many lists online play up to 3 or even 4 Pyroblast/REB just to counter Counterbalance (though getting Brainstorm should be nice, too). The problem is that running Abrupt Decays in the SB with only 2 green sources really only allows you to side them in against decks with no Wastelands. Though I guess you could get away with 1 against Jund/Shardless, perhaps against Delver when you play enough Stifles. Again there's no go-to-recipe, it's just more likely that you get screwed on mana here. Whenever you test new mana bases out it's propably best to test against RUG-Delver and Death&Taxes, at least that's what I do.

So yeah, that's basically why people hate Counterbalance I guess: It's not that it's undefeatable, it just forces the whole format to play either Abrupt Decay, Red Elemental Blast or Aether Vial/Cavern of Souls.

Anyways, I hope I could help you out.

I'm trying to figure out why this deck is doing so well lately. I would be happy if someone could enlighten me on this.

Some things sticks out to me as big downsides:

Too little removal - Relying on only 4 bolts seems too risky, especially against DnT and Elves. I also rarely see additional removal in the sb.
Too little counterspells - Only 4 daze and 4 fow seems too little against combo and early bombs like blood moon, chalice, trini etc.
No artifact destruction in sb. E.g: Calcano's list has no cards against artifacts.
No way to deal with goyfs outside of combat, except the usual 2 submerges in sb.

Because of the low amount of counterspells, no hexproof creatures, and no way to deal with a resolved counterbalance, this deck seems like the worst tempo deck against Miracles on paper.

I thought the whole reason to play the deck was because of the powerful interaction between YP, Probe and Therapy, which also filled the role in the lacking of more counterspells and removal, but you don't play therapies in main, and it even seems like you rarely side them in.

Why play this deck instead of RUG, BUG or 4c(with goyfs and decays)?

Thanks for answers!

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Originally Posted by echofish

I'm trying to figure out why this deck is doing so well lately. I would be happy if someone could enlighten me on this.

Some things sticks out to me as big downsides:

Too little removal - Relying on only 4 bolts seems too risky, especially against DnT and Elves. I also rarely see additional removal in the sb.
Too little counterspells - Only 4 daze and 4 fow seems too little against combo and early bombs like blood moon, chalice, trini etc.
No artifact destruction in sb. E.g: Calcano's list has no cards against artifacts.
No way to deal with goyfs outside of combat, except the usual 2 submerges in sb.

Because of the low amount of counterspells, no hexproof creatures, and no way to deal with a resolved counterbalance, this deck seems like the worst tempo deck against Miracles on paper.

I thought the whole reason to play the deck was because of the powerful interaction between YP, Probe and Therapy, which also filled the role in the lacking of more counterspells and removal, but you don't play therapies in main, and it even seems like you rarely side them in.

Why play this deck instead of RUG, BUG or 4c(with goyfs and decays)?

Thanks for answers!

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You're right in that there aren't a lot of ways to deal with a Goyf outside of counterspells, but Angler will be larger than Goyf in most circumstances, and even comes built-in with Delve which allows you to minimize your own contribution to the size of Goyf. Meanwhile, Deathrite doesn't get to dodge removal like the Goose, but it provides mana fixing which helps to offset the damage done by opponents' Wastelands, and it provides a consistent clock that also happens to be disruptive to certain gameplans (i.e. Lands, Reanimator, Snapcaster, Threshold) by its nature.

Daze goes a long way when you're also playing Stifle and Wasteland. Trust me when I say Daze is absurd in this deck. This is easily the best deck for it, due to it also being the best Stifle+Waste deck IMO. The reason it's the best Stifle+Waste deck is because you get to play Deathrite and Bolt: Deathrite allows you to stay on curve even when you're Wasting your opponent, and Bolt gives you that extra bit of reach to take a half-turn or so off the clock.

The result of this mana denial package being so strong is that you can also trim a card here and there to fit in Spell Pierce, and that card is just as good as Daze in this deck, although serving a different purpose. I wouldn't show up to a large tournament with this deck without at least 2 Spell Pierce main, but that might just be me.

As far as this being the worst tempo deck against Miracles, that may be correct. You do have access to Abrupt Decay out of the sideboard, though. I feel like you may also be undervaluing Young Pyromancer in this deck, because it's an army in a can. If your Miracles opponent doesn't immediately cast Swords on it, their only out quickly becomes Terminus, and since you have Stifle to help interfere with that, Pyromancer is very strong against them.

