It is, but I don't mind casting a one shot Displacer at instant speed that also brings along a 3/4 flying body.Quote:
Originally Posted by EunB
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It is, but I don't mind casting a one shot Displacer at instant speed that also brings along a 3/4 flying body.Quote:
Originally Posted by EunB
I think most of us can agree the reason to play white is Eldrazi Displacer at least as much as the Thalias.
The wrong assumption here is that you mostly displace your own creatures. But Displacer's strength comes from giving you outs to Lands, Show and Tell, Reanimator of all sorts and other decks you have no business winning as a pure Eldrazi deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by pocari79
Resto is nice but ultimately loses against Griselbrand - Eldrazi Displacer wins.
Pocari79's argument is taking out Reality Smasher and replacing it with Restoration Angel since Smasher is only a beater. He isn't saying taking out Displacer for Restoration Angel.Quote:
Originally Posted by hofzge
I now see he wanted to possibly take out 1 Displacer and 2 Smashers for 3 Angels. Hmmm, in person he never mentioned taking out a Displacer.
I understand now, but I would argue that it was phrased in a misunderstandable way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilkin
To compare the two:
Reality Smasher
- hard to block / Good Blocker (similar to Tarmogoyf)
- Very fast clock
- Often uncounterable
- Hard to kill -> discard / no Abrupt Decay
Restoration Angel:
- blocks Delver
- can save other creatures (arguably this function is already filled with Displacer)
- Hard to Kill -> no Abrupt Decay
- Hard to block (flies)
(- flier for Moat; corner case)
Play whatever you fancy, but be aware that you then only play about 7 Eldrazi and the Caverns become a bit worse.
For me Cavern has consistently been the best land and often I wait with playing Smashers until I can play them with Cavern.
Good day to everyone!
I have been running back a good amount of leagues and I think I have finally found the configuration I am happy with for the time being (actually just 5-0ed!)
I took inspiration on the manabase adjustments from Mikebrav's list that has been doing well on MODO, tweaked it, and decided to go with it.
Anyway, here is what I ran through with:
Creatures:24
4 Thalia, GoT
3 SFM
2 Revoker
4 Thalia, HC
4 Displacer
4 TKS
3 Smasher
Spells:11
4 Chalice
4 Mox Diamond
1 Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Dismember
Lands: 25
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
5 Plains
3 Karakas
4 Wasteland
SB: 15
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Coercive Portal
2 Disenchant
3 RIP
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Smasher
A couple things I initially rejected while trying this configuration
1. FOUR mox diamond: I really was not a fan of trying this, but it really did smooth out my draws and fix my mana more than I wanted, plus ramping to a 2mana play on turn 1 is huge. This also made the lone city of traitors feel much better!
2. STP: I've been one of the people playing the deck a bunch and eschewing the ol' reliable STP for 2 mana answers. That being said, the card is just good and I am sold on it, especially in the very popular eldrazi matchup.
Overall, the deck felt great and after jamming different iterations through 15-20 leagues, this is the one that feels the best!
Congrats on the 5-0, the list is really looking very streamlined among those of us consistently playing it, barring a few minor adjustments.
For you and the others playing Swords in the sideboard, what do you do vs the Delver matchups? Maybe I'm too paranoid about siding in STP vs decks that I also want to Chalice.
Thank you! As for the delver matchup, it really depends on which delver deck it is. Vs BUG (or if I see multiple AD's game 1), I will typically just board out chalice in place of the STPs. Vs Grixis/Four Color, I typically go with something along these lines:Quote:
Originally Posted by EunB
Grixis/Four Color
-2 Revoker, -1 Dismember, -1 City of Traitors
+4 STP
BUG:
-2 Revoker, -1 Dismember, -4 Chalice (Play)
+4 STP, +3 RIP
-2 Revoker, -4 Chalice, -1 Smasher, -1 City (Draw)
+4 STP, +2 RIP, +2 Thorn
If I see any TNNs, I will also bring in the SoFI
At least, that's what I try to do!
How do people feel about Thorn of Amethyst vs Sanctum Prelate in the sideboard? Thorn can be cast earlier, but isn't as hard of a "lock". Prelate is easier to kill.
I think there is no clear cut case of one being the right choice and the other being wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by EunB
Which one is better in a given list in regards to a specific tournament is depending largely on how the rest of your deck (including the mainboard) is configured and which matchups you want to address with the slots.
