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I just see a lot of merit in the card, because it accelerates into a dredger in the graveyard while being able to counter a Cage or Deathrite Shaman on the draw. It's basically another set of Forces, with the added benefit of playing more lands in the deck with a huge bonus of a built-in discard outlet with said counter.
I'm not defending it as much as I'm trying to rationalize its utility. While I was playing it (Foil), the more and more I liked it.
Thanks. Also worth noting: Chain of Vapor is in my sideboard. It's not only relevant against a card like Leyline, but Marit Lage, as well. The added density of lands to hardcast spells is also worth mentioning.Quote:
Originally Posted by Unlif3
I played Dredge years ago and I have good memories with this deck. Now I'm coming back to play it thanks to this result at the GP, but some things have changed in the meantime. :eek:
This list features Dread Return and Silent Gravestone, both in the sideboard. Is this a different game plan based on being on the draw or on the play?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyrus
I will explain with an example: against Turbo Depths, on the draw I put Silent Gravestone and Firestorm (taking out Breakthrough and some Ichorid / Putrid Imp / Streeth Wraith). On the play, I put only Dread Return, Ashen Rider and Blazing Archon. Is it right or have I done something wrong?
I think it's definitely reasonable to have DR on the play and Gravestone on the draw in some matchups :) I'd just think about it more generally as "what will be my gameplan in this game?" For quite a few matchups, only one of them really makes sense (eg, boarding in Dread Return/targets against Czech Pile/Miracles probably isn't the most effective, whereas Gravestone's pretty sweet; vice versa for Storm, where many of their lists run Gravestone as well :P), but the plan of "race them on the play, grind them on the draw" makes sense to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex_UNLIMITED
I ... don't hate this. Maybe I'll take it out for a spin on stream.Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Keller
Thanks for all your hard work, Michael!
Further question about holding priority with this deck.
Consider the example that I have just dredged 20 cards (as a consequence of Breakthrough resolving, say), and among them were 2 Cabal Therapy, 2 Bridge from Below, and 2 Narcomoeba.
Of course, the Narcomoebas are put into play when the dredge effect resolves.
This would seem, to an opponent, to be the perfect time to sacrifice or burn his own creature in order to exile Bridge. However, I want as many zombies as possible.
Now, since the rules text say that Sacrificing something "moves it immediately into the graveyard", and this is the cost of Therapy's flashback, it seems I can get 2 zombies without my opponent being able to react.
However, since Therapy is a sorcery, I have to wait for the stack to resolve before I can sac the second Narcomoeba for the second Therapy; thus my opponent can "in response" to the first Therapy get his own creature into his graveyard, thus exiling Bridge.
First question: Is this the correct interpretation?
Second question: Do I need to say "retain priority" before sacrificing the first Narcomoeba?
Third question: Is this the best play, as Dredge?
Once your opponent indicates that Breakthrough resolves, he doesn't get priority until it has completely done so. While Narcomoeba triggers are announced when dredge rolls them into the yard, they cannot resolve until Breakthrough has. Therefore, your opponent does not gain priority until their triggers hit the stack. Since they are not in play at that point, I'm sure they will pass, with the assumption that they are working towards removing Bridges, and not, say, Extracting the Narco. Since you are the active player, you again gain priority once the triggers resolved. If Therapy is your first action, sacrificing the Narco is part of the cost. Again, they do not have priority to act until Therapy is placed on the stack. However, when the Narco hits the yard, it creates the Bridge trigger, before Therapy resolves. Considering you are playing Dredge, you very likely have to pass priority there. This is where your opponent can take action to put a creature into his yard. If your opponent has done so, the "exile" clause of Bridge will trigger and resolve before the "zombie" trigger, exiling it. Since Bridge has an intervening "if" trigger, if not in your yard, the "zombie" trigger will fizzle, and you get nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Unspeakable Elvis
To be clear, you cannot flashback Therapy when there's still a Narcomoeba trigger on the stack. Only once both triggers (and whatever your opponent might do in response to those triggers) have resolved can you flashback Therapy.
Also, the best time for your opponent to burn one of his own creatures in order to kill your Bridges is when your Narcomoeba triggers are on the stack. That way your Bridges are gone before the Narcomoebas hit the field.
As to your second question, you cannot keep priority to cast another sorcery in response to the first one. That doesn't work.
Note that my second question was concerning the first sorcery; obviously one can't case a sorcery while there's something on the stack, because it's a sorcery, not an instant :wink:
Ah yes, I didn't take into account that Narcomoeba itself has a trigger to enter the battlefield, and that Bridge triggers to create a zombie. Obviously an opponent can respond to either one of these to get stop the zombie coming into play.
I'm also guessing that there's no good way to play this; I mean a dredge deck that doesn't dredge as much as possible is pointless. All you can say is GG for taking out the Bridges and hope your Ichorids and Narcos do the job...
This :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by Unspeakable Elvis
Welp, DRS and Probe out: https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...ate-2018-07-02
What are our moves going forward? It's good that we don't have to fight t1 DRS anymore, but I liked the naivete of opponents thinking that just a DRS was enough to win against us :P Maybe trimming some Wraiths for Carefuls again, and moving the Firestorms in the sb to be more DR targets or enchantment hate?