I think you actually commonly bring Therapy in. Typically in the fair matchups, where you cut Force on the play and Daze on the draw, you bring in the Therapies to replace the card you cut. Therapy is often better in games 2 and 3 anyway, since your ability to name cards in the blind is much stronger. It's also a strong default plan, so when you don't have a specific plan for a deck, you can just bring in Therapy and get some value.

And regarding artifact destruction, I personally sideboard Ancient Grudge and would advocate having something in the sideboard for them. But you might be surprised how little hard removal you really need. Therapy comes in against Stoneforge decks and is an effective answer to them searching something out with Stoneforge.

As far as why to play this deck over the other variants:
- 4-Color Delver: Grixis has a more stable mana base than 4CD. Abrupt Decay is actually pretty tough to splash for. Young Pyromancer sort of trumps Goyf, since you can churn out chump blockers for days and can eventually alpha strike back once you've built up a sizable force, and as I said before, Angler does a passable Goyf impression, and can't be Decayed, which is sweet.
- RUG: You get Deathrite Shaman, which does a lot of work. You also get to play black sideboard cards, which I think go a longer way than green ones do, although you're not even shut out of green, really. You're less vulnerable to a late RiP, since you can establish a board before it comes down. This results in the opponents that pack RIP running it right into Daze/Pierce.
- BUG: You get Lightning Bolt, which is just above and beyond the removal available to you in BUG since it can also function as reach. Decay is actually not that great of a removal spell in a tempo deck since you're often investing 2 mana and warping your mana just to answer a 2-mana (or, Thor forbid, a 1-mana) card, so you're actually losing tempo. You're a better Daze deck. You're better at going underneath some of the grindier decks in the format.

These reasons, among others, were the reasons why I chose this deck over the others. However, I'll be the first to admit that those other decks have advantages over this one. It's largely a matter of personal preference and metagame composition - but the evidence suggests this one is currently the best positioned in the overall metagame.

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Originally Posted by echofish

I'm trying to figure out why this deck is doing so well lately. I would be happy if someone could enlighten me on this.

Why play this deck instead of RUG, BUG or 4c(with goyfs and decays)?

Thanks for answers!

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Basicly what Delvis said. It's dependeble on the mate and your own preferense.

If you have a pack of Goyf and like to play them, go for RUG or BUG.
If you want to build up advantage you can use Pyromancers or something like SFM (is Patriot still a deck?).

The lack of removal spells in the standard lists is mainly becouse you have Pyromancer tokens and generally don't care about anything that doesn't fly or doesn't have trample. You just build tokens and chump or backswing for more.
You do have a couple of flex slots in the deck that can give you Spell Pierces or something like Forket Bolt to add counters or removal. This depends on the meta like every other tempo deck with a few flex slots.
Personally I don't like to have only 4 Daze and 4 FoW and therefore play 2-3 Pierce/Snare as extra counters.
Post board you fix the lack of counters by bringing in the Therapy. Therapy + Probe + Pyromancer is backbreaking for combo decks. You add a higher clock while disrupting or drawing cards, it's the perfect match against combo.

Pyromancer on itself, if you play it at the right time will deal with Miracle decks becouse it "dodges" removal spells by adding tokens on the field. The only way to deal with this is to sweep the board, much like dealing with Goose. Also Angler dodges Counterbalance becouse of it's manacost.

But like with most decks, you need to know how to pilot it against other decks. Deathrite and Pyromancer have some more depth then Goyf and Goose for instance.

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Originally Posted by echofish

I'm trying to figure out why this deck is doing so well lately. I would be happy if someone could enlighten me on this.

Some things sticks out to me as big downsides:

Too little removal - Relying on only 4 bolts seems too risky, especially against DnT and Elves. I also rarely see additional removal in the sb.
Too little counterspells - Only 4 daze and 4 fow seems too little against combo and early bombs like blood moon, chalice, trini etc.
No artifact destruction in sb. E.g: Calcano's list has no cards against artifacts.
No way to deal with goyfs outside of combat, except the usual 2 submerges in sb.

Because of the low amount of counterspells, no hexproof creatures, and no way to deal with a resolved counterbalance, this deck seems like the worst tempo deck against Miracles on paper.

I thought the whole reason to play the deck was because of the powerful interaction between YP, Probe and Therapy, which also filled the role in the lacking of more counterspells and removal, but you don't play therapies in main, and it even seems like you rarely side them in.

Why play this deck instead of RUG, BUG or 4c(with goyfs and decays)?

Thanks for answers!