You want to have as high a chance as possible to get your disruption onto the board as fast as possible. Therefor Prelate gets worse in lists running only 3 Mox Diamonds/Lotus Petals. Thorn on the other hand gets better the more City of Traitors you run.
Both are good sideboard cards against combo decks, but their strength varies depending on the type of combo deck you are talking about and both offer utility in different non-combo-matchups. Thorn is easier to cast on turn 1, making it a much more appealing option against decks like B/R Reanimator, Belcher, TES. Prelate offers much more against decks that are not as fast but get hit harder by its ability then by Thorns taxing effect, like SnT, Omnishow, Miracles. So you would have to consider what kinds of decks you are expecting to face and against which of those you want the most efficient disruption post board.
I have tried both and have actually not been super impressed by either to be honest. I consider both valid options for the flex slots left in the board and switch between them and a bunch of other cards depending on changes I make to the rest of the list and what I expect other people to be playing.
For example last week I played a very sol-land heavy version because I wanted to try out Blade Splicer. Less white sources and the fact that I wasn’t expecting SnT to be played much meant I would never use Prelate in my board, because I wasn’t going to be able to reliably cast it early and one of the matchups it is most useful against was negligible. But in order to not lose too much game against control decks like Miracles, I played an additional Winter Orb in one of the other flex slots.
Tldr: Focusing simply on the abstract question of Thorn vs. Prelate and ignoring the rest of your list is the wrong question to ask when building your sideboard.
Let me rephrase. DisgruntledElk, why do you play Thorn over Prelate in your SB?
EunB,Quote:
Originally Posted by EunB
I play Thorn over prelate for a couple of reasons:
1. Mana-The consistency with which I can play a thorn is simply much higher. WW cost can be extremely difficult, and if I have 2 caverns, naming both "Human" can really hamstring my mana, as I may need a W source for either displacer or SFM. If you look at the hypergeometric Distribution, I will only reliably have WW by turn 4-5. 2 generic mana is very easy to have, many times on turn 1.
2. Speed-The Thorn simply comes down faster, and wrecking someone's mana starting on turn 1/2 is a much better (IMO) than only having a specific impact on T3.
3. Impact-In my experience, adding another 1 to the cost of all the noncreature spells is arguably better than shutting off one particular CMC. I like thorns in any combo matchup, and sometimes I will board it in against delver decks or Miracles. Prelate, in my opinion though, is more for the lands, miracles, and other fair decks (as the speed is a bigger concern in these matchups). If you are looking for a great card for miracles (a deck we are favored against IMO) or lands and the like, I could definitely see Prelate being the choice. That is just not what I try to angle my deck to beat.
4. Resilience-As the opponents are already bringing in as much removal as possible, I find that artifacts are just tougher to deal with than creatures.
Those are my big reasons I prefer Thorn to Prelate in the board. The biggest reason is the mana concerns. If your manabase can support it better and you are looking for what the prelate provides, then I can certainly understand the pick.
What do you define as reliable? With 15+ potential white sources (8 Plains/Karakas, 4 Cavern, 3-4 Mox Diamond) you have an above 70% chance to have 2 of them by turn 3. Matchups where you want to cast Prelate early are not the same ones that Displacer or SFM are good in. I am enticed by the speed of Thorn coming down on turn 1. Especially vs decks like BR Reanimator.Quote:
Originally Posted by DisgruntledElk
I'm a big fan of shutting down specific cmcs over taxing effects, particularly vs Lands and Omni. Prelate on 3 is just so hard for S&T decks to answer. I also don't hate siding chalice out and prelate in vs decks like BUG Delver.
In other news, I took the deck to a GPT today and ended in 4th going 3-1-1. My list was 99% the same as what I've posted before except I cut a Blessed Alliance for a SoFaI in the board -- kudos to Elk for the idea.
Round 1 was vs BUG Nic Fit. Warping Wail took out his Vet Explorer and TKS brought the beats. Game 2 t1 Copter went the distance while I disrupted him with TKS and Warping Wail.
Round 2 was vs Infect, t1 SFM fetched a Jitte and wiped his board. Game 2 Displacer shut him out early and TKS closed out the game.
Round 3 I won game 1 vs BUG Delver off of an early SFM getting Skull, but game 2 I mulled to 5 and died quickly and g3 flooded out hardcore when I needed any creature or interaction.
Round 4 vs Sneak & Show Thalia 2.0 wrecked house t1 off Diamond and Tomb. Game 2 Thalia 1.0, 2.0 and TKS killed him quickly.
