Esper Mentor

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Originally Posted by TheArchitect

I would not play stoneforge in a meta where Kolaghan's Command is in a quarter of the decks.

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I'm highly skeptical that 4c Czech Pile and Grixis Pyromancer make up 25% of the metagame.

Regardless, K Command doesn't make SFM bad. K Command is still a 2-for-1 regardless of which modes it uses. In actuality, the Baleful Strix body is just as bad against them as the Stoneforge Mystic body is, and both replace themselves. The difference is that there are no wrong threats, only wrong answers. Most lists run 2 K Command... if they don't have it, or if we can counter it, the equipment can easily take over the game. If they do have it, it's still a 2-for-1 like it would have been otherwise.

Arguably, I'm more concerned with how Gurmag Angler lines up against the massive amount of Baleful Strix being played right now. Strix extends into Food Chain, Aluren, Shardless, Esper Stoneblade and Deathblade, in addition to Grixis Pyromancer and Czech Pile. I'd rather fight with Spell Pierce and Flusterstorm over K Command than be forced into using a Swords to Plowshares on a Baleful Strix.

At any rate, I'm not sure that Czech Pile is as bad as everyone is claiming. Probe/Therapy + Mentor is what wins that matchup... everything else is just a distraction to force them into trading resources. I'm fine baiting out removal with DRS and SFM to ensure that my Mentor sticks.

Against the rest of the format, I think there are pros and cons of SFM vs Baleful Strix, but I personally prefer SFM. However, I realize I am in the minority with that opinion, and I'm okay with that.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

At any rate, I'm not sure that Czech Pile is as bad as everyone is claiming. Probe/Therapy + Mentor is what wins that matchup... everything else is just a distraction to force them into trading resources. I'm fine baiting out removal with DRS and SFM to ensure that my Mentor sticks.

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I agree, they have a lot of reactive mid-late games that don't like up against mentor, and get taken by therapy anyways.

I am definitely bias as well, in that I have just gotten blown out too many times by discard and/or K command that I have sworn off of SFM. I don't think SFM is bad or out of place in this archtype.

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Originally Posted by TheArchitect

I agree, they have a lot of reactive mid-late games that don't like up against mentor, and get taken by therapy anyways.

I am definitely bias as well, in that I have just gotten blown out too many times by discard and/or K command that I have sworn off of SFM. I don't think SFM is bad or out of place in this archtype.

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In all fairness, I do board out some or even all of my SFM package in quite a few matchups. Although, in some cases like against Elves, it is because I bring in sweepers to no longer rely on Jitte, and they board out alot of business to bring in discard and Abrupt Decay.

In most of the matchups where I do cut them, though, are matchups where I would also cut Baleful Strix and Gurmag Angler if I ran them instead... primarily combo matchups.

I just tuned in to Eternal weekend to see Hanni at 7-0-1 crush RUG delver. Goodjob and goodluck!

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Originally Posted by TheArchitect

I just tuned in to Eternal weekend to see Hanni at 7-0-1 crush RUG delver. Goodjob and goodluck!

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Hanni is in top 8. Super glad he won his round 11! Congrats!

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Originally Posted by Hanni

In all fairness, I do board out some or even all of my SFM package in quite a few matchups. Although, in some cases like against Elves, it is because I bring in sweepers to no longer rely on Jitte, and they board out alot of business to bring in discard and Abrupt Decay.

In most of the matchups where I do cut them, though, are matchups where I would also cut Baleful Strix and Gurmag Angler if I ran them instead... primarily combo matchups.

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Strangely enough, after watching the Top 8, overlooking the nerve issue, I still like TheArchitect's version better. Strix could have solve a lot of issues, not convince on SFM package whatsoever. But hey, they did get you into the Top 8 of 700+ players tournament.

I punted so unbelievably hard against BUG Delver in game 2 of the semifinals.

Anyway...

SFM was good for me throughout the Swiss. I think the Strix/Snapcaster version is good too, so I can't really say which version I think is better, but I like SFM in here. I will say that I would much rather play Tasigur over Gurmag Angler. This deck can grind out Czech Pile, as evidenced from my game 3 against it on camera in the quarterfinals, and Gurmag Angler does not line up well against Baleful Strix.