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I really had the same thoughts/opinion on the deck like you and am still not 100% sure if it's better than the other Delver strategies but it's defenetly stronger in practice than it looks on paper...
There is also a interesting article in the "format & article discussion" thread who shows that most Legacy pros count this deck to the top 5 best decks of the format, many of them even voted it to the 3rd place, so something must be good ;-)

Other topic. ..
What do you guys think about the non-stifle list such the one from Dylan Donegan with 2 Pierce + 2 Forked Bolt instead of the 4 Stifle?
What I like is that you have a better creature MU and combo is a bit better too but it's clearly weaker against Miracles & Shardless BUG...

I also tried the stifle list with 3 YP 3 Probe and 3 Therapys in the side to make room for the 2 pierces because pierce is currently to good not to play but isnt exactly this trio the reason for playing this over other Delver strategies? So why reducing the numbers of it?
Really unsure about this :-/

What do you guys think about this 4 Stifle vs 2 Pierce/2 FB topic? Any experience from someone who played or tested both versions?

Updated the primer to account for bannings and cleaned up the History/deck choices a bit. Let me know if you guys think anything else should be in there!

Re: discussion at hand: I think this deck is the best version because it has the most velocity when compared to other mana-denial centric versions. What do I mean by that? What I mean to say is that this deck capitalizes on the opponent not doing anything better than any other version. If RUG Stifles someone off lands, they beat in with a delver or Tarmogoyf, but the clock stays the same. With Pyromancer, any and all spells you play when your opponent fumbles really increase your clock, giving the opponent the least amount of time to find an answer.

Also, thanks to Angler, there is no 1 axis that hates on this deck.

You would think this version would be weak to Miracles, but the beauty of this version is that you don't need to overextend to the board to pressure them. 1 Young Pyromancer and 2 tokens basically warrant a Terminus. You need to keep Counterbalance off the board at all costs though. Once they resolve that it is very hard to win.

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Originally Posted by Manipulato

Other topic. ..
What do you guys think about the non-stifle list such the one from Dylan Donegan with 2 Pierce + 2 Forked Bolt instead of the 4 Stifle?
What I like is that you have a better creature MU and combo is a bit better too but it's clearly weaker against Miracles & Shardless BUG...

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For me, no Stifle = no go.
Half of my winning games is trough having more resources then the other side of the table. I think that hitting Stifles and Wasteland or deny Wasteland hits is a massive part of tempo decks in general.
Stifle has good use in about 90% of the match-ups (I feel like the only time I don't want them in the deck is against MUD and some variations of NIC-fit/Post-like-decks), where forket bolt is only really usefull against some aggro strategies. Also, although it's perhaps a little less relevant, you drop 2 blue cards for non-blue cards to pitch to FoW.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by echofish

I'm trying to figure out why this deck is doing so well lately. I would be happy if someone could enlighten me on this.

Some things sticks out to me as big downsides:

Too little removal - Relying on only 4 bolts seems too risky, especially against DnT and Elves. I also rarely see additional removal in the sb.
Too little counterspells - Only 4 daze and 4 fow seems too little against combo and early bombs like blood moon, chalice, trini etc.
No artifact destruction in sb. E.g: Calcano's list has no cards against artifacts.
No way to deal with goyfs outside of combat, except the usual 2 submerges in sb.

Because of the low amount of counterspells, no hexproof creatures, and no way to deal with a resolved counterbalance, this deck seems like the worst tempo deck against Miracles on paper.

I thought the whole reason to play the deck was because of the powerful interaction between YP, Probe and Therapy, which also filled the role in the lacking of more counterspells and removal, but you don't play therapies in main, and it even seems like you rarely side them in.

Why play this deck instead of RUG, BUG or 4c(with goyfs and decays)?

Thanks for answers!

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Really because of the ability to disrupt their mana and keep your own velocity high b/c if deathrite shaman. Also this deck attacks on multiple axises with DRS, angler, and YP. Also vs other delver decks, it can just grind hard. Maybe not like BUG with MD lili and Bob, but it can certainly play the control role vs RUG delver easily.

I've also been playing with 3 bob in the SB to bring in more grindy matchups where you want to both be threat dense and have the CA to grind with the best of them.