Also scared that Reanimator might see a rise, which either means 1) one of our worst mu's is way more common [ugh] or 2) everyone starts playing leylines everywhere [even more ugh]. But hopefully I'm just overreacting :)
you also play leylines vs reanimator, people have played them in the past, also good in the mirror and versus lands which can be tough if you're not fast. the Firestorms probably go away, but scooze is still real but less common. you can probably just play more reactive hate if you want it since people will likely be packing more non creature pieces. Basically reading what dredge used to be before drs is probably the way to go. so basically 2012Quote:
Originally Posted by notkevin
EDIT: also expect to see surgical in full force, so having a plan or reaction to that may help, either diversify(amalgams maybe?) or just remember how to play against it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by notkevin
I'm probably dropping 2 Wraiths for +1 careful study, +1 dread return and, in the sb, dropping 1 dread return and maybe 1 Iona/firestorm for 2 faerie macabre
Silent Gravestone is good against BRx Reanimator, because they can only use Exhume, that can be named with Cabal Therapy. UBx Reanimator have Show and Tell too, but maybe is slow against LED Dredge.Quote:
Originally Posted by notkevin
Couple things we need to think about atleast I think we need to revaluate.
- Street Wraith, keeping them in or switching them to some combination or Dread Return with a target and Breakthrough/Study or maybe an Amalgam or 2.
- Firestorm, keep them in the side, lower the amoutn or just change them to some other card that takes out creatures like Contagion.
I personally think we can take out the Wraiths, put in some more Studies, a Dread Return with a dedicated target. Basicly put a combo finish in the main deck.
Firestorm I`m not to sure about yet. I really love that card and it has won me many games in the past so I`m a little hesistant about taking it out. I know Contagion will be a very good card because it takes out Cantaignment Priest for example but Firestorm sweeps the board clear when facing Elves.
So what are your thoughts?
What are your toughts on archon of valor's reach as DR target in the SB?https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...23d1558d11.jpg
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Probably worse than iona in most or all matchups and I even think that Iona isn't necessary or stock in LED Dredge anyways. In matchups where it might be better than Iona, you also have to think about if it is better than ashen rider which I think is the best target.
So I Top 8'd two medium sized Legacy tournaments with Dredge in the last months (~65 and ~25 players). Before the ban Silent Gravestone was MVP, but since DRS is not a threat anymore I get the urge to not board anything. What are everyone's experiences with sideboarding in the new meta? I saw a lot of control shells: Stoneblade, Grixis Control, Miracles. They pack a variety of hate, e.g. Spellbomb, Grafdigger's Cage, Surgical, Containment Priest, RiP. Boarding Gravestone feels underwhelming. In most of these matchups I bank on getting a few early therapies through. But the chances to do this are reduced by siding out Breakthrough for Gravestone.
But without Gravestone Surgical on Cabal Therapy is backbreaking, as we lose our most important sac outlet and therefore Zombie token generator. So I was thinking, what if I improve my resiliency against Surgical by diversifying the threats? Next event I will try 3 Nether Shadoes instead of 3 Gravestones in the side.
What are your thoughts on this?
My SB atm is this:
3 Silent Gravestone
3 Firestorm
2 Dread Return
1 Iona
1 Ashen Rider
2 Lotus Petal
2 Serenity
1 Wear//Tear
Edit: @Orim67, I just looked up your newest list on mtgtop8, I like your SB with 3 Wear//Tear! Also cutting Iona might be correct. But I really don't like the LotV, but this may just be a concession to the online meta, which I heard is full of RB Reanimator.
Btw, how so you SB against Infect? I was unsure about Firestorm but boarded it in. Also, Wear//Tear seems good.
Congrats on the top 8's Ahab.
Hello all, went 4-3 (dropped before the last round) in the legacy classic in Worcester this weekend. Most of the hate I saw was Leyline and Surgical. I think Wear//Tear was a sideboard MVP, although I didn't bring in gravestone aggressively enough since I was expecting more Leylines, RIP, etc. from certain decks than surgical.
I had good luck with gravestone in the past. I think I saw advice on this thread previously about using gravestone for matchups with surgical but without the full suite of soft counters (i.e. miracles but not delver), particularly if they play snapcaster, which served me well. Not sure if it should come in against blade. I didn't bring it in for those matchups, and found myself wishing I did. It also presumably has some play against reanimator if you don't want to devote the anti-hate slots to 4 leyline. Delver matches got very grindy, but it felt like inevitability was on our side again. Deck felt great, even in the face of a lot of graveyard hate.Quote:
Boarding Gravestone feels underwhelming.
My matchups and lists were as follows.
Round 1: Sneak and Show (2-0) (Show and Tell revealing my Ashen Rider was key)
Round 2: RUG Delver (2-1)
Round 3: Death and Taxes (2-0)
Round 4: Goblins (1-2)
Round 5: Bant Blade (2-1)
Round 6: UW Blade (0-2) (Got blown to absolute pieces by multiple stifles, but I had played this player before, they knew the match up quite well and are very good IMO)
Round 7: Turbo Depths (1-2)
Round 8: Dropped
Maindeck:
3 Cephalid Coliseum
2 City of Brass
4 Mana Confluence
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Faithless Looting
2 Putrid Imp
3 Careful Study
3 Breakthrough
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Golgari Grave-troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
2 Prized Amalgam
1 Dread Return
1 Dragonlord Kolaghan
Sideboard:
1 Ashen Rider
1 Dread Return
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
3 Firestorm
1 Ichorid
1 Ingot Chewer
2 Serenity
3 Silent Gravestone
2 Wear//Tear
How did you feel about the combo kill in the main? Do you think it's correct to drop Street Wraith for that in the new meta?Quote:
Originally Posted by FrabjousDaze