I probably won't write a report of the event, as I didn't take any notes and I played way too many rounds of REL magic this weekend (23 rounds in total). However, I did keep track of what I played against, and what my record was...

Swiss

R1 Eldrazi Stompy / Big Eldrazi Hybrid: 2-0
R2 Grixis Delver: 1-1-1
R3 Grixis Delver: 2-0
R4 4c Czech Pile: 2-1
R5 MUD: 2-0
R6 Grixis Delver: 2-0
R7 BW Deadguy Ale: 2-1
R8 RUG Delver: 2-1
R9 RG Lands: 2-0
R10 BUG Delver: 0-2
R11 GW Maverick: 1-0-1

Top 8

Quarterfinals 4c Czech Pile: 2-1
Semifinals BUG Delver: 0-2

There were many insane plays and many insane board states this weekend. I also hit extremely well with blind Cabal Therapy's this weekend, which felt really good every time.

Monastery Mentor is absurdly powerful, and I don't understand why there aren't many people playing it. The deck basically carried me to the Top 8. Gitaxian Probe made it very easy to figure out my best lines, Therapy dealt with big problems before they became problems, and Mentor brought me back from otherwise unwinnable game states.

Oh yea, I also got to live the deam against Elves in a Legacy challenge on Friday. Turn 1 DRS, turn 2 Mentor with double Probe, force him to lose his entire board blocking on turn 3 after I emptied his hand with Cabal Therapy's, and then killed him on turn 4.

Also, I had the most insane stack ever against Grixis Delver in round 3. I'm at 6 and my opponent has a flipped Delver and DRS in play. My opponent Bolts his own Deathrite after blocking my Batterskull equipped with an unactive Jitte to prevent me from getting counters or lifegain. In response, I cast Swords to Plowshares on his Delver. In response, he casts Spell Pierce on my Swords to Plowshares (I had two mana left open and he had a Daze in hand). In response, I Spell Pierce his Spell Pierce. In response, he hits my Spell Pierce with Pyroblast. In response, I cast Flusterstorm, assigning 3 copies to his Spell Pierce and 3 copies to his Lightning Bolt. Wowzers.

Against Eldrazi Stompy, in Game 1, he has a turn 2 TKS, takes 1 of my two StP. I send it farming. I tap out casting cantrips, and he resolves another TKS taking my 3rd StP. He follows up with two Matter Reshapers over the next couple of turns. My life total is gettng low, but a Mentor helps me stabilize somewhat. He plays a Reality Smasher that I have my 4th StP for, but I'm dangerously low in life at this point. A SFM into Batterskull comes down to help me actually stabilize. A Jace comes down and starts refilling my depleted hand while Battetskull and monk tokens hold it down. I put either 1 or 2 Deathrites into play at some point. A second Mentor comes down, and I put 4 monks into play (2 spells cast). He EOT tutors with Eye of Ugin for Ulamog, untaps and casts Ulamog, exiles both Mentors. I untap, bounce Ulamog with Jace, chain cast a few spells, and swing in for exactly lethal. It felt like I was playing with RG Lands, that's how many permanents I had on the battlefield.

Congrats on the finish, and thanks for a rundown on the matchups. Don't sweat the top 8 jitters, we have all been there it just isn't always on camera, and you still managed to have perfect blind therapy names.



I am going to a CFB 4k next weekend with Esper Mentor, so it is reassuring seeing you do so well with the archtype.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

Monastery Mentor is absurdly powerful, and I don't understand why there aren't many people playing it. The deck basically carried me to the Top 8. Gitaxian Probe made it very easy to figure out my best lines, Therapy dealt with big problems before they became problems, and Mentor brought me back from otherwise unwinnable game states.

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Hey hanni, first of all congratulations on your finish! I'm more in the deathblade thread, so it was exciting to see your list featured in the top 8. Although its very different from the deathblade lists our thread has been testing.

I actually had a question about Mentor. Just looking your list its clearly warped around Mentor. You've cut TNNs, thoughtseizes, and snapcasters from a typical deathblade list to make room for 4 mentors, 4 probes, and 4 cabal therapy. In general my question is do you feel Mentor is a "build around me" card? I have previously thought to try him in a more traditional deathblade list, but at the time i wasn't convinced the deck would support him without cards like probe. Given your success though it may be time to revisit the question.

Thanks!