I can only second the things mentioned and perhaps go a bit specific in terms of stifle:

Stifle is the absolute go-to card imo:
1. Against Midrange unlike some Delver decks that play only Daze/Wasteland you don't get screwed because your opponent has like 3 basics he can just fetch.
2. Against Storm Stifle is almost a Flusterstorm thanks to the ability to stifle the storm trigger.
3. Against Show&Tell you prevent them from fetching for basics, making your Dazes not dead! Also Stifling Griselbrand or the Annihilator Trigger can come in handy. Postboard your Therapies are super easy becasue you just name Show&Tell most of the time.
4. Against Miracles thanks to Gitaxian Probe you at best see what they're dealing with and can decide wether to play mana denial or more midrangy, denying their Terminus.
5. Against Lands/4c-loam preventing the opponent from wasting you out of the game for just 1 turn longer can often win you the game, especially with a YP out. Also in the longer fights where the opponent has Wastelands, Stages and Ports and you have Wastelands it can prevent him from getting an edge by preventing him to copy DD in response to your wasteland e.g.
6. Against other Delver decks thanks to both sides playing with Daze (often MVP there) Stifle really allows you to control the mana of the game, often times acting offensively or defensively, depending on your hand (do you need the mana he's trying to waste? do you want to cut him off red so you can stick a YP? Did you already waste him?) 5 and 6 imo often times getting neglected, forgetting that we actually play a pretty fragile manabase ourselves, especially the 2 underground seas can get cut off when the opponent has a good draw.

Against Death&Taxes, MUD and etc. Stifle is just not really good, even though it has some narrow implications. But that's fine, that's what we have a sideboard for.

To the Cabal Therapy in the SB and why:
- Often times you want to hit your CB in the early turns. That's not really possible against an unknown opponent who perhaps just plays a fetchland and passes. Stifle on the other side allows you to play to the board, stifling his land in the early turns is just a "good" play, no matter what he's playing.
-Personally I find myself bringing in CB a lot. But that doesn't mean it should be in the mainboard. It's just that postboard I have an exact plan what I want to name, often times naming cards in the blind that are strong against me, but also possibly 4 ofs, e.g. Hymn to Tourach. Preboard all you can really name is brainstorm because that's what blue decks play, but there's nothing worse than naming Hymn against a player that played an underground sea only to find out he's playing Stifle-BUG, Grixis or Storm. You just wasted a card and it's a long time until you get a Pyromancer token sometimes.

lack of artifact destruction in the SB:
- Personally I wouldn't go without, but that always depends on your local metagame. When you look at online lists I guess that there's just not a lot of people playing MUD or 4c-loam. Stoneblade players on the other side just get Cabal Therapied, so Artifact destruction is really only necessary against Chalice of the Void.
Just look at this:
http://thegraymerchants.com/?p=1400
The first deck you actually need artifact destruction because of Chalice is 4c-loam on 12th place and they don't even have Chalice on the first turn most of the time, giving you time to dig for a FoW. Postboard you can just name Chalice on your first turn and propably be fine.
On the other side there's a lot of Delver, Miracles, Elves and other stuff. All in all Ancient Grudge is just not really viable.

I hope that above I could explain why we do play enough counterspells thanks to Stifle.
The lack of removalspells gets negated by the fact that most of the time it's just us that have the biggest/most creatures (as mentioned above): We play 14 creatures unlike most Delver decks that play 12.
Gurmag Angler is really hard to deal with and the only Mainboard Legacy cards to deal with him are either White or Liliana of the Veil which is horrible against YP (and can be stifled). Against BUG decks that rely on Disfigure and Abrupt Decay Gurmag Angler is the MVP.
Pyromancer on the other hand is a card there are not that many good 1-for-1 answers against in most mainboards once he gets 1-2 tokens, at best Terminus or some Spell Snares and Forked Bolts. The thing is that these answers have to come immediately, YP is very much like Dark Confidant here. He doesn't give you card advantage otherwise though, he just kills the opponent.

Removal to Goyf: The logic behind this is that with YP and Angler you just block the way. Submerge is just here to buy time or to return Tarmogoyf so you can swing in for basically lethal.