Round 5 I IDd with a friend who was on BR Reanimator. Playing it out for fun I ended up winning 2-1 based almost entirely on Karakas in the opener to bounce his T1 Griselbrand.
I declined to play through top 8 as I will not be making it to Louisville and the prizing was based on Swiss results.
I define "reliable" as 90%. You ask a good question though. 90% is just the number I deem acceptable to call reliable. Anything under 80% for me is pretty unreliable.Quote:
Originally Posted by EunB
As for your tournament results, I am glad to hear you effectively went 4-1 and liked the SoFI! The speed of Thorn is pretty key for me, and it is certainly worth trying. That said, if you feel your mana is good enough and you prefer the card, I see no reason to not play prelate. BR Reanimator is a huge pain in the a** though, and having turn 1 interaction is pretty significant. That deck is so miserable I'm tempted to take a page out of MikeBrav's list and just run 4 Leyline in the board and call it a day.
One thing to note about your stance on prelate though is that you find it incredibly useful against Show and Tell variants. I may have just had some great luck, but I feel I have a plain fantastic matchup there (better than when I was on death and taxes even.) As such, I wouldn't base your thorn vs. prelate decision on that matchup.
After one month without any magic games i decided to go with the same 75 pile of cards i played at my last tournament. Yesterday it was a bigger crowd (33, so 6 rounds) for the last tournament of the year at my area.
I got the following matchups:
1:2 Br Redanimator
2:1 Rw Goblins
2:1 Merfolk
2:1 Elves
2:0 4c Delver
2:0 BUG Shardless feat. Leovold
Afterall we had 4 players with 5:1, sadly i got the weakest oppscore so only 4th place. Overall i am happy with the list (8:2 total for the last tournaments) and this time, on the one side i was forced to take more mulligans but on the other side got rewarded to see strong sideboard cards like Pontiff or Batterskull.
Some Details:
Br Redanimator isn't a bad matchup (i even have 2 C.Priests main!) but my opponent won the die roll and managed to start with Chancellor of the Annex in his opening hand all three games... last game i wasn't able to handle Sire of Insanity missing a huge bunch of outs (smasher, tks, jailer, thalia 2.0 because i had thalia 1.0 on the field etc.) - overall very frustrating because i don't fear the matchup.
Against Goblins big Eldrazi Bodies paired with Swords and Equipment worked fine, even Elspeth appeared. More or less the same was true for the rest of the "tribal crew". Merfolk the only issue is TNN, so you need more power to push one's way through the fish crowd. Against elves i crawled back with mull 5, but solid draws. Thalia 2.0 crippled his development, so he glimpses for value but wasn't able to finish. He lost his field against Pontiff (and my 2 Jitte Counters that i hold back for his 2 toughness guys) - TKS is also a really nice creature here because he offers a good body + disruption.
Against Delver i got back in the game with Palace Jailer against his Zombie-Fish and won the other game with solid Beats and Jitte.
Shardless BUG was grindy as always, especially with his nasty Leovold (3 card draws if you kill him with Jitte...) but i won it thanks to Stoneforge, Batterskull and Jitte that played well together with the rest of the team. As i mentioned a lot, i don't fear BUG Shardless with this deck - it is very difficult compared to the eldrazi experience.
Fun Fact: I only got one Game with Chalice on the field :laugh:
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@Thorn vs Prelate: I always prefered Thorn, because he works so well with a) Stompy Mana and sometimes it is critical as a Turn 1 play b) really nasty if paired with Thalia 1.0 (even 2.0 if she prevents your opponent to build up a manabase). WW is castable at this deck, but Thorn is so much faster in a lot of situations and your opponent also needs a different way to answer it (so no Pyroclasm, Massacre etc.). Against Show&Tell based decks, Prelate might be better but even this combo can go another way and slam stuff like Sneak Attack on the field if your Prelate prevents spells for 3 mana (and you can bet to see some kind of Pyroclasm/Kozilek's Return/red spot removal or something uncommon like Jace G2). For me it is clear, i wan't to beat combo with this deck and we have enough cards for turn 2-x to follow up (TKS etc.) so it is critical to get another "Chalice" like card besides Mox+Thalia 1.0 starts.
I agree with DisgruntledElk here.