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Originally Posted by First_Revenge

Hey hanni, first of all congratulations on your finish! I'm more in the deathblade thread, so it was exciting to see your list featured in the top 8. Although its very different from the deathblade lists our thread has been testing.

I actually had a question about Mentor. Just looking your list its clearly warped around Mentor. You've cut TNNs, thoughtseizes, and snapcasters from a typical deathblade list to make room for 4 mentors, 4 probes, and 4 cabal therapy. In general my question is do you feel Mentor is a "build around me" card? I have previously thought to try him in a more traditional deathblade list, but at the time i wasn't convinced the deck would support him without cards like probe. Given your success though it may be time to revisit the question.

Thanks!

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Mentor is absolutely a build-around-me kind of card. Mentor doesn't work well if you don't, but he feels like a Lingering Souls on steroids when you do. I would not play Mentor without 4 Brainstorm/Ponder/Probe and at least 3 Cabal Therapy. Probe/Therapy + Mentor is the real core of my deck... the Deathblade portion fills in the rest because it gives the deck a fantastic curve, additional must-answer threats, tons of flexibility and additional control options, and SFM is a great source of card advantage in most fair matchups.

I know the commentators were calling the deck Deathblade, but the deck is built around Mentor, not the other way around. Mentor Deathblade is probably the most correct naming convention for it, but I could just as easily have cut the SFM package for Strix/Snapcaster/Tasigur, and I think I still would have done well. Probe/Therapy + Mentor is just that good. I will say, though, that I have no intention of cutting SFM.

I am interested to test out this deck on MTGO.

TheArchitest : you seem to be very experienced with the deck. You said that you would not have 0 answer MD to Chalice and in your last version you actually don't have any and "only" two answer in the sideboard. You mentioned that it might be correct to play Abrupt Decay with Deathrite Shaman but with "only" 14 lands producing black or green, it looks pretty ambitious to me. You cut Back to Basics entirely, why ? How is your Eldrazi and Lands matchups ?

Hanni : Congratulations for your great result this weekend. It was interesting to watch you play this deck. Would you change something going forward ?

I fell like playing 1 or 2 more discard spells would be really good in the deck. T1 discard T2 SFM has always been a strong play (I have some experience with it as well since back in 2013 http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=4925&d=228443&f=LE ... 2013 ! time really flies ...) but there is this blue count problem... Would it be crazy to play 6 discard spells to improve our SFM and Mentor, maybe 2 Flusterstorm MD but to move our Force of Will in the sideboard ?

I wouldn't make any changes to my maindeck. The maindeck feels perfect.

The sideboard is a sideboard, which means that it changes as the metagame changes. Right now, I'm happy with it, and I feel that it gives me sufficient answers for the entire metagame, but there are definitely some slots that could be tweaked. I'm not 100% sure if the deck needs the 3rd Meddling Mage against combo, for example. If you're only playing in a local meta, the sideboard could be even more drastically changed to suit your specific needs.

For the most part though, I am satisfied with my 75, and I wouldn't make changes to it if I were to run it again at another large event.

EDIT: Also, I don't feel like the deck needs more discard. The 4 Therapy feels like more than enough, especially considering that a single Therapy can often hit 2+ cards in an opponent's hand between the original cast and the Flashback.

I had a single Therapy strip 4 cards out of my opponent's hand against BW Stoneblade. Turn 1 Probe + Therapy took 3 Thoughtseize, and then I later flashed it back and hit something else, a Liliana I think.

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Originally Posted by Shaka1333

I am interested to test out this deck on MTGO.

TheArchitest : you seem to be very experienced with the deck. You said that you would not have 0 answer MD to Chalice and in your last version you actually don't have any and "only" two answer in the sideboard. You mentioned that it might be correct to play Abrupt Decay with Deathrite Shaman but with "only" 14 lands producing black or green, it looks pretty ambitious to me. You cut Back to Basics entirely, why ? How is your Eldrazi and Lands matchups ?

Hanni : Congratulations for your great result this weekend. It was interesting to watch you play this deck. Would you change something going forward ?

I fell like playing 1 or 2 more discard spells would be really good in the deck. T1 discard T2 SFM has always been a strong play (I have some experience with it as well since back in 2013 http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=4925&d=228443&f=LE ... 2013 ! time really flies ...) but there is this blue count problem... Would it be crazy to play 6 discard spells to improve our SFM and Mentor, maybe 2 Flusterstorm MD but to move our Force of Will in the sideboard ?