That said, I still like my 3 SB Abrupt Decays thus far, my metagame is quite diverse and having answers to creatures, artifacts AND enchantments is just a luxury I want to have. Again this is something I can only pull off thanks to stifle, otherwise my mana would get wrecked by other Delver decks, even with 2 tropicals and 2 undergrounds.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Agrippa91

I can only second the things mentioned and perhaps go a bit specific in terms of stifle:

Stifle is the absolute go-to card imo:
1. Against Midrange unlike some Delver decks that play only Daze/Wasteland you don't get screwed because your opponent has like 3 basics he can just fetch.
2. Against Storm Stifle is almost a Flusterstorm thanks to the ability to stifle the storm trigger.
3. Against Show&Tell you prevent them from fetching for basics, making your Dazes not dead! Also Stifling Griselbrand or the Annihilator Trigger can come in handy. Postboard your Therapies are super easy becasue you just name Show&Tell most of the time.
4. Against Miracles thanks to Gitaxian Probe you at best see what they're dealing with and can decide wether to play mana denial or more midrangy, denying their Terminus.
5. Against Lands/4c-loam preventing the opponent from wasting you out of the game for just 1 turn longer can often win you the game, especially with a YP out. Also in the longer fights where the opponent has Wastelands, Stages and Ports and you have Wastelands it can prevent him from getting an edge by preventing him to copy DD in response to your wasteland e.g.
6. Against other Delver decks thanks to both sides playing with Daze (often MVP there) Stifle really allows you to control the mana of the game, often times acting offensively or defensively, depending on your hand (do you need the mana he's trying to waste? do you want to cut him off red so you can stick a YP? Did you already waste him?) 5 and 6 imo often times getting neglected, forgetting that we actually play a pretty fragile manabase ourselves, especially the 2 underground seas can get cut off when the opponent has a good draw.

Against Death&Taxes, MUD and etc. Stifle is just not really good, even though it has some narrow implications. But that's fine, that's what we have a sideboard for.

To the Cabal Therapy in the SB and why:
- Often times you want to hit your CB in the early turns. That's not really possible against an unknown opponent who perhaps just plays a fetchland and passes. Stifle on the other side allows you to play to the board, stifling his land in the early turns is just a "good" play, no matter what he's playing.
-Personally I find myself bringing in CB a lot. But that doesn't mean it should be in the mainboard. It's just that postboard I have an exact plan what I want to name, often times naming cards in the blind that are strong against me, but also possibly 4 ofs, e.g. Hymn to Tourach. Preboard all you can really name is brainstorm because that's what blue decks play, but there's nothing worse than naming Hymn against a player that played an underground sea only to find out he's playing Stifle-BUG, Grixis or Storm. You just wasted a card and it's a long time until you get a Pyromancer token sometimes.

lack of artifact destruction in the SB:
- Personally I wouldn't go without, but that always depends on your local metagame. When you look at online lists I guess that there's just not a lot of people playing MUD or 4c-loam. Stoneblade players on the other side just get Cabal Therapied, so Artifact destruction is really only necessary against Chalice of the Void.
Just look at this:
http://thegraymerchants.com/?p=1400
The first deck you actually need artifact destruction because of Chalice is 4c-loam on 12th place and they don't even have Chalice on the first turn most of the time, giving you time to dig for a FoW. Postboard you can just name Chalice on your first turn and propably be fine.
On the other side there's a lot of Delver, Miracles, Elves and other stuff. All in all Ancient Grudge is just not really viable.

I hope that above I could explain why we do play enough counterspells thanks to Stifle.
The lack of removalspells gets negated by the fact that most of the time it's just us that have the biggest/most creatures (as mentioned above): We play 14 creatures unlike most Delver decks that play 12.
Gurmag Angler is really hard to deal with and the only Mainboard Legacy cards to deal with him are either White or Liliana of the Veil which is horrible against YP (and can be stifled). Against BUG decks that rely on Disfigure and Abrupt Decay Gurmag Angler is the MVP.
Pyromancer on the other hand is a card there are not that many good 1-for-1 answers against in most mainboards once he gets 1-2 tokens, at best Terminus or some Spell Snares and Forked Bolts. The thing is that these answers have to come immediately, YP is very much like Dark Confidant here. He doesn't give you card advantage otherwise though, he just kills the opponent.

Removal to Goyf: The logic behind this is that with YP and Angler you just block the way. Submerge is just here to buy time or to return Tarmogoyf so you can swing in for basically lethal.


That said, I still like my 3 SB Abrupt Decays thus far, my metagame is quite diverse and having answers to creatures, artifacts AND enchantments is just a luxury I want to have. Again this is something I can only pull off thanks to stifle, otherwise my mana would get wrecked by other Delver decks, even with 2 tropicals and 2 undergrounds.

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I disagree on point 2 & 3.
Stifle is most of the time quite useless against Storm Combo because they discard it with they're flashbacked discard from past in flames! I played more than once against them with Stifle and it's not a problematic card when they casted a discard spell earlier & go for the PIF kill. Pierce is better here in my experience. Forked Bolt would be dead, ok.