@Swords to Plowshares: I play 3 at side and i am very happy with them - against a lot of creature base decks they are really strong and the situations like: "chalice at 1 and facing something like Angler with Swords in hand and die (one my testgames)" aren't common enough. Swords hit 99% of the field so you only need some solutions for stuff like TNN (Pontiff for example) but as i mentioned a lot, even nasty creatures like TNN can be beat without any dedicated answer. Overall with access to white i want to play the best spot removal of legacy and not unhealth solutions like Dismember.
Seems like many people seem to be shaving or cutting Revoker or Pithing Needle altogether. For those who are light on Revoker/Needle effects: do you miss them? I'm especially interested in how not running Pithing Needle specifically is working out, since setting it on Port or Wasteland seems to be an important play in the D+T matchup, and it has a lot of utility against Lands. My sideboards look similar to the ones posted here except I was playing Needles in the slots where people were playing Thorns or Prelates just because I thought we were already good enough versus combo.
I only play 2 Revoker, mainly for the reason because he is a cc2 colorless creature that have some utility in most matchups, which means he isn't so bad for random game 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by iostream
Against DnT i never needed a Needle (hell i don't play any cause of Chalice) - my goal is to gain a position in this matchups that will not allow the DnT player to control the match. I am the attacker, i lay down the threats, DnT has to react or risk to get overrun. Port/Waste is only good if you don't have enough pressure and allow DnT to use Mana mainly for Manadenial (which means also Vial is active). I have 2 Revoker and 2 C. Priest to shut down Vial and overall Stompy-Mana which means lay down more high cc bombs than DnT can. It is critical to be a head on the field in this matchup. You have also your own Wastelands to get rid of stuff like Port. Ramp out Thalia 2.0 early and DnT will face a hard situation because they also play a lot of nonbasics, can't deploy fast blockers, can't use Stoneforge-Batterskull or Vial-Combat tricks. Even the Karakas from your Opponent enter tapped. So they need a fast removal, but the same is true for TKS, Smasher, Displacer etc so you simply overload them with better creatures (only a few of DnT creatures are strong enough to fight your Eldrazi). My side has Stoneforge + Batterskull, Swords as Removal, Pontiff etc which will all do more than a Needle. DnT is not easy, but more a 50:50 fight and it is more important who gets the right cards - remember both decks rely on topdecks and share some similiar cards/tactics.
Lands is already not a bad matchup, you have a fast game plan, you have Displacer, Karakas, Wasteland, Chalice, Thalia 2.0, RiP etc. which means a lot of interaction. Since Chalice is way better here than against DnT, Needle wouldn't be me card of choice (what will you name? Port, Waste, Thespian, Maze - all can be critical!). Both decks can have a broken start. You have a lot more tools (mainly white Cards) than Eldrazi to fight against Lands and with Plains and Mox your Manabase should be more stable against Waste/Port. Afterall you can troll the lands player with Magus of the Moon (4 Mox + 4 Cavern should work well, most Manadenial will aim for your Sollands) which sometimes can be cast Turn 1!
You leave Chalice in against D+T? Vial is kind of the only 1-cmc card that really matters. On the draw, this seems especially bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by MD.Ghost
As for the rest of the post, it is interesting, and I will have to think a little harder about how I play the matchup.
Nope, Chalice goes out vs DnT, i meant I don't one mana Spells in a chalice deck, besides Swords because it is a nice switch against creature heavy decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by iostream
Even though MD and I run very different lists (I'm not positive though, haven't looked in a while), it seems we board very similarly but likely play the matchup differently. Against DnT, I love having 4+ land hands, as they will almost always try to wasteland you out of the game. I board like this:Quote:
Originally Posted by iostream
OUT: -4 Chalice, -4 Thalia, GoT, -1 Thalia, HC
IN: +4 STP, +2 Coercive Portal, +1 Smasher, +2 Disenchant. The matchup feels good if you can have any semblance of a solid draw, as TKS and Smasher are just too big for them to fight, and Displacer just straight-up beats them if they don't have a revoker. Even then, Displacer is just bigger than most of their creatures. I board out the Thalias because: 1. Too many Karakas, 2. I'm bringing in 4CMC noncreature spells.
Also, looks like someone just 5-0'ed with my main 60, (only different cards were -3 RIP, -1 SoFI, +4 Leyline of the Void)
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/531864#online Deck has been really smooth (had a few 4-1s over the last few days), but I just haven't been able to justify running Leyline over RIP. Rest in Peace is just so good in the Tarmogoyf fair deck matchups that I have trouble cutting it. Any input here? I definitely see the benefit of both.