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I have only recently gone to the dark side and started using Deathrite. After more amounts of testing, I don't think decay is worth playing as it makes the mana too greedy. And chalice is annoying but we don't autolose to it game 1 and post-board I have 1 EE, 1 disechant, 1 CJ, but I might actually swap an edict for another EE.


I found I was only bringing in back to basics for lands and eldrazi and thats not enough of the meta to justify 2 slots. Lands is probably 50-50 and Eldrazi I feel favored even without back to basics.


I have played the deck with 2 IOK, 4 therapy before and it was decent and something I have strongly considered trying again. The slots are tight though, and FoW is too good in this deck. Mentor is basically show tell in some matchups, a 3 mana spell that if you can resolve you win, so FoW is actually really strong. I'd happily cut FoW in grindy value decks, like Esper stoneblade or 4c control, since it is just the decks safety net against random stuff it can't deal with.

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Originally Posted by TheArchitect

I have only recently gone to the dark side and started using Deathrite. After more amounts of testing, I don't think decay is worth playing as it makes the mana too greedy. And chalice is annoying but we don't autolose to it game 1 and post-board I have 1 EE, 1 disechant, 1 CJ, but I might actually swap an edict for another EE.


I found I was only bringing in back to basics for lands and eldrazi and thats not enough of the meta to justify 2 slots. Lands is probably 50-50 and Eldrazi I feel favored even without back to basics.


I have played the deck with 2 IOK, 4 therapy before and it was decent and something I have strongly considered trying again. The slots are tight though, and FoW is too good in this deck. Mentor is basically show tell in some matchups, a 3 mana spell that if you can resolve you win, so FoW is actually really strong. I'd happily cut FoW in grindy value decks, like Esper stoneblade or 4c control, since it is just the decks safety net against random stuff it can't deal with.

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Back to Basics is definitely a less used card than something like EE, where I was bringing EE in against most matchups.

However, I like that B2B gives an angle of attack that this deck doesn't have. I brought it in against Eldrazi, MUD, RG Lands, Czech Pile, and BUG Delver (he transforms into a control deck postboard) during EW. It's definitely a flexible spot that could be cut, but it's so powerful in some matchups that I liked having it. I'm only on 1 B2B though, not 2.

Also, I only cut 2 FoW in my grindy matchups like Czech pile, because there are still bombs that need to be countered. Jace, Library, Kologhan's Command, Leovold, etc. The 1-for-2 is bad, but when the card you are countering would give them a 2-for-1 or better, it's break even or better, so it's fine.

There could be some matchups where extra discard could be better, but there are some matchups where I trim or even completely cut Therapy, so I'm not sure I'd want to be on 6. For example, I trim 1-2 vs Delver decks, which were my most common matchup at EW.

As far as Flusterstorm maindeck goes, I liked Spell Pierce much better. As a maindeck inclusion, having the wider more versatile option is better in an unknown field. Countering planeswalkers, artifacts, and enchantments makes it much more usable, and much less of a dead card. Don't get my wrong though... in the matchups where I brought in Flusterstorm out of the board, it was insane everytime I played it. But still... I think a narrower card like Flusterstorm is better as a sideboard card. Spell Pierce countered quite a few non-instant/sorcery cards over the weekend.

Sam Roukas on camera at the SCG Washington Open, sitting at 5-0, playing D&T in game 6, currently at 1-1, playing my list with a couple of changes to the sideboard.

EDIT: A couple of misplays cost him the game at the end of the 3rd game, but the games were enjoyable to watch. I didn't like the aggressive EE for 1 to take out Vial, though.

I'm not sure why he boarded in the SoFI... SoFI is not meant for this matchup. SoFI is great to bring in against
D&T with other Stoneblade decks with TNN or fliers, but this deck can't punch through with a SoFI. Jitte is just much better, and Batterskull is also pretty solid otherwise.

I also saw that he left in FoW, which I also don't agree with. My board plan vs D&T is:

-1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
-4 Force of Will
-2 Spell Pierce
+1 Disenchant
+1 Council's Judgment
+1 Toxic Deluge
+1 Zealous Persecution
+2 Engineered Explosives
+1 Pithing Needle

An argument could be made to cut a Therapy instead of a Jace TMS, but sometimes Jace can be akward against Flickerwisps, Serra Avengers, a Mother of Runes protected creature, or a big enough board that can push through. Jace TMS is certainly fantastic in some spots, but I've found early Probe + Therapies to be especially brutal against D&T.