About point 3...
Sure stifling a fetch is ok against them but I'm searching for something more impactful than just that. Negating the Anhilitor or Griselbrand trigger is not the place where I want to be! Sure sometimes there will be situations where this can buy you exactly the 1 turn you need to win but that scenario means that S&T already resolved and that should not happen. So Pierce would be defenetly better here too.

Dont get me wrong, I dont want to downgrade the power of Stifle but Im really unsure which package I should go (4 Stifle or 2 Pierce/2 FB). The argument with stifling a fetch is too weak for me, it should do more than just this to make it the right/better choice for me. Especially because Stifle is very Otp Otd dependent & easy to play around. I find it really strong against Miracles & Shardless for example because they have more targets then just the fetches (Miracle trigger, Cascade Trigger, Visions etc.)

At the end of the day it's meta dependent I think. Wanted to hear people who have experience with both versions...

Could you share your list with us?

Greetings

I showed my list a few posts earlier:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post931068

To the point you make around Stifle vs. Spell Pierce:
1. vs Show and Tell:
Griselbrand and Annihilator were just an additional thing (though stifling annihilator triggers can buy you a turn vs. Show&Tell and win the game vs. Sneak Attack), the main emphasis is on stifling their lands so they can't just get all their basics. Since they don't play discard they have to go for a turn with their combo AND their protection, making Daze a very good card most of the times because they only have limited mana to work with (you flusterstormed my Fow? Sure, I'll now Daze your Show&Tell). Sure Stifle isn't super good in this matchup, our deck especially postboard is really good against them though.
You say that Playing around Stifle is easy but honestly, playing around Spell Pierce is way easier. When you know your opponent has Pierce you just have to wait for lands or rituals to play around it, you can't play around stifle in that way, when the Grixis player has mana open you must prepare yourself for dealing with it.

2. vs ANT:
In the early turns people often will side in Empty the Warrens to go for a quick kill, often times with no protection. Stifling an ETW for 5 can be key.
Often times people can't go for Past in Flames with an active Deathrite up unless they have 2 tutors in the gy. When you have stifle they'd also have to have 2 discard spells, otherwise they can't go for their combo.
I know that you don't always have Deathrite, but considering that your opponent HAS to get rid of exactly this card before he goes off is pretty strong in my experience. You propably played against more ANT than me though, I have my knowledge from coverages and playing against it occasionally on tournaments.
It's just my experience that ANT can play around Pierce pretty easily while, again, they have to get rid of Stifle.
But yeah, I also have a Hydroblast I bring in against ANT to minimize their chance of going for Past in Flames since they side out Ad Nauseam most of the times.
There's the added bonus of seeing their hand with Gitaxian Probe and sometimes they just rely on a fetchland so heavily (maybe also for brainstorm shuffling) that you can just get them.

With Spell Pierce I'm also often times having the feeling that people just play it and are happy they got something out of it after all while especially with Gitaxian Probe Stifle can get really versatile (do I actually have to keep it up? Should I rather stifle lands or storm/miracle triggers?).
Stifle isn't really bad in any matchups Spell Pierce is good at (besides against Show&Tell which I would want to play against all day), right?

I'm also not saying my way of looking at the things is right, it's just that I have the experience that while Daze and Wastelands are "ok" in this deck, only with Stifle are they actually "good". Like in my first point described when the Storm player fetches for basics your Wastelands and your Dazes are pretty much dead, but when he fetches for one color and you stifle him off a color he can struggle, or he has to play a nonbasic he drew and you can wasteland it, screwing his colors and making your dazes better.

It's kinda like the synergy between Probe, Pyromancer and Therapy: Each of the pieces synergises good with each other Piece, but only together they're really insane.

Edit: To my list: I have some weird cards in them, mostly Blue Elemental Blast and Invasive Surgery (which I want to test already).
They fullfill multiple roles:
1. Both of them counter at least one sort of removal for Pyromancer, namely Bolt, Forked Bolt and sorcery sweepers. Getting to untap with a Pyromancer in a Delver Mirror is huge and sometimes even a game-winner.
2. Additional counters against Burn
3. Surgery is good against GB Midrange AND Combo. Getting Hymn to Tourach is nice. The best things to counter though are Life from the Loam (we get 4 different cards very frequently) or even Cabal Therapy and Dread Return from Dredge. Or of course like every important card from Storm.
It's really a pity I have to keep in one surgical for Punishing Fire, otherwise it too would be an Invasive Surgery.