The deck doesn't need FoW or Spell Pierce postboard. Few lists are playing Cataclysm these days, and nothing else requires a counterspell in this matchup. The deck plays more than enough threats to power through opposing Council's Judgment, and enough ways to beat a Gideon, Ally of Zendikar.

Anyone know if Sam Roukas made day two?

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Originally Posted by Hanni

Anyone know if Sam Roukas made day two?

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I believe he made day two. I last tracked him at x-2, going into the last round.

EDIT: Confirmed that he made it in at x-2

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Originally Posted by Hanni

Sam Roukas on camera at the SCG Washington Open, sitting at 5-0, playing D&T in game 6, currently at 1-1, playing my list with a couple of changes to the sideboard.

EDIT: A couple of misplays cost him the game at the end of the 3rd game, but the games were enjoyable to watch. I didn't like the aggressive EE for 1 to take out Vial, though.

I'm not sure why he boarded in the SoFI... SoFI is not meant for this matchup. SoFI is great to bring in against
D&T with other Stoneblade decks with TNN or fliers, but this deck can't punch through with a SoFI. Jitte is just much better, and Batterskull is also pretty solid otherwise.

I also saw that he left in FoW, which I also don't agree with. My board plan vs D&T is:

-1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
-4 Force of Will
-2 Spell Pierce
+1 Disenchant
+1 Council's Judgment
+1 Toxic Deluge
+1 Zealous Persecution
+2 Engineered Explosives
+1 Pithing Needle

An argument could be made to cut a Therapy instead of a Jace TMS, but sometimes Jace can be akward against Flickerwisps, Serra Avengers, a Mother of Runes protected creature, or a big enough board that can push through. Jace TMS is certainly fantastic in some spots, but I've found early Probe + Therapies to be especially brutal against D&T.

The deck doesn't need FoW or Spell Pierce postboard. Few lists are playing Cataclysm these days, and nothing else requires a counterspell in this matchup. The deck plays more than enough threats to power through opposing Council's Judgment, and enough ways to beat a Gideon, Ally of Zendikar.

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I would keep FoW. If you happen to have FoW and a Blue card in hand against early turn Vial, you would pitch cast FoW, right? I don't see why one would take that option away. While Therapy is great with Mentor, I just don't see how Therapy by itself is great again Vial decks. Vial decks are so redundant with their threats.

Basically, if you don't run board wipes, your board presence will never be as threatening as Vail deck opponent's; you're forced to race to get connected with Jitte/SoFI. Compare to Terminus/K. Return, Deluge and Persecution are just... meh~. Persecution can't kill DRS, Deluge at sorcery speed is rough through Port.

Not sure if the decisions of Roukas are misplays, he's a pretty skillful former Miracles player.

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Originally Posted by twndomn

I would keep FoW. If you happen to have FoW and a Blue card in hand against early turn Vial, you would pitch cast FoW, right? I don't see why one would take that option away. While Therapy is great with Mentor, I just don't see how Therapy by itself is great again Vial decks. Vial decks are so redundant with their threats.

Basically, if you don't run board wipes, your board presence will never be as threatening as Vail deck opponent's; you're forced to race to get connected with Jitte/SoFI. Compare to Terminus/K. Return, Deluge and Persecution are just... meh~. Persecution can't kill DRS, Deluge at sorcery speed is rough through Port.

Not sure if the decisions of Roukas are misplays, he's a pretty skillful former Miracles player.

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I'm not saying Roukas isn't a skillfull player... I'm sure he's a better magic player than I am.

I wouldn't keep FoW. In game 1, I would Force a turn 1 Vial, yes. In postboard games, that's not what I want to be doing.

Therapy is fantastic. Vial is too slow to protect against Therapy during the first few turns. The way you win postboard is by attacking their resources, and Therapy is fantastic for that. Therapy is also good at stripping equipment out of an opponent's hand after they cast a SFM.

The postboard plan does involve board wipes, but I don't agree at all that the deck cannot build a more threating board presence without them.